Discussion:
DOS/360 News
(too old to reply)
cube1us
2003-08-18 23:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Well, I'd hoped to keep this one in the bag until I was done, but
that isn't going to work out, because I will need some help.

We also have original distribution tapes for DOS/360 R26 (not DOS/VS,
here, but plain DOS). We have two tapes of basic materials and one
tape of optional materials. The tapes have not been posted anywhere
yet.

It has a flavor of INTDSK, just like DOS/VS (see DOS3350.TXT in the
DOS/VS files area if it is still there), but I am having problems
making it go. Here is what I know so far:

A. I IPL the tape. Wait. Loc 0 is blank
B. devinit 00c intdsk.jcl (see below)
C. Machine runs, then Waits. Loc 0 has "1301A" -- an action
related error code. First sign of trouble.
D. do an "ext" (external interrupt). Loc 0 now has "1050A" --
another action code. Also, as a result of this, all of the
JCL statements from SYSRDR (after SYSLOG) thru EXEC are
echoed on the console

Things that would help:
- Anyone who has any memory of the error codes from DOS/360 INTDSK
- Anyone have access to a copy of DOS/360 sysgen? (C24-5033)
- Anyone know if the device numbers CUU below might be making
something unhappy?

Here is the intdsk.jcl I am trying.

// JOB INTDSK
// DATE 08/15/75
// ASSGN SYSLOG,X'01F',C1 [Not C2 - no 3270 here]
// ASSGN SYSRDR,X'00C',R1
// ASSGN SYSOPT,X'24F',D1
// ASSGN SYSLST,X'00E',L1
// ASSGN SYSIPT,X'180',T2
// EXEC
// UID IQ
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
// EOJ
// JOB RESTOR
// DATE 08/15/75
// ASSGN SYSLOG,X'01F',C1
// ASSGN SYSLST,X'00E',L1
// ASSGN SYSIPT,X'180',T2
// ASSGN SYS005,X'24F',D1
// ASSGN SYS006,X'180',T2
// EXEC
// END

And here is the config

#
# Configuration file for Hercules ESA/390 emulator
#
# Updated for Hercules 2.x
#

CPUSERIAL 000611
CPUMODEL 0050
MAINSIZE 8
XPNDSIZE 0
CNSLPORT 3270
NUMCPU 1
LOADPARM ........
SYSEPOCH 1928
TZOFFSET -0500
# TODDRAG 1
# OSTAILOR OS/390
# ARCHMODE S/370

000C 3505
000D 3525 dev/pch00d.txt ascii
000E 1403 dev/prt00e.txt
001F 1052
0180 3420
024F 2311 dosres.2311 (We are trying to init this)



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Volker Bandke
2003-08-19 06:05:54 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I now nada about DOS, but I notice something in your config file:
You have commented the ARCHMODE parameter. In version 1 this
defaulted to S/370, but no longer in Version 2 You might want to
remove the comment sign before the ARCHMODE parm






--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

"Nuclear war would really set back cable." - Ted Turner

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3

iQA/AwUBP0G+QR5trGyhAF0wEQLK7gCg40FqkqqHvzvx2KoHY1Fw/hMO66MAoMY7
oPX6XdIxGI5a60r7vB9VQ45u
=wFZq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



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cube1us
2003-08-20 01:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Red Herring. I have been testing under both version 1.71 and 2.12.
At the time I copied, I had been testing under 1.71.

Jay Jaeger
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
You have commented the ARCHMODE parameter. In version 1 this
defaulted to S/370, but no longer in Version 2 You might want to
remove the comment sign before the ARCHMODE parm
--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
"Nuclear war would really set back cable." - Ted Turner
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3
iQA/AwUBP0G+QR5trGyhAF0wEQLK7gCg40FqkqqHvzvx2KoHY1Fw/hMO66MAoMY7
oPX6XdIxGI5a60r7vB9VQ45u
=wFZq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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snhstq
2003-08-19 10:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Well, I'd hoped to keep this one in the bag until I was done, but
that isn't going to work out, because I will need some help.
We also have original distribution tapes for DOS/360 R26 (not
DOS/VS,
Post by cube1us
here, but plain DOS). We have two tapes of basic materials and one
tape of optional materials. The tapes have not been posted
anywhere yet.
A wish comes true for me. Any idea when they will be poated ? I can
hardly wait !
Post by cube1us
C. Machine runs, then Waits. Loc 0 has "1301A" -- an action
related error code. First sign of trouble.
D. do an "ext" (external interrupt). Loc 0 now has "1050A" --
another action code. Also, as a result of this, all of the
JCL statements from SYSRDR (after SYSLOG) thru EXEC are
echoed on the console
dosres.2311 (We are trying to init this)
My 2 cents: 1301 is a disk drive in the 360 era
and 1050 is a console printer.

Regards
Henk Stegeman


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John Summerfield
2003-08-19 10:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
C. Machine runs, then Waits. Loc 0 has "1301A" -- an action
related error code. First sign of trouble.
D. do an "ext" (external interrupt). Loc 0 now has "1050A" --
another action code. Also, as a result of this, all of the
JCL statements from SYSRDR (after SYSLOG) thru EXEC are
echoed on the console
dosres.2311 (We are trying to init this)
My 2 cents: 1301 is a disk drive in the 360 era
A disk drive is likely (the second digit is a three), but pre S/360 -
the first digit's a two for S/360 devices.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Copyright John Summerfield. Reproduction prohibited.


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cube1us
2003-08-20 01:45:41 UTC
Permalink
I noticed those numbers too -- but they are another Red Herring.
1301's were not supported on DOS/360, and certainly not under DOS.
Actually, by then IBM had renamed the 1301 the 1302. But it was only
for attachment on 1410's and 709x machines and perhaps a few others.

As for when they get posted, the answer is the time honored "it
depends". I'd much rather post them with at least a version of
dos3350.txt to get folks started. But if I cannot get past the
current hurdle in a couple of weeks, they will probably get posted
sooner.

Remember: Until we get a system running, this is only what we
*think* we have.

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
Well, I'd hoped to keep this one in the bag until I was done, but
that isn't going to work out, because I will need some help.
We also have original distribution tapes for DOS/360 R26 (not
DOS/VS,
Post by cube1us
here, but plain DOS). We have two tapes of basic materials and one
tape of optional materials. The tapes have not been posted
anywhere yet.
A wish comes true for me. Any idea when they will be poated ? I can
hardly wait !
Post by cube1us
C. Machine runs, then Waits. Loc 0 has "1301A" -- an action
related error code. First sign of trouble.
D. do an "ext" (external interrupt). Loc 0 now has "1050A" --
another action code. Also, as a result of this, all of the
JCL statements from SYSRDR (after SYSLOG) thru EXEC are
echoed on the console
dosres.2311 (We are trying to init this)
My 2 cents: 1301 is a disk drive in the 360 era
and 1050 is a console printer.
Regards
Henk Stegeman
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peter_flass
2003-08-20 13:20:52 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "cube1us" <***@c...> wrote:
My DOS knowledge goes *way* back, but is it possible that the program
is loading the message code so that it will be displayed by the panel
lights, and then expecting you to dial in an address and hit RUN to
continue? ISTR that some programs could operate like this in the
absence of both a console and a card-reader.


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cube1us
2003-08-21 01:06:22 UTC
Permalink
I am well past that point now. It is reading in control cards and
displaying them on the console.

Jay Jaeger
Post by peter_flass
My DOS knowledge goes *way* back, but is it possible that the
program
Post by peter_flass
is loading the message code so that it will be displayed by the panel
lights, and then expecting you to dial in an address and hit RUN to
continue? ISTR that some programs could operate like this in the
absence of both a console and a card-reader.
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snhstq
2003-08-19 12:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
- Anyone who has any memory of the error codes from DOS/360 INTDSK
- Anyone have access to a copy of DOS/360 sysgen? (C24-5033)
- Anyone know if the device numbers CUU below might be making
something unhappy?
May be this helps:
http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/360/C24-5022-4_DOS_operGuide.pdf

Regards Henk


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cube1us
2003-08-20 01:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately, no, at least not so far. I have that (that is how I
know the number of the manual I do not have and would for sure answer
the questions.

The message numbers are different, and don't appear in the manual you
refer to, unfortunately.

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
- Anyone who has any memory of the error codes from DOS/360 INTDSK
- Anyone have access to a copy of DOS/360 sysgen? (C24-5033)
- Anyone know if the device numbers CUU below might be making
something unhappy?
http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/360/C24-5022-4_DOS_operGuide.pdf
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-08-20 02:46:06 UTC
Permalink
Good news. Finally some progress. I turned on the I/O tracing on
00c, 01f, 24f and 00e to see what it might tell me. It told me much
more about what was going on, and a lot faster.

First thing I noticed was that the 1301A comes after it read in the
DATE card:

.....
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140D1 D6C240C9 D5E3C4E2 D2404040 //
JOB INTDSK
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C4 C1E3C540 F0F861F1 F561F7F5 //
DATE 08/15/75
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8

r 0
R:00000000:K:06=F1F3F0F1 C1400000 00000000 00000000 1301A ..........
R:00000010:K:06=00000000 0168026C FF050080 0F000A40 .......%.......
R:00000020:K:06=01070002 5F001674 00000000 00000000 ....^...........
R:00000030:K:06=00003F00 00000000 FF050000 6F0016D4 ............?..M

If I give it an ext at that point, this happens:

ext
+
Interrupt key depressed
External interrupt: Interrupt key
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C4 C1E3C540 F0F861F1 F561F7F5 //
DATE 08/15/75
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3D6C76B //
ASSGN SYSLOG,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3D6C76B //
ASSGN SYSLOG,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D9C4D96B //
ASSGN SYSRDR,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D9C4D96B //
ASSGN SYSRDR,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D6D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSOPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D6D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSOPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3E2E36B //
ASSGN SYSLST,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3E2E36B //
ASSGN SYSLST,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 C9D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSIPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 C9D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSIPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C5 E7C5C340 40404040 40404040 //
EXEC
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8

At this point, Loc 0 contains the code 1050A.

If I take out the date card, then I get this:

000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
CCW=0017D8 +
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140D3 D6C74040 40404040 40404040 // LOG
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140D1 D6C240C9 D5E3C4E2 D2404040 //
JOB INTDSK
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140D1 D6C240C9 D5E3C4E2 D2404040 //
JOB INTDSK
...
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C5 E7C5C340 40404040 40404040 //
EXEC
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8

And, again, Loc 0 has 1050A.

If the date card is first or 2nd, loc 0 has code 1040A.

So, clearly the 1301A is complaining about the date card. So now, it
would appear,
it is complaining about the EXEC card, or, perhaps, complaining that
it has
never seen a valid date card.

And THEN it hit me. DUH. Maybe this old thing wants a JULIAN date.

Now we get this...

000C:Stat=0400 Count=0000 CCW=000000
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140D3 D6C74040 40404040 40404040 // LOG
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140D3 D6C74040 40404040 40404040 // LOG
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140D1 D6C240C9 D5E3C4E2 D2404040 //
JOB INTDSK
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140D1 D6C240C9 D5E3C4E2 D2404040 //
JOB INTDSK
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C4 C1E3C540 F7F5F1F9 F5404040 //
DATE 75195
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C4 C1E3C540 F7F5F1F9 F5404040 //
DATE 75195
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3D6C76B //
ASSGN SYSLOG,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3D6C76B //
ASSGN SYSLOG,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D6D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSOPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
001F:CCW=090017E8 20000019=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D6D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSOPT,
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D6D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSOPT+
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3E2E36B //
ASSGN SYSLST,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
001F:CCW=090017E8 20000019=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3E2E36B //
ASSGN SYSLST,
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017C8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 D3E2E36B //
ASSGN SYSLST,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 C9D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSIPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
001F:CCW=090017E8 20000019=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 C9D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSIPT,
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017C8
000C:CCW=020017E8 20000050=>616140C1 E2E2C7D5 40E2E8E2 C9D7E36B //
ASSGN SYSIPT,
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140C5 E7C5C340 C9D5E3C4 E2D24040 //
EXEC INTDSK
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017D8
001F:CCW=090017E8 2000000E=>616140C5 E7C5C340 C9D5E3C4 E2D24040 //
EXEC INTDSK
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0017C8
001F:CCW=090013A8 20000028=>C3D6D5E3 D9D6D340 C3C1D9C4 40C1D5C1
CONTROL CARD ANA
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=001358
000C:CCW=020014A4 00000050=>06609500 60004166 00014740 365C8950 .-n.-
...... .*i&
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>616140E4 C9C440C9 D8404040 40404040 //
UID IQ
000C:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=0013A8
001F:CCW=0900143E 20000015=>E4E3C9D3 C9E3E840 D4D6C4C9 C6C9C5D9
UTILITY MODIFIER
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=001358
001F:CCW=090014A4 20000050=>616140E4 C9C440C9 D8404040 40404040 //
UID IQ
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=001358
001F:CCW=09001424 20000012=>C9D5E5C1 D3C9C440 D7C1D9C1 D4C5E3C5
INVALID PARAMETE
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
001F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=001358
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00070000 0F000A40

And the console now has:

CONTROL CARD ANALYSIS AND CHECKING
// UID IQ
INVALID PARAMETER

Here is the current state of the control cards:

// LOG
// JOB INTDSK
// DATE 75195
// ASSGN SYSLOG,X'01F',C1
// ASSGN SYSOPT,X'24F',D1
// ASSGN SYSLST,X'00E',L1
// ASSGN SYSIPT,X'180',T2
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
// EOJ
// JOB RESTOR
// DATE 08/15/75
// ASSGN SYSLOG,X'01F',C1
// ASSGN SYSLST,X'00E',L1
// ASSGN SYSIPT,X'180',T2
// ASSGN SYS005,X'24F',D1
// ASSGN SYS006,X'180',T2
// EXEC
// END

Definite progress!

Jay Jaeger



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snhstq
2003-08-20 18:44:43 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "cube1us" <***@c...> wrote:
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
example to init a disk under DOS/VS:

// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&

Regards Henk


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cube1us
2003-08-21 01:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the suggestion, but....

These cards I am starting with are actually known to work with
DOS/VS.

Still, this will give us some more things to try.

I can see in the tape image strings UID, STRTADR=( and EXTENT=(, so I
suspect this is some small thing.

Thanks.

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-08-21 01:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Thanks again. I tried the // UID IR,C1,R=(0027003). Now I am
getting message 4404A, and *that* message *is* documented in my DOS
operators guide -- it means that it cannot find the expected F4 in
the VTOC. So, I'll either need one with a proper VTOC or no VTOC at
all.

Here is the associated trace:

024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000300 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88 00000003 ....-
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 8 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 1 kl 4 dl 24 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88 00000003 ....-
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 28 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 2 kl 4 dl 144 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88 00000003 ....-
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 148 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 3 kl 4 dl 80 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00
Count=0000 +
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: reading 4 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 80 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 =>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 CCW=001AA0
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:ckddasd: reading 0 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 8 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 =>00000000 00000000 E2C3D9E3
C3C80000 ........SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 CCW=001AA0

(SCRTCH is what I actually labelled the pack with dasdinit).

So, I'll try some packs I initialized with IBCDASD for OS/360, and
see what happens. (Copes of packs, of course... 8^) )
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-08-21 01:58:01 UTC
Permalink
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).

The suggestion on the UID card helped clear that particular hurdle.
To get around the F4 DSCB issue, Icopied dlib01.2311 from my OS360
directory, and it started formatting.

Messages on console are now (hopefully no typos...)

...
// EXEC INTDSK
CONTROL CARD ANALYSIS AND LABEL CHECKING
UTILITY MODIFIER CARD
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
SURFACE ANALYSIS AND HA-R0 GENERATION
SYSOPT

But.... Now our old friend "command reject" at cylinder 200 has
appeared. Sigh.

024F:CCW=150016A0 40000E78=>00C80000 00000E70 55555555
55555555 .H..............
024F:Stat=0E40 Count=0E78
024F:Sense=80000000 00C80002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
024F:Sense=CMDREJ
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00060000 F0FFFFFF

Still, definite progress.

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Thanks again. I tried the // UID IR,C1,R=(0027003). Now I am
getting message 4404A, and *that* message *is* documented in my DOS
operators guide -- it means that it cannot find the expected F4 in
the VTOC. So, I'll either need one with a proper VTOC or no VTOC at
all.
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000300 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 8 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 1 kl 4 dl 24 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 28 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 2 kl 4 dl 144 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 148 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 3 kl 4 dl 80 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00
Count=0000 +
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: reading 4 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 80 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 =>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 CCW=001AA0
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:ckddasd: reading 0 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 8 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 =>00000000 00000000 E2C3D9E3
C3C80000 ........SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 CCW=001AA0
(SCRTCH is what I actually labelled the pack with dasdinit).
So, I'll try some packs I initialized with IBCDASD for OS/360, and
see what happens. (Copes of packs, of course... 8^) )
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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John Summerfield
2003-08-21 02:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The build tools on 7.2 are too old. I have just built it successfully a
few minutes ago on Taroon.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
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cube1us
2003-08-21 23:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).

Jay Jaeger
Post by John Summerfield
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The build tools on 7.2 are too old. I have just built it
successfully a
Post by John Summerfield
few minutes ago on Taroon.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Copyright John Summerfield. Reproduction prohibited.
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Jay Maynard
2003-08-22 00:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a program in
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check your
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.

It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.

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cube1us
2003-08-22 01:40:28 UTC
Permalink
I don't usually like to do this, but....

<whine>

I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug causing
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows

"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"

(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)

And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)

Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works right? I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.

Over the years in playing on and off with Hercules I have found:

1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff

I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet mantra"
more to heart:

A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems

It leads to much more robustness.

</whine>

Sigh.

Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a program in
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check your
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.
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cube1us
2003-08-22 02:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Trying to get what I needed for 7.2 quickly became an exercise in
futility:

Besids gettext, it wants new autoconf, automake, libtool (and
therefore libtool-libs). It claimed to want libtool 1.5, which, for
some reason, isn't even available on the gnu site. And that doesn't
even touch what dependencies *those* tools might have. I haven't the
time for that.

I'll come back in month or so after Volker or someone has a build
running that fixes the bugs I need fixed that runs under win32, or I
find some other way to get an executable I can actually run, or you
folks have a relase I can run under RH 7.2.

(Under win32, it is looking for icon, libintl, and gets all confused
when checking for gettext in cvslvlck:

OK gettext requires 0.11, found 0.11.2

Error: No file sets specified
Use of uninitialized value in scalar chomp at ./cvslvlck line 41.
Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at ./cvslvlck line
173.
Use of uninitialized value in pattern match (m//) at ./cvslvlck line
177.
HUH?

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
I don't usually like to do this, but....
<whine>
I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug causing
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)
Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works right?
I
Post by cube1us
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet mantra"
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
</whine>
Sigh.
Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the
DOS/VS
Post by cube1us
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a
program in
Post by Jay Maynard
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check
your
Post by Jay Maynard
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.
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George
2003-08-22 02:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

Sorry for jumping into this at this late in your game, but why are you
so hung up on using a 2311? IIRC DOS/360 was equally happy running on
2314's. Have you tried one of those?

George Shedlock
Post by cube1us
I don't usually like to do this, but....
<whine>
I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug causing
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)
Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works right? I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet mantra"
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
</whine>
Sigh.
Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a
program in
Post by Jay Maynard
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check
your
Post by Jay Maynard
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.
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http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:08:01 UTC
Permalink
Because the distribution I have was for 2311. It won't distribute to
a 2314. (There were different distribution tapes for the different
kinds of media, packaged differently).

Anyway, I'd have the same problems with 2314's -- had tested that
when I was working with the OS/360 distribution.

Jay Jaeger
Post by George
Jay,
Sorry for jumping into this at this late in your game, but why are you
so hung up on using a 2311? IIRC DOS/360 was equally happy running on
2314's. Have you tried one of those?
George Shedlock
Post by cube1us
I don't usually like to do this, but....
<whine>
I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug
causing
Post by George
Post by cube1us
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)
Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works
right? I
Post by George
Post by cube1us
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet
mantra"
Post by George
Post by cube1us
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
</whine>
Sigh.
Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a
program in
Post by Jay Maynard
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check
your
Post by Jay Maynard
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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Service.


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Volker Bandke
2003-08-22 05:38:34 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jay,

you downloaded from the CVS repository. true? Then you might want to
take a look at http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/hercules/herc_w32_2.html which
describes how to build the binaries. Additionally you might want to
read the file README.CVS in the hercules source directory

Keep in mind that the file configure in the CVS tree might no be
trustworthy, and that you might want to remove it and run the autogen
script to recreate it.

BTW, I just downloaded from CVS, rebuilt configure, no problem
building the whole thing
Post by cube1us
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
Over the years I have found:

All the releases of Hercules ran all the OSes as advertised
All the releases had bugs, but on each release bugs had been squashed
and the remaining bugs were rather obscure
Prerequisites for building this stuff on windows changes with every
release, not daily. Part of this is Cygwin, the moving target
The dependencies on the "latest" stuff are there because functions
from the "latest stuff" are used and needed


I have yet to find a Hercules CVS tree from which I could not build
Hercules straight away. If problems occurred they were generally
resolved within 24 hours. Remember: When you live a the bleeding
edge you might get cut every so often



Now, stop whining :)


--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

"You tweachewous miscweant!" - Elmer Fudd

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

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Fish
2003-08-22 07:13:17 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by cube1us
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
To explain (not an *excuse*, just an *explaination*), Hercules
support for the Windows "EXTERNALGUI" has been a part of Herc now for
several releases, and is the default for Windows builds of Herc (i.e.
under Cygwin). That is to say, when building Herc on Windows (under
Cygwin), you're supposed to get a version of Herc that contains
EXTERNALGUI support such that Herc can be run either WITH or WITHOUT
HercGUI.

Due to the recent rearchitecting (restructuring?) of the new cvs
version currently under development, the ability to build a "dynamic
load"[1] version of Herc is now required [in order to build an
"EXTERNALGUI compatible" of Herc] since all the external GUI support
logic was moved into a separate dynamically loadable DLL.

Thus, with the way Herc is today (i.e. the current cvs version), your
Cygwin build environment must currently be configured such that you
can build "dynamic modules" (i.e. DLLs) so that the external gui
support logic can get built. That is to say, while you don't
necessarily have to USE the dyngui.dll (which is the module that
provides the external GUI support in Herc), you DO have to be able to
at lease BUILD it.

It could be argued that perhaps this is an unnecessary requirement
for people trying to build Herc on Windows (and I won't argue the
point), but nonetheless that IS the way it's designed today (i.e.
right now). Sorry.

To try and appease those who may feel this in indeed an unnecessary
requirement to those trying to build Herc on Windows/Cygwin, I
promise to try and adjust the build logic for the new release of Herc
such that if one does not have the proper Cygwin support for building
dynamic modules that a "non-EXTERNALGUI-compatible" version of Herc
ends up being built. I can't promise that I'll actually be able to do
this (although taking a quick peek at the current build process it
honestly doesn't look too tough to do[2]) but I can promise you that
I'll look into the matter.

That's the best I can do right now, Jay. Sorry. :(

<snip>
Post by cube1us
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
No argument.

But such words are, sadly, oftentimes easier said than done (as may
be the case in this particular instance).

All I can say is (and I certainly don't mean to be rude or anything
with this statement so please don't take it the wrong way and instead
simply take it in the manner intended[3]): if you're not happy or
satisfied with what we're doing [with Herc] or the way we're doing
it, then please feel free to do it yourself. Herc is an open source
project so there's nothing stopping you or anyone else from changing
it however they want.

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/

[1] I.e. the ability to do run-time loading of DLLs that contain
various chunks of logic that Herc may need -- a new feature of the
new version that we hope will make Herc not only easier to maintain
but also easier for others to contribute[4].

[2] But looks can oftentimes be deceiving.

[3] Which is simply the "if you don't like it, change it!" spirit and
nothing more. No anger. No snottiness. Just "feel free to do a better
job if you think you can. Otherwise please bear with us. We're only
human after all."

[4] Especially in the areas of providing for currently unsupported
(or partially supported) device support, as well as allowing us to
deal with some rather unpleasant legal issues regarding crypto
support too. A definite "step in the right direction" in our
opinions.


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ivan_warhead
2003-08-22 08:56:23 UTC
Permalink
<snip />
Post by cube1us
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet
mantra"
Post by cube1us
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
I know Fish said 'no argument'.. But I would tend to really disagree
with that statement, and particularily when it comes to this
project.. (especially the 'B' point)..

Hercules is an emulator that is trying it's best to provide the same
level of service provided by IBM Mainframes. Those Mainframes were
never forgiving and *THAT* is what makes them robust, but, as a
result, sometimes harder to manage.

As an example, if we take the 2311 Cmd Rej issue. Had the driver
been forgiving it would have took the Write Record 0 without any
checks, allowing it whatever the previously issued CCW was. As a
consequence, a poorly written program could have written a record in
a place where it was not intended to be and as a result, severe
problems could pop-up way later with a real hard time diagnosing
what went wrong.

And then you would enter the 'Unexpected Error' loop which is the
plague of 'forgiving' systems which allow the user to do things that
the system was not intended for.

IBM Mainframe architectures (and the same goes for IBM Networking)
have this particular characteristic of being (in the spirit anyway)
entirelly defined. The specifications hold NO place for 'undefined'
or 'unspecified' behaviours (except for very specific areas - where
this undefined or unspecified behaviour is PART of the definition -
see DIAG instr). This architecture defines a reaction from the
system whatever the stimuli and DOES specify that anything that
doesn't fall within the specs MUST be rejected. (ex : if bits are
reserved in a field and must be set to 0, then the specs tells you
what to do if the specified reserved bits are NOT 0 - See PSW format
& PSW exceptions as an example - or CCW format, etc..)

So, in my opinion, should the hercules emulator be 'forgiving', it
wouldn't properly be emulating the architecture it is trying to
recreate.

<snip />

--Ivan


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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:13:13 UTC
Permalink
When I said "forgiving about what they accept from systems", I was
referring to what it has to have to build the executable from the
source, not what the Hercules emulator itself does.

I'm not complaining about the CMDREJ issue itself as much as the fact
that I cannot effectively get the fix onto my system because it is
such a pain (i.e., so fussy about what it needs for pre-requisite
tools) to build from the CVS source.

Jay Jaeger
Post by ivan_warhead
<snip />
Post by cube1us
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet
mantra"
Post by cube1us
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
I know Fish said 'no argument'.. But I would tend to really
disagree
Post by ivan_warhead
with that statement, and particularily when it comes to this
project.. (especially the 'B' point)..
Hercules is an emulator that is trying it's best to provide the same
level of service provided by IBM Mainframes. Those Mainframes were
never forgiving and *THAT* is what makes them robust, but, as a
result, sometimes harder to manage.
As an example, if we take the 2311 Cmd Rej issue. Had the driver
been forgiving it would have took the Write Record 0 without any
checks, allowing it whatever the previously issued CCW was. As a
consequence, a poorly written program could have written a record in
a place where it was not intended to be and as a result, severe
problems could pop-up way later with a real hard time diagnosing
what went wrong.
And then you would enter the 'Unexpected Error' loop which is the
plague of 'forgiving' systems which allow the user to do things that
the system was not intended for.
IBM Mainframe architectures (and the same goes for IBM Networking)
have this particular characteristic of being (in the spirit anyway)
entirelly defined. The specifications hold NO place for 'undefined'
or 'unspecified' behaviours (except for very specific areas - where
this undefined or unspecified behaviour is PART of the definition -
see DIAG instr). This architecture defines a reaction from the
system whatever the stimuli and DOES specify that anything that
doesn't fall within the specs MUST be rejected. (ex : if bits are
reserved in a field and must be set to 0, then the specs tells you
what to do if the specified reserved bits are NOT 0 - See PSW
format
Post by ivan_warhead
& PSW exceptions as an example - or CCW format, etc..)
So, in my opinion, should the hercules emulator be 'forgiving', it
wouldn't properly be emulating the architecture it is trying to
recreate.
<snip />
--Ivan
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Harold Grovesteen
2003-08-22 13:41:47 UTC
Permalink
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second Jay's "whines." With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is experiencing.

Just a voice of support.

Harold Grovesteen
----- Original Message -----
From: cube1us
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News


I don't usually like to do this, but....

<whine>

I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug causing
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows

"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"

(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)

And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)

Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works right? I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.

Over the years in playing on and off with Hercules I have found:

1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff

I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet mantra"
more to heart:

A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems

It leads to much more robustness.

</whine>

Sigh.

Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a program in
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check your
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on 7.2.
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ivan_warhead
2003-08-22 16:49:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for
all of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines." With the limited time I have to do anything I do
not want to get pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as
Jay is experiencing.
Post by Harold Grovesteen
Just a voice of support.
Harold Grovesteen
<rant>
I am afraid I do not understand.

As far as I know, the 'CVS' anonymous access is provided as a
facility so that problems that have been addressed by developers and
more generally the entire community who try to provide the best
possible support they can give with *THEIR* 'limited time'.

Of course, nothing is perfect. Bugs creep in at times. But if nobody
ever tries the fixes - not only does it seem useless to try to
enhance the program and provide an instant method of providing
fixes - but also - the release that will be handed out will be
fairly untested (Sorry.. but with 'our' limited time, their is no
way we can test each & every possibility the entire user community
comes up with (probably over 10 diff operating systems and 100s or
1000s of diff execution environments - ranging from people running
OS/360 on 2311 to people running z/Linux with ECKDs & LCS).

I think Volker said that already, but this is an Open Source project
in which everyone is welcome and encouraged to contribute.

Again, I do not understand the fear surrounding use of the CVS (of
course, it IS experimental - so the program may not operate within
specs).. And I SURELY do not understand people trying to propagate
this fear of using experimental versions or getting the latest
version from CVS (mind it.. experimental, yes.. but *MOST* of the
time fairly sane).

But if someone raises an issue, we usually do our best to address it
ASAP. We are also trying as hard as we can to release a stable
working version so that everyone can have fun (yes ! it's only
a 'fun' thing) with the latest features.

I can't blame you for not wanting to use the latest CVS version.
That can make perfect sense depending on what you are expecting from
hercules. But if you raise an issue (or if it is raised by someone
else) - and we fix it (or we try to) - and then say : Not going to
use CVS, but it's still broken - then that definitelly not going to
be a voice of support for US (and for all those who put countless
hours in trying to make hercules a better S/360/370/390/XA/ESA/z
emulator)...

</rant>

Sorry for the rant folks..

--Ivan


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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:15:32 UTC
Permalink
The problem for me isn't the state of the code -- bugs in Hercules
itself are not the issue.. The problem is that the pre-requisites
for actually building the executable from the source are so numerous
and so stringent that I could not, without *hours* of work, pull
together a system that I could build it on.

To put into mainframe terms, it reminds one of a chain of 200 APARS.

Jay Jaeger
Post by Harold Grovesteen
Post by Harold Grovesteen
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for
all of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines." With the limited time I have to do anything I do
not want to get pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as
Jay is experiencing.
Post by Harold Grovesteen
Just a voice of support.
Harold Grovesteen
<rant>
I am afraid I do not understand.
As far as I know, the 'CVS' anonymous access is provided as a
facility so that problems that have been addressed by developers and
more generally the entire community who try to provide the best
possible support they can give with *THEIR* 'limited time'.
Of course, nothing is perfect. Bugs creep in at times. But if
nobody
Post by Harold Grovesteen
ever tries the fixes - not only does it seem useless to try to
enhance the program and provide an instant method of providing
fixes - but also - the release that will be handed out will be
fairly untested (Sorry.. but with 'our' limited time, their is no
way we can test each & every possibility the entire user community
comes up with (probably over 10 diff operating systems and 100s or
1000s of diff execution environments - ranging from people running
OS/360 on 2311 to people running z/Linux with ECKDs & LCS).
I think Volker said that already, but this is an Open Source
project
Post by Harold Grovesteen
in which everyone is welcome and encouraged to contribute.
Again, I do not understand the fear surrounding use of the CVS (of
course, it IS experimental - so the program may not operate within
specs).. And I SURELY do not understand people trying to propagate
this fear of using experimental versions or getting the latest
version from CVS (mind it.. experimental, yes.. but *MOST* of the
time fairly sane).
But if someone raises an issue, we usually do our best to address it
ASAP. We are also trying as hard as we can to release a stable
working version so that everyone can have fun (yes ! it's only
a 'fun' thing) with the latest features.
I can't blame you for not wanting to use the latest CVS version.
That can make perfect sense depending on what you are expecting from
hercules. But if you raise an issue (or if it is raised by someone
else) - and we fix it (or we try to) - and then say : Not going to
use CVS, but it's still broken - then that definitelly not going to
be a voice of support for US (and for all those who put countless
hours in trying to make hercules a better S/360/370/390/XA/ESA/z
emulator)...
</rant>
Sorry for the rant folks..
--Ivan
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ivan_warhead
2003-08-22 17:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
The problem for me isn't the state of the code -- bugs in Hercules
itself are not the issue.. The problem is that the pre-requisites
for actually building the executable from the source are so
numerous
Post by cube1us
and so stringent that I could not, without *hours* of work, pull
together a system that I could build it on.
To put into mainframe terms, it reminds one of a chain of 200
APARS.

I hear ya...

This tells me we may need to make more snapshots (even if they are
source snapshots).. lemme explain..

the CVS does not contain a SOURCE snapshot per-se.. or rather it
does, but not something that can be built on a vanilla box (be it
win or linux).. That's because the build is a 2 or 3 step build..
And what is causing problem is usually step 1 (the
autoconf/automake/libtoolize/gettextize/etc/..) Whereas in a source
snapshot, these steps have already been taken, requiring then no
more than the compiler and a few properly picked header files
(or 'dev' packages of libraries such as libgz-devel) the rest being
self-contained (ex: ./configure does not require any of the
automagic tools).

We have had a lot of discussions about a viable (or at least easier)
solution regarding the build process for people pulling the source
code out of the CVS development tree. Basically, the major roadblock
on this is that we feel it's improper to stuff in the CVS anything
that's automagically generated (the presence of 'configure' is
accidental) - But it's leading to all sorts of headaches for people
that are willing to build from CVS - we are yet to come up with a
elegant solution..

I guarantee, once the 1st step is done, no exotic package is needed
(or should be needed) - especially no exotic development tool should
be.

Sorry for misunderstanding your <whine> (You whine, I rant.. go
figure)..

--Ivan


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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:38:19 UTC
Permalink
"And what is causing problem is usually step 1 (the
autoconf/automake/libtoolize/gettextize/etc/..) "

Precisely correct in my particular case. Those (and then what they
in turn depend upon) are the ones that are my current roadblock. I
think (can't remember for absolutely certain) it was libtool 1.5 that
wasn't available on the GNU site last nite.

Its cool. We need to remind ourselves this is supposed to be fun. 8^)

Oh well, time to end my lunch-hour catching up. Back to the real
world.....

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
The problem for me isn't the state of the code -- bugs in
Hercules
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
itself are not the issue.. The problem is that the pre-
requisites
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
for actually building the executable from the source are so
numerous
Post by cube1us
and so stringent that I could not, without *hours* of work, pull
together a system that I could build it on.
To put into mainframe terms, it reminds one of a chain of 200
APARS.
I hear ya...
This tells me we may need to make more snapshots (even if they are
source snapshots).. lemme explain..
the CVS does not contain a SOURCE snapshot per-se.. or rather it
does, but not something that can be built on a vanilla box (be it
win or linux).. That's because the build is a 2 or 3 step build..
And what is causing problem is usually step 1 (the
autoconf/automake/libtoolize/gettextize/etc/..) Whereas in a source
snapshot, these steps have already been taken, requiring then no
more than the compiler and a few properly picked header files
(or 'dev' packages of libraries such as libgz-devel) the rest being
self-contained (ex: ./configure does not require any of the
automagic tools).
We have had a lot of discussions about a viable (or at least
easier)
Post by cube1us
solution regarding the build process for people pulling the source
code out of the CVS development tree. Basically, the major
roadblock
Post by cube1us
on this is that we feel it's improper to stuff in the CVS anything
that's automagically generated (the presence of 'configure' is
accidental) - But it's leading to all sorts of headaches for people
that are willing to build from CVS - we are yet to come up with a
elegant solution..
I guarantee, once the 1st step is done, no exotic package is needed
(or should be needed) - especially no exotic development tool
should
Post by cube1us
be.
Sorry for misunderstanding your <whine> (You whine, I rant.. go
figure)..
--Ivan
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John Summerfield
2003-08-24 10:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
The problem for me isn't the state of the code -- bugs in Hercules
itself are not the issue.. The problem is that the pre-requisites
for actually building the executable from the source are so
numerous
Post by cube1us
and so stringent that I could not, without *hours* of work, pull
together a system that I could build it on.
To put into mainframe terms, it reminds one of a chain of 200
APARS.
I hear ya...
This tells me we may need to make more snapshots (even if they are
source snapshots).. lemme explain..
the CVS does not contain a SOURCE snapshot per-se.. or rather it
does, but not something that can be built on a vanilla box (be it
win or linux).. That's because the build is a 2 or 3 step build..
And what is causing problem is usually step 1 (the
autoconf/automake/libtoolize/gettextize/etc/..) Whereas in a source
snapshot, these steps have already been taken, requiring then no
more than the compiler and a few properly picked header files
(or 'dev' packages of libraries such as libgz-devel) the rest being
self-contained (ex: ./configure does not require any of the
automagic tools).
We have had a lot of discussions about a viable (or at least easier)
solution regarding the build process for people pulling the source
code out of the CVS development tree. Basically, the major roadblock
on this is that we feel it's improper to stuff in the CVS anything
that's automagically generated (the presence of 'configure' is
accidental) - But it's leading to all sorts of headaches for people
that are willing to build from CVS - we are yet to come up with a
elegant solution..
Leading up to Postgresql 7.2, I was pulling CVS source code daily and
buildin that, no problems. On Red Hat Linux 7.2 I think.

That is what I should be able to do with Hercules. I am perfectly happy
to install the versions of autoconf, automake etc that belong to my
distribution, and it's reasonable to expect other Linux users to do the
same.

What I think unreasonable is to expect Linux users to download
third-party tarballs and bypass their package management, or to install
packages created for other releases or even other distributions because
by doing to they complicate the management of their systems, maybe
jeopardise other work, and importantly, waste time better spent on
Hercules itself.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Copyright John Summerfield. Reproduction prohibited.


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Jay Maynard
2003-08-25 00:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Summerfield
What I think unreasonable is to expect Linux users to download
third-party tarballs and bypass their package management, or to install
packages created for other releases or even other distributions because
by doing to they complicate the management of their systems, maybe
jeopardise other work, and importantly, waste time better spent on
Hercules itself.
HUH??!

My Red Hat 7.2 Hercuiles build system has only tools installed either from
Red Hat themselves, or directly from the GNU project - the authoritative
source for those tools. I do not ever bypass RPM's package management
system. Never. Not once. I consider a requirement to do so fundamentally
broken. OTOH, if an RPM will go on RH 7.2 with no --force options specified,
then I consider it built for that system.

If you can identify a requirement to install a tool from some other source
than either the GNU Project or Red Hat, then please tell us exactly which
one, and where, so we can squash it.

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John Summerfield
2003-08-25 00:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by John Summerfield
What I think unreasonable is to expect Linux users to download
third-party tarballs and bypass their package management, or to install
packages created for other releases or even other distributions because
by doing to they complicate the management of their systems, maybe
jeopardise other work, and importantly, waste time better spent on
Hercules itself.
HUH??!
My Red Hat 7.2 Hercuiles build system has only tools installed either from
Red Hat themselves, or directly from the GNU project - the authoritative
source for those tools. I do not ever bypass RPM's package management
system. Never. Not once. I consider a requirement to do so fundamentally
broken. OTOH, if an RPM will go on RH 7.2 with no --force options specified,
then I consider it built for that system.
If you can identify a requirement to install a tool from some other source
than either the GNU Project or Red Hat, then please tell us exactly which
one, and where, so we can squash it.
Installing packages directly from the GNU project is itself broken
behaviour because it means that others cannot participate with a
standard RHL system.

Unless you create RPM packages from those sources directly from the GNU
project, you are bypassing Red Hat's package management system.

Installing products directly from the GNU project into system locations
mean that rpms (or debs or other packages) may be built with versions of
packages other than those the package manager thinks you are using. Both
buildreqs and installreqs may be broken in such a package.

On any given release of any given distribution, I may choose to build
and install non-standard packages for my own use, but I regard expecting
others to do so (except for some particular circumstances) as folly.

I won't do it, any more than I will install browser plugins at the
behest of www.brokensite.com.

Expecting people to install packages directly from the GNU project for
the Hercules project is not very different from those vendors of Windows
software who, or so I've read, ship their own pocket versions of Windows
DLLs "because you need this version for our fine product." No matter
that it breaks other stuff.

Diamond Multimedia engaged in similar broken behaviour on OS/2: "You
need this patch and we will apply it for you," except they did it
without warning, and applied it to Warp 3 when it was written for OS/2
2.1.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Copyright John Summerfield. Reproduction prohibited.


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John Summerfield
2003-08-24 10:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen
Post by Harold Grovesteen
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for
all of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines." With the limited time I have to do anything I do
not want to get pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as
Jay is experiencing.
Post by Harold Grovesteen
Just a voice of support.
Harold Grovesteen
<rant>
I am afraid I do not understand.
As far as I know, the 'CVS' anonymous access is provided as a
facility so that problems that have been addressed by developers and
more generally the entire community who try to provide the best
possible support they can give with *THEIR* 'limited time'.
As I said a couple of years or so again, the choice the developers have
made to use bleeding-edge tools instead of those commonly provided in
real-life Linux distributions means it's unnecessarily difficylt for
people who are nto willing to risk buggering up their symtems.

I have built several projects fromt their CVS source, and I can't think
of any others that require the latest of anything from unrelated
projects.

Surely, if others can do it so can the Hercules development team. As
the Postgresql developers joke, it's not rocket science.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
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Volker Bandke
2003-08-22 17:13:15 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Oh, I understand. Your limited time is too precious to try to build
from the CVS trees. Fine with me. Why would you want to build from
the CVS in the first place? Because you had a problem with the
release version. Otherwise there would not be a reason to build from
CVS. Okay. your call. Now- why should anybody else use his/her
free time to do the work for you? Is my time less precious than
yours? Do the developers have a duty to provide any fix for you in
an easy digestible way as soon as the fix has been placed into the
CVS?


Sorry, of course the developers should. After all, you pay a 16%
yearly maintenance fee for this product. Ooops, wrong universe.


This is open source. Free. Free as in free beer. Free as in freely
available. Free to use. Or not to use. Sorry if I sound aggravated,
but that's the way it is. I am pissed (US meaning). There are
people on the team that literally spend their last minute for
providing a really good tool/toy, and then someone comes whining
along and doesn't even want to spent the time to read the
documentation on how to build the whole thing. Sorry, this is just
too much


Sometimes I wonder if we should charge for the service of prebuilding
binaries. Going to check if I can open a PayPal account.




--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

This is National Non-Dairy Creamer Week.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


- -----Original Message-----
From: Harold Grovesteen [mailto:h.grovsteen-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:42 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News


I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second Jay's "whines."
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing.

Just a voice of support.

Harold Grovesteen
----- Original Message -----
From: cube1us
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News


I don't usually like to do this, but....

<whine>

I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug causing
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows

"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"

(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)

And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2 (where
I'd rather not run it anyway)

Question: How long before there is a version I can download which
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works right?
I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we release
them.

Over the years in playing on and off with Hercules I have found:

1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff

I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet mantra"
more to heart:

A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems

It leads to much more robustness.

</whine>

Sigh.

Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the
DOS/VS
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's a program in
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will check your
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on
7.2.


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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:35:03 UTC
Permalink
I would be perfectly happy to try and build it -- if ONLY I COULD.

I spent over three hours last nite just trying to find the pieces so
I could build it under RedHat 7.2, and failed when the list of pre-
requisites got 3 layers deep, and when one of them wasn't even
available on the GNU site (yanked because they are verifying code
signatures).

On the Win32 side, the script to tell me what tools I needed bombed,
so I could not even find out what I needed (see error message in the
quotes of this message).

Volker, it wasn't for lack of trying. And my beef isn't with the
state of the Hercules emulator code per se. I'd be happy to build a
new version from CVS every nite to work on stuff IF ONLY I COULD.
Last period I was active with this stuff (about a year ago) I could
build it. The dozens of tool pre-requisites it takes to actually
build it puts the CVS code out of the reach of anyone who doesn't
have their systems at the "latest and greatest". I cannot build it
from the source without spending, probably, another 8 hours putting
together what I need to do it.

One reason the developers might want to help? I have uncovered two
sets of ORIGINAL IBM distributions, one for OS/360 (testing on that
one is done, and release is being set up), the other for DOS/360
(where issues with a Commend Reject started all of this) that I am
testing and building some (at least minimal) instructions for before
releasing them to this group. Some of the stuff on OS/360 will plug
some gaps (DN554 library) from that heretofore available. The
DOS/360 (R26) is probably the oldest software release that Hercules
has seen to date.

I haven't been counting, but I think I have well over 40 hours into
this latest effort.

In addition to these most recent efforts, there are quite a few
things that I have contributed over the years, including documenting
and testing ALGOL, providing SNOBOL, coordinating and testing the
release of SPITBOL, initial testing of DOS/VS, etc.

At one point, I also myself contributed some code to do "appends" on
the printing device instead of overwriting each time. Last time I
checked, that code, unfortunately, got lost.

Like you folks working on the code, I give of my time freely. So,
frankly, I don't think I deserved this particular drubbing.

<expletive> I DID READ THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR BUILDING FROM CVS. Last
time I did that, it worked fine (maybe 18 months ago). This time,
there are so blinking many tool pre-requisites that it is going to
take hours of work to get past them (one piece wasn't even avaliable
last nite). There are also conflicting reports about how likely it
is to be able to build under RH 7.2.

Given that, I simply decided to wait. So shoot me.

Does open source mean that the contributors will not listen to
suggestions for improvement?

Jay Jaeger
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Oh, I understand. Your limited time is too precious to try to build
from the CVS trees. Fine with me. Why would you want to build from
the CVS in the first place? Because you had a problem with the
release version. Otherwise there would not be a reason to build from
CVS. Okay. your call. Now- why should anybody else use his/her
free time to do the work for you? Is my time less precious than
yours? Do the developers have a duty to provide any fix for you in
an easy digestible way as soon as the fix has been placed into the
CVS?
Sorry, of course the developers should. After all, you pay a 16%
yearly maintenance fee for this product. Ooops, wrong universe.
This is open source. Free. Free as in free beer. Free as in
freely
Post by Volker Bandke
available. Free to use. Or not to use. Sorry if I sound
aggravated,
Post by Volker Bandke
but that's the way it is. I am pissed (US meaning). There are
people on the team that literally spend their last minute for
providing a really good tool/toy, and then someone comes whining
along and doesn't even want to spent the time to read the
documentation on how to build the whole thing. Sorry, this is just
too much
Sometimes I wonder if we should charge for the service of
prebuilding
Post by Volker Bandke
binaries. Going to check if I can open a PayPal account.
--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
This is National Non-Dairy Creamer Week.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines."
Post by Volker Bandke
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing.
Just a voice of support.
Harold Grovesteen
----- Original Message -----
From: cube1us
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News
I don't usually like to do this, but....
<whine>
I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug
causing
Post by Volker Bandke
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2
(where
Post by Volker Bandke
I'd rather not run it anyway)
Question: How long before there is a version I can download
which
Post by Volker Bandke
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works
right?
Post by Volker Bandke
I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we
release
Post by Volker Bandke
them.
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet
mantra"
Post by Volker Bandke
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
</whine>
Sigh.
Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements?
Documented
Post by Volker Bandke
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the
DOS/VS
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's
a
Post by Volker Bandke
program in
Post by Jay Maynard
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will
check
Post by Volker Bandke
your
Post by Jay Maynard
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on
7.2.
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Volker Bandke
2003-08-22 18:51:23 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jay,

my rant was not in reply to your message, but in reply to someone
else who wrote:

<quote>
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second Jay's "whines."
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing. </quote>
This type of whining is what blew my hat. Simple, plain, whining.
And I am not going to take one word back of my message in response to
that post. Please note that I responded to your post as well,
differently




As of building on Win32, I do not understand your problem at all, as
you can download all the required tools from the Cygwin site in one
go, using their setup program. If you don't want to spend time for
research, just download and install all of Cygwin. This will cost
you some time (depending on network speed) and disk space (With
sources, libs, whatever more than 800 MB on my system). Then
download hercules using cvs. then 4 commands

bash autogen.sh
./configure
make
make strip-install



voila. Works for me. Every time. And doesn't take long at all
(unless I do it on my ThinkPad T380, which has 80 MB RAM and 150 MHz
Pentium . There building the whole thing takes hours


Where does this process fail on your machine?
Post by cube1us
On the Win32 side, the script to tell me what tools I needed bombed,
so I could not even find out what I needed (see error message in the
quotes of this message).



Did you install the Cygwin perl on your system? I did, and the
cvslvlck works like a charm. I need to say, though, that I am using
Win2000. There are known perl problems with Win98, and you would
have to use perl 5.6 instead of perl 5.8
Post by cube1us
I spent over three hours last nite just trying to find the pieces so
I could build it under RedHat 7.2
Cannot talk about redhat7.2 as I don't have it. I do have SuSE 7.2,
and the setup there was straight forward - the tools were either part
of the distro, or I downloaded them with the help of google. FYI:

cvs 1.11
autoconf 2.52
automake 1.5
flex 2.5.4
gawk 3.0.6
gcc 2.95.3
gettext 0.11.2
libiconv 2.2.2
make 3.79.1
perl 5.6.0
sed 3.02
libtoolize 1.5
libtool 1.5


none of those were obtained from "weird" sources. As far as I can
say I had to install 5 packages in the course of time

gettext-0.11.2
automake-1.5
autogen-5.2.3
autoconf-2.52
libtool-1.5

I have them as tar.gz files and built the binaries the usual way -
configure - make - make install
Should work on RedHat as well. I can send them if you want
Post by cube1us
In addition to these most recent efforts, there are quite a few
things that I have contributed over the years, including <rest
snipped>

Fine. That's why you didn't get "ranted" (tm) by me. I don't mind
whining, bitching, whatever, in the correct context :)
Post by cube1us
Like you folks working on the code, I give of my time freely. So,
frankly, I don't think I deserved this particular drubbing.
And you didn't get any drubbing. Not from me
Post by cube1us
Does open source mean that the contributors will not listen to
suggestions for improvement?


Sure we do. We love to here them. But, where is a suggestion in

<quote>
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second Jay's "whines."
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing. </quote>


Anyhow, when I get a Linux machine to do what I want, this is either
a major miracle or the thing I wanted to be done is straight-forward.
Linux builds hercules for me, and I don't believe in miracles...:)

--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

You want programming jokes? OK: BASIC, Pascal, COBOL, Windows.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)



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cube1us
2003-08-23 00:53:59 UTC
Permalink
I see. Its cool. It has been a long week (not all users patch their
systems reliably, you see....)

I do know how to download and set up cygwin. I use cygwin for a
*lot* of things on my machine, not just Hercules. If it breaks, it
could seriously hamper me. In the past, for Hercules, I have
typically downloaded the requisite level of cygwin DLL's and stuck
them in the Hercules directory so that Hercules is happy, with
minimum disruption of my other stuff -- I can apply a certain kind
of "change management" that way. [Of course, with "DLL Hell" I can
run into situations where, because Hercules is running, its DLL is
loaded, not the one in my Windows path, but *that* I can live with].

I think we have "cleared the air" sufficiently on this topic. 8^)

Jay Jaeger
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jay,
my rant was not in reply to your message, but in reply to someone
<quote>
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines."
Post by Volker Bandke
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing. </quote>
This type of whining is what blew my hat. Simple, plain, whining.
And I am not going to take one word back of my message in response to
that post. Please note that I responded to your post as well,
differently
As of building on Win32, I do not understand your problem at all, as
you can download all the required tools from the Cygwin site in one
go, using their setup program. If you don't want to spend time for
research, just download and install all of Cygwin. This will cost
you some time (depending on network speed) and disk space (With
sources, libs, whatever more than 800 MB on my system). Then
download hercules using cvs. then 4 commands
bash autogen.sh
./configure
make
make strip-install
voila. Works for me. Every time. And doesn't take long at all
(unless I do it on my ThinkPad T380, which has 80 MB RAM and 150 MHz
Pentium . There building the whole thing takes hours
Where does this process fail on your machine?
Post by cube1us
On the Win32 side, the script to tell me what tools I needed
bombed,
Post by Volker Bandke
Post by cube1us
so I could not even find out what I needed (see error message in the
quotes of this message).
Did you install the Cygwin perl on your system? I did, and the
cvslvlck works like a charm. I need to say, though, that I am using
Win2000. There are known perl problems with Win98, and you would
have to use perl 5.6 instead of perl 5.8
Post by cube1us
I spent over three hours last nite just trying to find the pieces so
I could build it under RedHat 7.2
Cannot talk about redhat7.2 as I don't have it. I do have SuSE 7.2,
and the setup there was straight forward - the tools were either part
cvs 1.11
autoconf 2.52
automake 1.5
flex 2.5.4
gawk 3.0.6
gcc 2.95.3
gettext 0.11.2
libiconv 2.2.2
make 3.79.1
perl 5.6.0
sed 3.02
libtoolize 1.5
libtool 1.5
none of those were obtained from "weird" sources. As far as I can
say I had to install 5 packages in the course of time
gettext-0.11.2
automake-1.5
autogen-5.2.3
autoconf-2.52
libtool-1.5
I have them as tar.gz files and built the binaries the usual way -
configure - make - make install
Should work on RedHat as well. I can send them if you want
Post by cube1us
In addition to these most recent efforts, there are quite a few
things that I have contributed over the years, including <rest
snipped>
Fine. That's why you didn't get "ranted" (tm) by me. I don't mind
whining, bitching, whatever, in the correct context :)
Post by cube1us
Like you folks working on the code, I give of my time freely. So,
frankly, I don't think I deserved this particular drubbing.
And you didn't get any drubbing. Not from me
Post by cube1us
Does open source mean that the contributors will not listen to
suggestions for improvement?
Sure we do. We love to here them. But, where is a suggestion in
<quote>
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines."
Post by Volker Bandke
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing. </quote>
Anyhow, when I get a Linux machine to do what I want, this is either
a major miracle or the thing I wanted to be done is straight-
forward.
Post by Volker Bandke
Linux builds hercules for me, and I don't believe in miracles...:)
--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
You want programming jokes? OK: BASIC, Pascal, COBOL, Windows.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Separate from my other reply, I'd like to add this. I REALLY DO
APPRECIATE THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE ON THE WIN32 releases!!!!!

Jay Jaeger
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Oh, I understand. Your limited time is too precious to try to build
from the CVS trees. Fine with me. Why would you want to build from
the CVS in the first place? Because you had a problem with the
release version. Otherwise there would not be a reason to build from
CVS. Okay. your call. Now- why should anybody else use his/her
free time to do the work for you? Is my time less precious than
yours? Do the developers have a duty to provide any fix for you in
an easy digestible way as soon as the fix has been placed into the
CVS?
Sorry, of course the developers should. After all, you pay a 16%
yearly maintenance fee for this product. Ooops, wrong universe.
This is open source. Free. Free as in free beer. Free as in
freely
Post by Volker Bandke
available. Free to use. Or not to use. Sorry if I sound
aggravated,
Post by Volker Bandke
but that's the way it is. I am pissed (US meaning). There are
people on the team that literally spend their last minute for
providing a really good tool/toy, and then someone comes whining
along and doesn't even want to spent the time to read the
documentation on how to build the whole thing. Sorry, this is just
too much
Sometimes I wonder if we should charge for the service of
prebuilding
Post by Volker Bandke
binaries. Going to check if I can open a PayPal account.
--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
This is National Non-Dairy Creamer Week.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
- -----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News
I have certainly been scared away from touching the CVS stuff for all
of the issues I have seen surrounding them. I second
Jay's "whines."
Post by Volker Bandke
With the limited time I have to do anything I do not want to get
pulled into a labyrinth of nested problems such as Jay is
experiencing.
Just a voice of support.
Harold Grovesteen
----- Original Message -----
From: cube1us
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 8:40 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News
I don't usually like to do this, but....
<whine>
I can't use an old release of dasdinit, because no F4 DSCB
I can't use older (even 2.17.1 hercules, because of the bug
causing
Post by Volker Bandke
CMD REJECT
I can't build current cvs on Windows
"configure: error: dynamic loader option required for external gui
support on win32"
(and I didn't even *ask* for the GUI)
And I am getting mixed messages on building under Linux 7.2
(where
Post by Volker Bandke
I'd rather not run it anyway)
Question: How long before there is a version I can download
which
Post by Volker Bandke
won't have the CMD REJECT bug or has a dasdinit which works
right?
Post by Volker Bandke
I
don't have time to keep trying this and that in a "few minutes here
and there" effort to check out the DOS/360 tapes before we
release
Post by Volker Bandke
them.
1) Versions that actually run old OS's well are sporadic
2) The pre-requisites for building this stuff change almost daily
3) There are continual dependencies on the "latest" stuff
I think the Hercules developers needs to take the "Internet
mantra"
Post by Volker Bandke
A. Be conservative in what you *expect* from systems
B. Be forgiving in what you *accept* from systems
It leads to much more robustness.
</whine>
Sigh.
Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements?
Documented
Post by Volker Bandke
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the
DOS/VS
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
standalone).
The biggest requirement is a 0.11.x version of gettext. There's
a
Post by Volker Bandke
program in
Post by Jay Maynard
the util directory of the distribution, cvslvlck, that will
check
Post by Volker Bandke
your
Post by Jay Maynard
system and report on versions that you need to upgrade.
It's not unachievable; the 2.18 distribution will be built on
7.2.
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John Summerfield
2003-08-24 10:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Oh, I understand. Your limited time is too precious to try to build
from the CVS trees. Fine with me. Why would you want to build from
the CVS in the first place? Because you had a problem with the
I can't speak for others, but I personally have no fear of building from
CVS.

I gave Hercules away about two years ago because I could not build from
CVS using the tools that are part of Red Hat Linux, and I did not wish
to pollute my system with (possibly broken, certainly untested with my
software set) tools from another source.

I cannot build it now on Debian/Woody for similar reasons: it does not
build with standard tools.

I build it on Taroon *ONLY* after making a source change to correct a
problem we've already discussed on this list.

Developers, instead of defending actions you've taken, see what you can
do to welcome wannabe developers by making it easy to join in.

I'd much rather be installing MVS or Linux or even VM and maybe DOS
under CVS hercules than stuffing round endlessly trying to build it.

Make sure it can be built from CVS with tools Linux users are probably
using already.

For Cygwin users, stick to one version of Cygwin if you possibly can,
otherwise provide a tool to facilitate getting known-working libraries.

Time people waste trying to get their tools to work is time they are not
contributing to Hercules, and that's bad for Hercules.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
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cube1us
2003-08-22 01:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Well, so much for that idea. // UID IQ works OK for 3350's, but not
2311's. So I guess I will have to bite the bullet and try to make
the CVS code work. Sigh.

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Which leads me to ask: What are the requirements? Documented
somewhere? (In the meantime, I'll init the pack under the DOS/VS
standalone).
Jay Jaeger
Post by John Summerfield
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000
PRO)?
Post by John Summerfield
Post by cube1us
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I
also
Post by John Summerfield
Post by cube1us
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The build tools on 7.2 are too old. I have just built it
successfully a
Post by John Summerfield
few minutes ago on Taroon.
--
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gshedlk
2003-08-22 02:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

Try this UID card instead:

// UID IA,C1

The IR you were using says that previously flagged defective tracks
will retain thier defective flags. IA will ignore any defective
flags and do a complete surface analysis. The IQ you tried earlier,
only applies to 3330, 3333 and 3340 drives.

The R=(....) parameter says "Indicates the physical location of a
track that must be unconditionally flagged defective.". Since you
presumably don't have any defective tracks, you can leave this
parameter off.

The next thing that will bite you is your // VTOC statement. The
format of the statement is:
// VTOC STRTADR=(cccchhh),EXTENT=(nn)
For a 2311 the cylinder (cccc) may have a value of 0000-0199 and
the extent (nn) may have a value of up to 10 (since the 2311 has
only 10 tracks per cylinder and apparently does not support
multiple cylinder VTOC's.

George Shedlock
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The suggestion on the UID card helped clear that particular hurdle.
To get around the F4 DSCB issue, Icopied dlib01.2311 from my OS360
directory, and it started formatting.
Messages on console are now (hopefully no typos...)
...
// EXEC INTDSK
CONTROL CARD ANALYSIS AND LABEL CHECKING
UTILITY MODIFIER CARD
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
SURFACE ANALYSIS AND HA-R0 GENERATION
SYSOPT
But.... Now our old friend "command reject" at cylinder 200 has
appeared. Sigh.
024F:CCW=150016A0 40000E78=>00C80000 00000E70 55555555
55555555 .H..............
024F:Stat=0E40 Count=0E78
024F:Sense=80000000 00C80002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
024F:Sense=CMDREJ
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00060000 F0FFFFFF
Still, definite progress.
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Thanks again. I tried the // UID IR,C1,R=(0027003). Now I am
getting message 4404A, and *that* message *is* documented in my DOS
operators guide -- it means that it cannot find the expected F4 in
the VTOC. So, I'll either need one with a proper VTOC or no VTOC
at
Post by cube1us
all.
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000300 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 8 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 1 kl 4 dl 24 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 28 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 2 kl 4 dl 144 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 148 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 3 kl 4 dl 80 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00
Count=0000 +
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: reading 4 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 80 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 =>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 CCW=001AA0
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:ckddasd: reading 0 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 8 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 =>00000000 00000000 E2C3D9E3
C3C80000 ........SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 CCW=001AA0
(SCRTCH is what I actually labelled the pack with dasdinit).
So, I'll try some packs I initialized with IBCDASD for OS/360, and
see what happens. (Copes of packs, of course... 8^) )
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-08-22 17:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Thanks. Great suggestions. I'll try them when I get a chance (like,
when I'm not working. ;^) )

Jay Jaeger
Post by gshedlk
Jay,
// UID IA,C1
The IR you were using says that previously flagged defective tracks
will retain thier defective flags. IA will ignore any defective
flags and do a complete surface analysis. The IQ you tried earlier,
only applies to 3330, 3333 and 3340 drives.
The R=(....) parameter says "Indicates the physical location of a
track that must be unconditionally flagged defective.". Since you
presumably don't have any defective tracks, you can leave this
parameter off.
The next thing that will bite you is your // VTOC statement. The
// VTOC STRTADR=(cccchhh),EXTENT=(nn)
For a 2311 the cylinder (cccc) may have a value of 0000-0199 and
the extent (nn) may have a value of up to 10 (since the 2311 has
only 10 tracks per cylinder and apparently does not support
multiple cylinder VTOC's.
George Shedlock
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The suggestion on the UID card helped clear that particular
hurdle.
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
To get around the F4 DSCB issue, Icopied dlib01.2311 from my
OS360
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
directory, and it started formatting.
Messages on console are now (hopefully no typos...)
...
// EXEC INTDSK
CONTROL CARD ANALYSIS AND LABEL CHECKING
UTILITY MODIFIER CARD
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
SURFACE ANALYSIS AND HA-R0 GENERATION
SYSOPT
But.... Now our old friend "command reject" at cylinder 200 has
appeared. Sigh.
024F:CCW=150016A0 40000E78=>00C80000 00000E70 55555555
55555555 .H..............
024F:Stat=0E40 Count=0E78
024F:Sense=80000000 00C80002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
024F:Sense=CMDREJ
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00060000 F0FFFFFF
Still, definite progress.
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Thanks again. I tried the // UID IR,C1,R=(0027003). Now I am
getting message 4404A, and *that* message *is* documented in my
DOS
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
operators guide -- it means that it cannot find the expected F4 in
the VTOC. So, I'll either need one with a proper VTOC or no VTOC
at
Post by cube1us
all.
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000300 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 8 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 1 kl 4 dl 24 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 28 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 2 kl 4 dl 144 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 148 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 3 kl 4 dl 80 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00
Count=0000
+
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: reading 4 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 80 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 =>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 CCW=001AA0
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:ckddasd: reading 0 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 8 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 =>00000000 00000000 E2C3D9E3
C3C80000 ........SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 CCW=001AA0
(SCRTCH is what I actually labelled the pack with dasdinit).
So, I'll try some packs I initialized with IBCDASD for OS/360, and
see what happens. (Copes of packs, of course... 8^) )
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-08-23 02:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Thanks. It was worth a try. Also dies with CMD REJ under Herc 2.12

024F:CCW=150016A0 40000E78=>00C80000 00000E70 55555555
55555555 .H..............
024F:Stat=0E40 Count=0E78
024F:Sense=80000000 00C80002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
024F:Sense=CMDREJ
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00060000 F0FFFFFF

So, I'll have to wait or finally bite the bullet and upgrade Hercules
somehow.

Jay Jaeger
Post by gshedlk
Jay,
// UID IA,C1
The IR you were using says that previously flagged defective tracks
will retain thier defective flags. IA will ignore any defective
flags and do a complete surface analysis. The IQ you tried earlier,
only applies to 3330, 3333 and 3340 drives.
The R=(....) parameter says "Indicates the physical location of a
track that must be unconditionally flagged defective.". Since you
presumably don't have any defective tracks, you can leave this
parameter off.
The next thing that will bite you is your // VTOC statement. The
// VTOC STRTADR=(cccchhh),EXTENT=(nn)
For a 2311 the cylinder (cccc) may have a value of 0000-0199 and
the extent (nn) may have a value of up to 10 (since the 2311 has
only 10 tracks per cylinder and apparently does not support
multiple cylinder VTOC's.
George Shedlock
Post by cube1us
First a question: Is 2.17b8 livable under Win32 (Windows 2000 PRO)?
Are there current build instructions somewhere? (Otherwise, I also
have Linux RH 7.2 with a 2.4.18 kernel I could try, I suppose).
The suggestion on the UID card helped clear that particular
hurdle.
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
To get around the F4 DSCB issue, Icopied dlib01.2311 from my
OS360
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
directory, and it started formatting.
Messages on console are now (hopefully no typos...)
...
// EXEC INTDSK
CONTROL CARD ANALYSIS AND LABEL CHECKING
UTILITY MODIFIER CARD
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
SURFACE ANALYSIS AND HA-R0 GENERATION
SYSOPT
But.... Now our old friend "command reject" at cylinder 200 has
appeared. Sigh.
024F:CCW=150016A0 40000E78=>00C80000 00000E70 55555555
55555555 .H..............
024F:Stat=0E40 Count=0E78
024F:Sense=80000000 00C80002 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
024F:Sense=CMDREJ
CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00060000 F0FFFFFF
Still, definite progress.
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Thanks again. I tried the // UID IR,C1,R=(0027003). Now I am
getting message 4404A, and *that* message *is* documented in my
DOS
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
operators guide -- it means that it cannot find the expected F4 in
the VTOC. So, I'll either need one with a proper VTOC or no VTOC
at
Post by cube1us
all.
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000300 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 8 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 1 kl 4 dl 24 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 28 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 2 kl 4 dl 144 of 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=08001A88 00000003=>31001B30 60000005 08001A88
00000003 ....-
Post by cube1us
......h....
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 03000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: skipping 148 bytes
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 3 kl 4 dl 80 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00
Count=0000
+
Post by gshedlk
Post by cube1us
Post by cube1us
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: reading 4 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 80 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 =>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0038 CCW=001AA0
024F:CCW=07001B2E 40000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: seeking to cyl 0 head 0
024F:ckddasd: file 1 selected for cyl 0
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=31001B30 60000005=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
024F:ckddasd: cyl 0 head 0 record 0 kl 0 dl 8 of 0
024F:Stat=4C00 Count=0000
024F:CCW=0E001BE9 2000008C=>E5D6D3F1 E5D6D3F1 E2C3D9E3 C3C80000
VOL1VOL1SCRTCH..
024F:ckddasd: reading 0 bytes
024F:ckddasd: reading 8 bytes
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 =>00000000 00000000 E2C3D9E3
C3C80000 ........SCRTCH..
024F:Stat=0C00 Count=0084 CCW=001AA0
(SCRTCH is what I actually labelled the pack with dasdinit).
So, I'll try some packs I initialized with IBCDASD for OS/360, and
see what happens. (Copes of packs, of course... 8^) )
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
// EXEC INTDSK
// UID IQ <<<<<<<<<<<<<< apparent current problem
// VTOC STRTADR=(0190000),EXTENT=(30)
VOL1SYSRES
In a Operator Reference Guide I found the following
// UID IR,C1,R=(0027003)
// VTOC STANDARD
VOL111111
// END
/&
Regards Henk
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Conway, Steven F
2003-08-22 16:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Perfectly justified. We who use Herc for fun occasionally need to be reminded how this project works.

Unfortunately, we also need to be reminded to say "Thanks". So, thank you, all of you developers who are contributing your time and effort to make this work. I don't know how you do it; I'm too brain dead at the end of the day to do what you do. (Full disclosure - I couldn't do what most of you do with a full night's sleep, either!)

Cheers,,,Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: ivan_warhead [mailto:ivan-lnHwE90NT89Ooi3Kub+***@public.gmane.org]

<rant>
-snipped-
</rant>

Sorry for the rant folks..

--Ivan


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snhstq
2003-09-01 19:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
- Anyone who has any memory of the error codes from DOS/360 INTDSK
Hi Jay,

Better late then never... :-)

1040A - Missing JOB card

1050A - Missing DATE statement.

1110A - Two JOB cards

1200A - Invalid job-control card (Does not start with //blank

1210A - Columns 1-15 of a continuation card are not blank

1220A - The job-control card just read contains an invalid operation
code.

1230A - TPLAB card does not follow VOL card

130nA - The nth operand of the job-control card just read was invalid.

1703A - PAUSE card has been processed

1704A - Label card in error.

0900 - I/O error during IPL.

0cuu - I/O error on channel c and unit uu

0701 - Program check

0702A - Operator has pressed the Request key on the console

0704A - The phase requested in a fetch operation can't be found in
the Core Image Libray.

Regards Henk Stegeman


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cube1us
2003-09-01 19:51:00 UTC
Permalink
For what its worth, these appear to the full DOS error codes, or
something else. For example, I doubt very much that the standalone
INTDSK deals with TPLAB control statements.

Curious: Where did you find these?

We do know some of the from trial and error, as well (since we now
have INTDSK running).

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
- Anyone who has any memory of the error codes from DOS/360 INTDSK
Hi Jay,
Better late then never... :-)
1040A - Missing JOB card
1050A - Missing DATE statement.
1110A - Two JOB cards
1200A - Invalid job-control card (Does not start with //blank
1210A - Columns 1-15 of a continuation card are not blank
1220A - The job-control card just read contains an invalid
operation
Post by snhstq
code.
1230A - TPLAB card does not follow VOL card
130nA - The nth operand of the job-control card just read was
invalid.
Post by snhstq
1703A - PAUSE card has been processed
1704A - Label card in error.
0900 - I/O error during IPL.
0cuu - I/O error on channel c and unit uu
0701 - Program check
0702A - Operator has pressed the Request key on the console
0704A - The phase requested in a fetch operation can't be found in
the Core Image Libray.
Regards Henk Stegeman
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snhstq
2003-09-02 07:40:40 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "cube1us" <***@c...> wrote:
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
For what its worth, these appear to the full DOS error codes, or
something else. For example, I doubt very much that the standalone
INTDSK deals with TPLAB control statements.
What you call standalone INTDSK is actually build up of:
1) IPL deck (Issues 0900 message)
2) Supervisor deck (Issues 07xx messages)
3) JOB controller (Issues 10xx, 11xx & 12xx messages)
4) JCL statements
5) INTDSK program (Issues probably 4xxx message (I am not sure of
this)).

When a TPLAB statement is needed for a program and coded wrongly,
the JOB controller will issue a message 1230A.
Post by cube1us
Curious: Where did you find these?
BPS Operator Guide 1968.
Post by cube1us
We do know some of the from trial and error, as well (since we now
have INTDSK running).
As said before: better late then never... and usefull for later
reference.

Regards Henk Stegeman


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cube1us
2003-09-03 01:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Interesting. Of course, this is from 5 years later or so, so BPS
might have evolved a little.

Near as I can tell from the 4000 series numbers seem to deal with
IOCS.

You might look up these codes, involved with DISREST (restore)

4307A (In DOS, this is a no record found)
4308A (In DOS, this is a EOF / no record found)
4428A (This appears to mean "VTOC in the wrong place, dummy")
4444A (This appears to be a volume overide of some sort)

Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials). Any idea
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and it is
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on the
front of the tape image.

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
For what its worth, these appear to the full DOS error codes, or
something else. For example, I doubt very much that the
standalone
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
INTDSK deals with TPLAB control statements.
1) IPL deck (Issues 0900 message)
2) Supervisor deck (Issues 07xx messages)
3) JOB controller (Issues 10xx, 11xx & 12xx messages)
4) JCL statements
5) INTDSK program (Issues probably 4xxx message (I am not sure of
this)).
When a TPLAB statement is needed for a program and coded wrongly,
the JOB controller will issue a message 1230A.
Post by cube1us
Curious: Where did you find these?
BPS Operator Guide 1968.
Post by cube1us
We do know some of the from trial and error, as well (since we now
have INTDSK running).
As said before: better late then never... and usefull for later
reference.
Regards Henk Stegeman
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somitcw
2003-09-03 01:40:32 UTC
Permalink
There probably wasn't much change to BPS from
1968 to 1973 or later. Most changes were probably
for new device support.

MVS optional materials is RECFM=FB, LRECL=80,
BLKSIZE=12000. DOS may be card image also?
Perhaps CATALS for MAINT?

Why not post the first couple of hundred bytes
in hex to see if someone recognizes the format?
Post by cube1us
Interesting. Of course, this is from 5 years
later or so, so BPS might have evolved a little.
Near as I can tell from the 4000 series numbers
seem to deal with IOCS.
You might look up these codes, involved with
DISREST (restore)
4307A (In DOS, this is a no record found)
4308A (In DOS, this is a EOF / no record found)
4428A (This appears to mean "VTOC in the wrong place, dummy")
4444A (This appears to be a volume overide of some sort)
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional
materials). Any idea what they were "typically"
restored with? I linked CRTD, and it is choking,
but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files
on the front of the tape image.
Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
- - - snipped - - -


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snhstq
2003-09-03 18:31:17 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "cube1us" <***@c...> wrote:
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials). Any idea
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and it is
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on the
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple source
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.

You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.

Regards Henk


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cube1us
2003-09-05 01:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Here is what a tape map shows. The first file is IPL-able and
contains some semblance of DOS --- or --- (more on that later).



File 1: Blocks=5, block size min=24, max=4096
File 2: Blocks=985, block size min=34, max=4096
File 3: Blocks=13157, block size min=14, max=162
File 4: Blocks=10, block size min=172, max=172
File 5: Blocks=4446, block size min=27, max=172
File 6: Blocks=27, block size min=27, max=172
File 7: Blocks=1, block size min=26, max=26
File 8: Blocks=12, block size min=24, max=109
File 9: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 10: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 11: Blocks=0, block size min=0, max=0
End of tape.


The last two 80 byte records appear to be some kind of trailer, and
contain:

360M.BIN1060.LCL405.V02M09.BASIC

By way of contrast, the trailers for the other two volumes are:

(First volume has no trailer)
360N.BIN0712.LCL453.V26M02.BASIC

360M-CL-405 is the designation for the TOS control program.

The label on the tape (which is not currently in my possession)
is believed to read:

BASIC 4968205 360N OPT1 26 R 15 BT02-14
7DC/800 FEET 049 054 054 MA122A B10602

Things would make more sense if the 360N is in fact 360M (and it
would be really, really neat, too).

When I IPL it goes into an ordinary wait. I then feed it almost
anything (console, cards, i on 180, ..., it goes into a disabled wait:

devinit c intdsk.jcl ascii eof
HHCPN098I Device 000C initialized
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A

r 0
R:00000000:K:06=03E60180 00000800 0000C000 00000000 .W........{.....

The word a L(0) is 03E6 is, according to the DOS manual,
an "irrecoverable disk error during program fetch", and 0180 would be
the device (the tape drive).

The first blocks (in aws format) are

0000000 0018 0000 00a0 0000 0000 0000 0030 0002
0000020 0030 0020 0010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0688
0000040 0018 00a0 f005 07d2 5800 5ef0 0080 b5f2
0000060 0080 b6f2 03d2 5000 76f0 07d2 6800 46f0
0000100 b041 83f6 ffd2 00b0 82f6 bb41 0001 f047
0000120 1ef0 a048 0200 a040 8cf0 f047 8ef0 0000
0000140 0000 0000 05ff 0000 0000 5e32 0000 0000
0000160 0000 2e30 0000 0000 0000 ee31 0000 0000
0000200 0000 b831 0000 0000 0000 1030 0600 0000
0000220 0000 0000 0002 8f32 0020 1f00 ffff ffff
0000240 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000260 e607 0000 d041 6ef0 d050 4800 009c 00a0
0000300 009d 00a0 7047 9af0 0291 4400 8047 ccf0
0000320 03d2 0000 8af0 0792 6ef0 d050 4800 009c
0000340 00a0 009d 00a0 7047 bcf0 0092 66f0 0082
0000360 66f0 0047 76f1 0047 58f1 01d5 9cf2 62f6
0000400 d047 44f1 2b18 b058 76f6 db18 2049 64f6
0000420 d047 fef2 2049 66f6 2047 fcf0 01d2 64f6
0000440 7af6 d04a 64f6 c048 7cf6 e045 8ef5 f04a
0000460 64f6 f047 10f1 b041 66f6 bb41 0200 01d2
0000500 20f1 00b0 c041 0000 02d2 7ff6 00c0 d058
0000520 7ef6 d04a 64f6 d050 7ef6 02d2 00c0 7ff6
0000540 0095 02b0 7047 14f1 b218 a048 8cf0 6048
0000560 a8f2 01d2 74f0 a6f2 cc1b f096 d1f0 c050

Jay
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials). Any
idea
Post by cube1us
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and it is
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on the
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple source
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.
You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-09-05 01:55:16 UTC
Permalink
Well, some more news. This is beginning to look more and more like
it is actually TOS on that 3rd tape.

If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.

If I give it something that might be useful, I get the disabled wait
on the I/O error. But.... there is perhaps a good reason.

The sequence at the end looks like this:

HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP076I 0180:Sense=00080000 00C00300 00000000 00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0180:Sense=NRF
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=04000EE8 20000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>00080000 00C00000 00000000
00000000 .....{..........
HHCCP051I 0180: Test I/O
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E70
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A

That CCW is a read backward. It eventually gets a unit check, and
dies. That makes at least some sense -- if we suppose that maybe
read backward has a small bug somewhere (since it probably doesn't
get used much).

Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Here is what a tape map shows. The first file is IPL-able and
contains some semblance of DOS --- or --- (more on that later).
File 1: Blocks=5, block size min=24, max=4096
File 2: Blocks=985, block size min=34, max=4096
File 3: Blocks=13157, block size min=14, max=162
File 4: Blocks=10, block size min=172, max=172
File 5: Blocks=4446, block size min=27, max=172
File 6: Blocks=27, block size min=27, max=172
File 7: Blocks=1, block size min=26, max=26
File 8: Blocks=12, block size min=24, max=109
File 9: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 10: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 11: Blocks=0, block size min=0, max=0
End of tape.
The last two 80 byte records appear to be some kind of trailer, and
360M.BIN1060.LCL405.V02M09.BASIC
(First volume has no trailer)
360N.BIN0712.LCL453.V26M02.BASIC
360M-CL-405 is the designation for the TOS control program.
The label on the tape (which is not currently in my possession)
BASIC 4968205 360N OPT1 26 R 15 BT02-14
7DC/800 FEET 049 054 054 MA122A B10602
Things would make more sense if the 360N is in fact 360M (and it
would be really, really neat, too).
When I IPL it goes into an ordinary wait. I then feed it almost
devinit c intdsk.jcl ascii eof
HHCPN098I Device 000C initialized
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
r 0
R:00000000:K:06=03E60180 00000800 0000C000 00000000 .W........
{.....
Post by cube1us
The word a L(0) is 03E6 is, according to the DOS manual,
an "irrecoverable disk error during program fetch", and 0180 would be
the device (the tape drive).
The first blocks (in aws format) are
0000000 0018 0000 00a0 0000 0000 0000 0030 0002
0000020 0030 0020 0010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0688
0000040 0018 00a0 f005 07d2 5800 5ef0 0080 b5f2
0000060 0080 b6f2 03d2 5000 76f0 07d2 6800 46f0
0000100 b041 83f6 ffd2 00b0 82f6 bb41 0001 f047
0000120 1ef0 a048 0200 a040 8cf0 f047 8ef0 0000
0000140 0000 0000 05ff 0000 0000 5e32 0000 0000
0000160 0000 2e30 0000 0000 0000 ee31 0000 0000
0000200 0000 b831 0000 0000 0000 1030 0600 0000
0000220 0000 0000 0002 8f32 0020 1f00 ffff ffff
0000240 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000260 e607 0000 d041 6ef0 d050 4800 009c 00a0
0000300 009d 00a0 7047 9af0 0291 4400 8047 ccf0
0000320 03d2 0000 8af0 0792 6ef0 d050 4800 009c
0000340 00a0 009d 00a0 7047 bcf0 0092 66f0 0082
0000360 66f0 0047 76f1 0047 58f1 01d5 9cf2 62f6
0000400 d047 44f1 2b18 b058 76f6 db18 2049 64f6
0000420 d047 fef2 2049 66f6 2047 fcf0 01d2 64f6
0000440 7af6 d04a 64f6 c048 7cf6 e045 8ef5 f04a
0000460 64f6 f047 10f1 b041 66f6 bb41 0200 01d2
0000500 20f1 00b0 c041 0000 02d2 7ff6 00c0 d058
0000520 7ef6 d04a 64f6 d050 7ef6 02d2 00c0 7ff6
0000540 0095 02b0 7047 14f1 b218 a048 8cf0 6048
0000560 a8f2 01d2 74f0 a6f2 cc1b f096 d1f0 c050
Jay
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials).
Any
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
idea
Post by cube1us
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and
it
Post by cube1us
is
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on the
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple
source
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.
You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.
Regards Henk
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Gregg C Levine
2003-09-05 02:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I feel as if I walked into a conference room late. Jay, this is one of
the early operating systems for the family? Correct? Where does TOS
fit into the sequence? DOS/360, is obviously one of the ones after
OS/360, but where's TOS in there? Or did I just say that?
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
Post by Conway, Steven F
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:55 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: DOS/360 News
Well, some more news. This is beginning to look more and more like
it is actually TOS on that 3rd tape.
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
If I give it something that might be useful, I get the disabled wait
on the I/O error. But.... there is perhaps a good reason.
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4
4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4
4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4
4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4
4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP076I 0180:Sense=00080000 00C00300 00000000 00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0180:Sense=NRF
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=04000EE8 20000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>00080000 00C00000 00000000
00000000 .....{..........
HHCCP051I 0180: Test I/O
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E70
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
That CCW is a read backward. It eventually gets a unit check, and
dies. That makes at least some sense -- if we suppose that maybe
read backward has a small bug somewhere (since it probably doesn't
get used much).
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Here is what a tape map shows. The first file is IPL-able and
contains some semblance of DOS --- or --- (more on that later).
File 1: Blocks=5, block size min=24, max=4096
File 2: Blocks=985, block size min=34, max=4096
File 3: Blocks=13157, block size min=14, max=162
File 4: Blocks=10, block size min=172, max=172
File 5: Blocks=4446, block size min=27, max=172
File 6: Blocks=27, block size min=27, max=172
File 7: Blocks=1, block size min=26, max=26
File 8: Blocks=12, block size min=24, max=109
File 9: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 10: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 11: Blocks=0, block size min=0, max=0
End of tape.
The last two 80 byte records appear to be some kind of trailer, and
360M.BIN1060.LCL405.V02M09.BASIC
(First volume has no trailer)
360N.BIN0712.LCL453.V26M02.BASIC
360M-CL-405 is the designation for the TOS control program.
The label on the tape (which is not currently in my possession)
BASIC 4968205 360N OPT1 26 R 15 BT02-14
7DC/800 FEET 049 054 054 MA122A B10602
Things would make more sense if the 360N is in fact 360M (and it
would be really, really neat, too).
When I IPL it goes into an ordinary wait. I then feed it almost
anything (console, cards, i on 180, ..., it goes into a disabled
devinit c intdsk.jcl ascii eof
HHCPN098I Device 000C initialized
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
r 0
R:00000000:K:06=03E60180 00000800 0000C000 00000000 .W........
{.....
Post by cube1us
The word a L(0) is 03E6 is, according to the DOS manual,
an "irrecoverable disk error during program fetch", and 0180 would
be
Post by cube1us
the device (the tape drive).
The first blocks (in aws format) are
0000000 0018 0000 00a0 0000 0000 0000 0030 0002
0000020 0030 0020 0010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0688
0000040 0018 00a0 f005 07d2 5800 5ef0 0080 b5f2
0000060 0080 b6f2 03d2 5000 76f0 07d2 6800 46f0
0000100 b041 83f6 ffd2 00b0 82f6 bb41 0001 f047
0000120 1ef0 a048 0200 a040 8cf0 f047 8ef0 0000
0000140 0000 0000 05ff 0000 0000 5e32 0000 0000
0000160 0000 2e30 0000 0000 0000 ee31 0000 0000
0000200 0000 b831 0000 0000 0000 1030 0600 0000
0000220 0000 0000 0002 8f32 0020 1f00 ffff ffff
0000240 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000260 e607 0000 d041 6ef0 d050 4800 009c 00a0
0000300 009d 00a0 7047 9af0 0291 4400 8047 ccf0
0000320 03d2 0000 8af0 0792 6ef0 d050 4800 009c
0000340 00a0 009d 00a0 7047 bcf0 0092 66f0 0082
0000360 66f0 0047 76f1 0047 58f1 01d5 9cf2 62f6
0000400 d047 44f1 2b18 b058 76f6 db18 2049 64f6
0000420 d047 fef2 2049 66f6 2047 fcf0 01d2 64f6
0000440 7af6 d04a 64f6 c048 7cf6 e045 8ef5 f04a
0000460 64f6 f047 10f1 b041 66f6 bb41 0200 01d2
0000500 20f1 00b0 c041 0000 02d2 7ff6 00c0 d058
0000520 7ef6 d04a 64f6 d050 7ef6 02d2 00c0 7ff6
0000540 0095 02b0 7047 14f1 b218 a048 8cf0 6048
0000560 a8f2 01d2 74f0 a6f2 cc1b f096 d1f0 c050
Jay
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials).
Any
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
idea
Post by cube1us
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and
it
Post by cube1us
is
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on
the
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple
source
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.
You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.
Regards Henk
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somitcw
2003-09-05 02:32:50 UTC
Permalink
I believe that the original five operating systems
were:
TOS - Tape operating system
DOS - Disk operating system
BOS - Basic operating system
OS - Operating system ( PCP, then MFT and MVT )
BPS - Basic programming system

TOS and DOS were said to be much alike, but
I never used TOS. I assume that if you had
a disk, you would have used DOS.

Also see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/files/$OSTL8.TXT
Timeline and Explanation of IBM Operating Systems
Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I feel as if I walked into a conference room late.
Jay, this is one of the early operating systems
for the family? Correct? Where does TOS fit into
the sequence? DOS/360, is obviously one of the
ones after OS/360, but where's TOS in there?
Or did I just say that?
- - - snipped - - -


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peter_flass
2003-09-08 12:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by somitcw
I believe that the original five operating systems
TOS - Tape operating system
DOS - Disk operating system
BOS - Basic operating system
OS - Operating system ( PCP, then MFT and MVT )
BPS - Basic programming system
Basic Programming Support
Post by somitcw
TOS and DOS were said to be much alike, but
I never used TOS. I assume that if you had
a disk, you would have used DOS.
This sounds about right.



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George
2003-09-05 03:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

Please create a userid on my web site and then upload the AWS file for
tape 3 to the DOS/360 file gallery. I can take a look at it and maybe
find something. Others may be able to help out also, given the chance.

The web address is http://home.cfl.rr.com/vmwkshop and the select the
*NEW* section. Then Register (top right), login, and navigate to the
file galleries (left side) and upload the file.

If you have any problems, let me know. If there is a concern about
others getting to the file, I can set the security so that only you can
get to it.

George
Post by cube1us
Well, some more news. This is beginning to look more and more like
it is actually TOS on that 3rd tape.
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
If I give it something that might be useful, I get the disabled wait
on the I/O error. But.... there is perhaps a good reason.
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP076I 0180:Sense=00080000 00C00300 00000000 00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0180:Sense=NRF
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=04000EE8 20000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>00080000 00C00000 00000000
00000000 .....{..........
HHCCP051I 0180: Test I/O
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E70
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
That CCW is a read backward. It eventually gets a unit check, and
dies. That makes at least some sense -- if we suppose that maybe
read backward has a small bug somewhere (since it probably doesn't
get used much).
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Here is what a tape map shows. The first file is IPL-able and
contains some semblance of DOS --- or --- (more on that later).
File 1: Blocks=5, block size min=24, max=4096
File 2: Blocks=985, block size min=34, max=4096
File 3: Blocks=13157, block size min=14, max=162
File 4: Blocks=10, block size min=172, max=172
File 5: Blocks=4446, block size min=27, max=172
File 6: Blocks=27, block size min=27, max=172
File 7: Blocks=1, block size min=26, max=26
File 8: Blocks=12, block size min=24, max=109
File 9: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 10: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 11: Blocks=0, block size min=0, max=0
End of tape.
The last two 80 byte records appear to be some kind of trailer, and
360M.BIN1060.LCL405.V02M09.BASIC
(First volume has no trailer)
360N.BIN0712.LCL453.V26M02.BASIC
360M-CL-405 is the designation for the TOS control program.
The label on the tape (which is not currently in my possession)
BASIC 4968205 360N OPT1 26 R 15 BT02-14
7DC/800 FEET 049 054 054 MA122A B10602
Things would make more sense if the 360N is in fact 360M (and it
would be really, really neat, too).
When I IPL it goes into an ordinary wait. I then feed it almost
anything (console, cards, i on 180, ..., it goes into a disabled
devinit c intdsk.jcl ascii eof
HHCPN098I Device 000C initialized
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
r 0
R:00000000:K:06=03E60180 00000800 0000C000 00000000 .W........
{.....
Post by cube1us
The word a L(0) is 03E6 is, according to the DOS manual,
an "irrecoverable disk error during program fetch", and 0180 would
be
Post by cube1us
the device (the tape drive).
The first blocks (in aws format) are
0000000 0018 0000 00a0 0000 0000 0000 0030 0002
0000020 0030 0020 0010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0688
0000040 0018 00a0 f005 07d2 5800 5ef0 0080 b5f2
0000060 0080 b6f2 03d2 5000 76f0 07d2 6800 46f0
0000100 b041 83f6 ffd2 00b0 82f6 bb41 0001 f047
0000120 1ef0 a048 0200 a040 8cf0 f047 8ef0 0000
0000140 0000 0000 05ff 0000 0000 5e32 0000 0000
0000160 0000 2e30 0000 0000 0000 ee31 0000 0000
0000200 0000 b831 0000 0000 0000 1030 0600 0000
0000220 0000 0000 0002 8f32 0020 1f00 ffff ffff
0000240 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000260 e607 0000 d041 6ef0 d050 4800 009c 00a0
0000300 009d 00a0 7047 9af0 0291 4400 8047 ccf0
0000320 03d2 0000 8af0 0792 6ef0 d050 4800 009c
0000340 00a0 009d 00a0 7047 bcf0 0092 66f0 0082
0000360 66f0 0047 76f1 0047 58f1 01d5 9cf2 62f6
0000400 d047 44f1 2b18 b058 76f6 db18 2049 64f6
0000420 d047 fef2 2049 66f6 2047 fcf0 01d2 64f6
0000440 7af6 d04a 64f6 c048 7cf6 e045 8ef5 f04a
0000460 64f6 f047 10f1 b041 66f6 bb41 0200 01d2
0000500 20f1 00b0 c041 0000 02d2 7ff6 00c0 d058
0000520 7ef6 d04a 64f6 d050 7ef6 02d2 00c0 7ff6
0000540 0095 02b0 7047 14f1 b218 a048 8cf0 6048
0000560 a8f2 01d2 74f0 a6f2 cc1b f096 d1f0 c050
Jay
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials).
Any
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
idea
Post by cube1us
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and
it
Post by cube1us
is
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on
the
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple
source
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.
You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.
Regards Henk
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cube1us
2003-09-05 02:55:28 UTC
Permalink
I'd prefer to keep them all on one home. Jay Maynard has links to
their location, and has agreed to mirror them on ibiblio when he gets
a chance.

I am now 90% sure this is TOS. The only bit of evidence against that
is the "N" in 360N, but I suspect that is a mis-transcription.
*Everything* else points to this being TOS.

I suspect at this point it is going to take some debugging of the
Hercules tape read backward to get it to run.

Jay Jaeger
Post by George
Jay,
Please create a userid on my web site and then upload the AWS file for
tape 3 to the DOS/360 file gallery. I can take a look at it and maybe
find something. Others may be able to help out also, given the
chance.
Post by George
The web address is http://home.cfl.rr.com/vmwkshop and the select the
*NEW* section. Then Register (top right), login, and navigate to the
file galleries (left side) and upload the file.
If you have any problems, let me know. If there is a concern about
others getting to the file, I can set the security so that only you can
get to it.
George
Post by cube1us
Well, some more news. This is beginning to look more and more like
it is actually TOS on that 3rd tape.
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
If I give it something that might be useful, I get the disabled wait
on the I/O error. But.... there is perhaps a good reason.
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C40 Count=0025 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=0C0015F7 0000003D=>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 =>C3C1E3D3 C5C6C3F4 4000002F
0000003E CATLEFC4 .......
HHCCP076I 0180:Sense=00080000 00C00300 00000000 00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0180:Sense=NRF
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0E00 Count=0000 CCW=000E68
HHCCP048I 0180:CCW=04000EE8 20000006=>00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 ................
HHCCP075I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 =>00080000 00C00000 00000000
00000000 .....{..........
HHCCP051I 0180: Test I/O
HHCCP049I 0180:Stat=0C00 Count=0000 CCW=000E70
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
That CCW is a read backward. It eventually gets a unit check, and
dies. That makes at least some sense -- if we suppose that maybe
read backward has a small bug somewhere (since it probably doesn't
get used much).
Jay Jaeger
Post by cube1us
Here is what a tape map shows. The first file is IPL-able and
contains some semblance of DOS --- or --- (more on that later).
File 1: Blocks=5, block size min=24, max=4096
File 2: Blocks=985, block size min=34, max=4096
File 3: Blocks=13157, block size min=14, max=162
File 4: Blocks=10, block size min=172, max=172
File 5: Blocks=4446, block size min=27, max=172
File 6: Blocks=27, block size min=27, max=172
File 7: Blocks=1, block size min=26, max=26
File 8: Blocks=12, block size min=24, max=109
File 9: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 10: Blocks=1, block size min=80, max=80
File 11: Blocks=0, block size min=0, max=0
End of tape.
The last two 80 byte records appear to be some kind of trailer, and
360M.BIN1060.LCL405.V02M09.BASIC
(First volume has no trailer)
360N.BIN0712.LCL453.V26M02.BASIC
360M-CL-405 is the designation for the TOS control program.
The label on the tape (which is not currently in my possession)
BASIC 4968205 360N OPT1 26 R 15 BT02-14
7DC/800 FEET 049 054 054 MA122A B10602
Things would make more sense if the 360N is in fact 360M (and it
would be really, really neat, too).
When I IPL it goes into an ordinary wait. I then feed it almost
anything (console, cards, i on 180, ..., it goes into a disabled
devinit c intdsk.jcl ascii eof
HHCPN098I Device 000C initialized
HHCCP011I CPU0000: Disabled wait state
PSW=00E20000 8020003A
r 0
R:00000000:K:06=03E60180 00000800 0000C000 00000000 .W........
{.....
Post by cube1us
The word a L(0) is 03E6 is, according to the DOS manual,
an "irrecoverable disk error during program fetch", and 0180 would
be
Post by cube1us
the device (the tape drive).
The first blocks (in aws format) are
0000000 0018 0000 00a0 0000 0000 0000 0030 0002
0000020 0030 0020 0010 0000 0000 0000 0000 0688
0000040 0018 00a0 f005 07d2 5800 5ef0 0080 b5f2
0000060 0080 b6f2 03d2 5000 76f0 07d2 6800 46f0
0000100 b041 83f6 ffd2 00b0 82f6 bb41 0001 f047
0000120 1ef0 a048 0200 a040 8cf0 f047 8ef0 0000
0000140 0000 0000 05ff 0000 0000 5e32 0000 0000
0000160 0000 2e30 0000 0000 0000 ee31 0000 0000
0000200 0000 b831 0000 0000 0000 1030 0600 0000
0000220 0000 0000 0002 8f32 0020 1f00 ffff ffff
0000240 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000260 e607 0000 d041 6ef0 d050 4800 009c 00a0
0000300 009d 00a0 7047 9af0 0291 4400 8047 ccf0
0000320 03d2 0000 8af0 0792 6ef0 d050 4800 009c
0000340 00a0 009d 00a0 7047 bcf0 0092 66f0 0082
0000360 66f0 0047 76f1 0047 58f1 01d5 9cf2 62f6
0000400 d047 44f1 2b18 b058 76f6 db18 2049 64f6
0000420 d047 fef2 2049 66f6 2047 fcf0 01d2 64f6
0000440 7af6 d04a 64f6 c048 7cf6 e045 8ef5 f04a
0000460 64f6 f047 10f1 b041 66f6 bb41 0200 01d2
0000500 20f1 00b0 c041 0000 02d2 7ff6 00c0 d058
0000520 7ef6 d04a 64f6 d050 7ef6 02d2 00c0 7ff6
0000540 0095 02b0 7047 14f1 b218 a048 8cf0 6048
0000560 a8f2 01d2 74f0 a6f2 cc1b f096 d1f0 c050
Jay
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay,
Post by cube1us
Am still struggling with the 3rd tape (optional materials).
Any
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
idea
Post by cube1us
what they were "typically" restored with? I linked CRTD, and
it
Post by cube1us
is
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
choking, but I haven't yet tried skipping 1 or more files on
the
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
front of the tape image.
It is important to determine first if the tape contains
a physical backup of a drive or a logical backup of multiple
source
Post by cube1us
Post by snhstq
files.
Any idea ? Please post a dump of the first 100 bytes in hex.
You tried CRTD, but there is also a TPDK utility.
SYS004 for the source tape and SYS005 for the target disk.
Regards Henk
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Jay Maynard
2003-09-05 03:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
I suspect at this point it is going to take some debugging of the
Hercules tape read backward to get it to run.
Volker had some fixes to READ BACKWARD in 2.17.1...so it's only been working
well recently. You might get him offline and see what might still need work.

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cube1us
2003-09-06 00:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Would that be later or earlier than the 2.17.b9 that I am currently
running?

Jay Jaeger
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
I suspect at this point it is going to take some debugging of the
Hercules tape read backward to get it to run.
Volker had some fixes to READ BACKWARD in 2.17.1...so it's only been working
well recently. You might get him offline and see what might still need work.
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Jay Maynard
2003-09-06 01:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by cube1us
I suspect at this point it is going to take some debugging of the
Hercules tape read backward to get it to run.
Volker had some fixes to READ BACKWARD in 2.17.1...so it's only been
working well recently. You might get him offline and see what might
still need work.
Would that be later or earlier than the 2.17.b9 that I am currently
running?
Earlier. Sounds like there are more fixes needed. My suggestion was that you
get with him so you wouldn't have to reinvent any wheels he'd already gone
over.

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George
2003-09-05 03:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Jay,

I was only trying to help. As I said, if I can get access to the tape
image I can try to help figure out what is on the tape and how to get it
off. Contact me privately with the pointer to the file, if I can
possibly be of some help.

George
Post by cube1us
I'd prefer to keep them all on one home. Jay Maynard has links to
their location, and has agreed to mirror them on ibiblio when he gets
a chance.
Jay Jaeger
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cube1us
2003-09-06 00:54:31 UTC
Permalink
I understand. Bandwidth and courtesy concerns. I will send a link
privately. For the rest, I'm sure that Jay Maynard will get to
posting them up as soon as he has the time.

I am 95% confident that this is TOS. Occam's razor points the way.

Jay Jaeger
Post by George
Jay,
I was only trying to help. As I said, if I can get access to the tape
image I can try to help figure out what is on the tape and how to get it
off. Contact me privately with the pointer to the file, if I can
possibly be of some help.
George
Post by cube1us
I'd prefer to keep them all on one home. Jay Maynard has links to
their location, and has agreed to mirror them on ibiblio when he gets
a chance.
Jay Jaeger
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snhstq
2003-09-05 13:53:35 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, "cube1us" <***@c...> wrote:
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
The IPL of Basic Tape System goes as follows:

1 Ready the unit (tape or card)
2 Dail the load addr on the system control panel.
3 Press LOAD

4a IPL program is loaded
4b Supervisoer is loaded
4c Program loader is loaded
5 The unit addr dailed in step 2 is stored in the device table
for SYSRDR and SYSIPT (CARD) or SYSRES (TAPE)
6 System goes in wait state

7 If tape was used to IPL and you want a CARD reader for job control
statements:
press STOP
enter CARD reader control unit, unit addr, dev type.
Press START

8 press INTERRUPT to resume opeartion.

Regards Henk

ps any idea when the tape images will be uploaded ?



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cube1us
2003-09-06 00:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Jay Maynard has indicated he will post the tape images to
ibiblio.org .

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
1 Ready the unit (tape or card)
2 Dail the load addr on the system control panel.
3 Press LOAD
4a IPL program is loaded
4b Supervisoer is loaded
4c Program loader is loaded
5 The unit addr dailed in step 2 is stored in the device table
for SYSRDR and SYSIPT (CARD) or SYSRES (TAPE)
6 System goes in wait state
7 If tape was used to IPL and you want a CARD reader for job control
press STOP
enter CARD reader control unit, unit addr, dev type.
Press START
8 press INTERRUPT to resume opeartion.
Regards Henk
ps any idea when the tape images will be uploaded ?
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Jay Maynard
2003-09-06 00:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Jay Maynard has indicated he will post the tape images to
ibiblio.org .
I will do so soon. Watch this space...well, not *this* space...well, I'll
annnounce...oh, you get the idea.

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A. Philip Dickinson
2003-09-06 01:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.

This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.

The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console (assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?

A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.

I shall investigate.

Phil.


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Edwin Handschuh
2003-09-06 01:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Phil

I'm assuming that you're NOT running the MVS Turnkey system on your Hercules
emulator. If you are, please disregard my "LOADxx" comment below since
LOADxx came in a later release of MVS (ESA).

Your "System Initialization and Tuning Guide" will help considerably.
You'll want to check out the "LOADxx" member. Look for the SYSPARM
statement. It allows you to specify your SYSP=xx value. You can also look
up the "CONSOLxx" member. In it you'll see how to config your consoles.
You can also issue commands in your "COMMNDxx" member as well.

On another note, if you'd like to automatically issue commands to the
operating system, you can run my MVS Script product for free (you can run it
from COMMNDxx too). You can view a copy of the documentation at:

www.SoftExcell.com/command/command.doc (if it prompts
for a password, just click the CANCEL button)

Pay no attention to the price listed on the net, that's only if you want
support.

If you'd like a copy, please email me:

Your name/email/phone
Your company's name/phone
Company's address
Your Manager's name/email/phone

HTH

Edwin Handschuh
Enterprise Operating Systems Architect
Independent Consultant
SoftExcell, Inc.
(215) 783-2208 - cell
(888) 445-0659 - pager
eth-***@public.gmane.org

Beachfront vacation properties: www.BeachVaca.com



-----Original Message-----
From: A. Philip Dickinson [mailto:phil-+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:33 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] Automating an IPL


Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.

This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.

The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console (assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?

A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.

I shall investigate.

Phil.


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
George
2003-09-06 02:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Edwin,

Since this list is focused on the Hercules-390 emulator environment, I
believe that it is safe to say that almost 100% of us are individual
hobbyists that are tinkering with the available public releases of the
IBM operating systems (MVS 3.8j, DOS/VS r34, VM/370 and DOS r26). As
hobbyists we are primarily individuals, not associated with a company
(at least for the purposes of Hercules testing).

Given that, is your offer of the code available to individual hobbyists?
I, for one, would be interested in a way to automate console functions,
but am currently unemployed, hence no company affiliation. Is your offer
still open to someone like me? Please respond privately, if you need to.

George Shedlock
Post by Edwin Handschuh
Phil
I'm assuming that you're NOT running the MVS Turnkey system on your Hercules
emulator. If you are, please disregard my "LOADxx" comment below since
LOADxx came in a later release of MVS (ESA).
Your "System Initialization and Tuning Guide" will help considerably.
You'll want to check out the "LOADxx" member. Look for the SYSPARM
statement. It allows you to specify your SYSP=xx value. You can also look
up the "CONSOLxx" member. In it you'll see how to config your
consoles.
You can also issue commands in your "COMMNDxx" member as well.
On another note, if you'd like to automatically issue commands to the
operating system, you can run my MVS Script product for free (you can run it
www.SoftExcell.com/command/command.doc (if it prompts
for a password, just click the CANCEL button)
Pay no attention to the price listed on the net, that's only if you want
support.
Your name/email/phone
Your company's name/phone
Company's address
Your Manager's name/email/phone
HTH
Edwin Handschuh
Enterprise Operating Systems Architect
Independent Consultant
SoftExcell, Inc.
(215) 783-2208 - cell
(888) 445-0659 - pager
Beachfront vacation properties: www.BeachVaca.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Automating an IPL
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console
(assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.
I shall investigate.
Phil.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Edwin Handschuh
2003-09-07 02:14:01 UTC
Permalink
George:

Yes, the offer still stands. I'll have to check to see if it will work with
3.8.j. Right now its linked AMODE=31 and its calling ASASYMBM (symbolic
substitution) which isn't available on 3.8.j. My guess is that I'll have to
retrofit the code to work on 3.8.j, but it shouldn't be a big deal. I'll
wait to see who's interested.

If you'd like to discuss this further, please contact me off-list at:
eth-***@public.gmane.org

Edwin Handschuh
Enterprise Operating Systems Architect
Independent Consultant
SoftExcell, Inc.
(215) 783-2208 - cell
(888) 445-0659 - pager
eth-***@public.gmane.org


Beachfront vacation properties: www.BeachVaca.com


-----Original Message-----
From: George [mailto:workshop-3tLf1voIkJTQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 10:29 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Automating an IPL


Edwin,

Since this list is focused on the Hercules-390 emulator environment, I
believe that it is safe to say that almost 100% of us are individual
hobbyists that are tinkering with the available public releases of the
IBM operating systems (MVS 3.8j, DOS/VS r34, VM/370 and DOS r26). As
hobbyists we are primarily individuals, not associated with a company
(at least for the purposes of Hercules testing).

Given that, is your offer of the code available to individual hobbyists?
I, for one, would be interested in a way to automate console functions,
but am currently unemployed, hence no company affiliation. Is your offer
still open to someone like me? Please respond privately, if you need to.

George Shedlock
Post by Edwin Handschuh
Phil
I'm assuming that you're NOT running the MVS Turnkey system on your Hercules
emulator. If you are, please disregard my "LOADxx" comment below since
LOADxx came in a later release of MVS (ESA).
Your "System Initialization and Tuning Guide" will help considerably.
You'll want to check out the "LOADxx" member. Look for the SYSPARM
statement. It allows you to specify your SYSP=xx value. You can also look
up the "CONSOLxx" member. In it you'll see how to config your
consoles.
You can also issue commands in your "COMMNDxx" member as well.
On another note, if you'd like to automatically issue commands to the
operating system, you can run my MVS Script product for free (you can run it
www.SoftExcell.com/command/command.doc (if it prompts
for a password, just click the CANCEL button)
Pay no attention to the price listed on the net, that's only if you want
support.
Your name/email/phone
Your company's name/phone
Company's address
Your Manager's name/email/phone
HTH
Edwin Handschuh
Enterprise Operating Systems Architect
Independent Consultant
SoftExcell, Inc.
(215) 783-2208 - cell
(888) 445-0659 - pager
Beachfront vacation properties: www.BeachVaca.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:33 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Automating an IPL
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console
(assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.
I shall investigate.
Phil.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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ADVERTISEMENT
[Click Here!]
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Scott Vetter
2003-09-06 02:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console (assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.
I shall investigate.
Phil.
It seems to me that there was a way to not have the IEA101A message
from poping up. It might have been doable in XA. Also I seem to recall
that you could use a printer and card reader as a master console as
well. Never checked into that.

If you use a 3270 emulator I would thing you could have some sort of
scripting mechanism to do what you desire.

Scott


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Kevin Leonard
2003-09-06 03:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically
reply to the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
MVT had a sysgen option on the SUPRVSOR stage 1 sysgen
macro that you had to specify if you wanted the IEA101A
message to be issued, otherwise it wouldn't be. I don't
think MVS 3.8 gives you a choice, the IEA101A message is
always issued. NIP could probably be modified fairly
simply to skip the message and assume a "U" reply.
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system
without a 3270 MVS console? I have vague recollections of
a config thatinvolved a 1403 for the log and a card reader
for entering commands.
MVS 3.8 still supports "composite consoles", one device
for input and another for output. The input console
device can be a card reader, and the output console
device can be a printer. I think it's possible to
specify a composite console as the master, although
I've never done it. Assuming that's true, the stage 1
definition would look something like:

CONSOLE MCONS=(I-10C,O-10E)

where 10C is the reader and 10E is the printer. As
I recall, you would want to dedicate 10C and 10E for
console use, even if you occasionally IPL with a 3270
master console, because defining readers and printers
as consoles requires you to always refer to them in
operator commands with the appropriate "I-" or "O-"
prefix (like "V O-10E,ONLINE"), which gets to be a
pain after you've done it once or twice.
--
Kevin


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Volker Bandke
2003-09-06 08:10:47 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

You don't need a 3270. But you need a console. Take a look at the
Tur(n)key system, where device 009 is a non-3270 console to MVS.

I don't know how to automate IEA011A from the MVS side. from the
host system side (Linux or Cygwin) you might want to take a look at
"expect", a program that allows scripting to applications






--
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

It was always thus; and even if 'twere not, 'twould inevitably
have been always thus. - Dean Lattimer

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


- -----Original Message-----
From: A. Philip Dickinson [mailto:phil-+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 3:33 AM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] Automating an IPL


Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply
to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.

This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.

The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console
(assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?

A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a
3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.

I shall investigate.

Phil.


- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
- ---------------------~-->
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Lexmark
Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
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http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/W4wwlB/TM
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------~
- ->
Binyamin Dissen
2003-09-06 18:20:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 11:33:16 +1000 "A. Philip Dickinson"
<phil-+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

:>I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
:>the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.

:>This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.

:>The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console (assuming
:>it is a 3270). Can this be automated?

In later operating systems, in the LOAD parameter.

In earlier ones, I believe there was a NOPROMPT option in IEASYS** (but it has
been a while).

:>A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
:>MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
:>1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.

Yes, but not easy.

--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen-***@public.gmane.org>
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Director, Dissen Software, Bar & Grill - Israel

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John Summerfield
2003-09-07 02:09:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
The other chsllenge would be setting up the MVS master console (assuming
it is a 3270). Can this be automated?
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.
You can probably do that, but a 3215 is more convenient.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Copyright John Summerfield. Reproduction prohibited.


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John Summerfield
2003-09-07 02:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
Hi,
I was wondering if anyone has worked out how to automatically reply to
the MVS "IEA101A SPECIFY SYSTEM PARAMETERS.." message.
This seems to be the main hurdle to achieving a fully automated IPL.
On Linux, you can use s3270, the s standing for "scripting."

The 3215 I mentioned in my other reply should work well too: you can
probably do it on a 3215 using expect. Especially of someone's sorted
out the Hercules implementation of the telnet protocol.

Perl also will work, and you can work round any brokenness in Hercules'
telnet.
--
Cheers
John.

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peter_flass
2003-09-08 12:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Philip Dickinson
A final thought.... Is it possible to run an MVS system without a 3270
MVS console? I have vague recollections of a config that involved a
1403 for the log and a card reader for entering commands.
AFAIR it was called a "composite console". I can't recall any other
details or whteher it was supported by MVS...


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cube1us
2003-09-06 01:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm -- enter the card reader control unit, unit address and type
where? (and what format is the type).

Is this in memory (as I suspect), or on the console. If in memory,
how do I find the right place?

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Hi Jay
Post by cube1us
If I hit "ext", I get a 0I01A -- which would be expected.
1 Ready the unit (tape or card)
2 Dail the load addr on the system control panel.
3 Press LOAD
4a IPL program is loaded
4b Supervisoer is loaded
4c Program loader is loaded
5 The unit addr dailed in step 2 is stored in the device table
for SYSRDR and SYSIPT (CARD) or SYSRES (TAPE)
6 System goes in wait state
7 If tape was used to IPL and you want a CARD reader for job control
press STOP
enter CARD reader control unit, unit addr, dev type.
Press START
8 press INTERRUPT to resume opeartion.
Regards Henk
ps any idea when the tape images will be uploaded ?
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snhstq
2003-09-06 06:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by cube1us
Hmmm -- enter the card reader control unit, unit address and type
where? (and what format is the type).
Is this in memory (as I suspect), or on the console. If in memory,
how do I find the right place?
Hi Jay

Sorry for the incomplete info, I was in a hurry while
typing it in.

Here is what the manaul says:

""If job-control cards are to be read
from a card reader that has not been
assigned or is different from that
set up for IPL (step 2), press STOP
enter the assignment for SYSRDR, and
press START. Other wise, omit this step.

Enter channel, unit, and device type in
bytes 0, 1, and 2

a. Byte 0 - channel numer
Multiplexor: Hex 00
Selector ch 1: Hex 01
Selector ch 2: Hex 02

b. Byte 1 - unit number
Device number: Hex 00 - FE

c. Byte 2 - Device type
1442 reader: Hex 04
2540 reader: Hex 08
2501 reader: Hex 14
2510 reader: Hex 16
""

What the manual means with 'enter' and 'bytes 0,1,2'
is not clear.
I think dailing it into the console switches, the same ones used for
the IPL address.

Regards Henk

p.s. may I also have access to the tape image?



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cube1us
2003-09-06 13:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Actually, I suspect it means into memory. That is what I am going to
try, anyway. That is where DOS would expect this kind of thing --
byte 4 is usually a response code (i.e. 1 for retry, 2 for ignore, 3
for cancel).

Jay Maynard was working on the tape images last nite.
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
Hmmm -- enter the card reader control unit, unit address and type
where? (and what format is the type).
Is this in memory (as I suspect), or on the console. If in
memory,
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
how do I find the right place?
Hi Jay
Sorry for the incomplete info, I was in a hurry while
typing it in.
""If job-control cards are to be read
from a card reader that has not been
assigned or is different from that
set up for IPL (step 2), press STOP
enter the assignment for SYSRDR, and
press START. Other wise, omit this step.
Enter channel, unit, and device type in
bytes 0, 1, and 2
a. Byte 0 - channel numer
Multiplexor: Hex 00
Selector ch 1: Hex 01
Selector ch 2: Hex 02
b. Byte 1 - unit number
Device number: Hex 00 - FE
c. Byte 2 - Device type
1442 reader: Hex 04
2540 reader: Hex 08
2501 reader: Hex 14
2510 reader: Hex 16
""
What the manual means with 'enter' and 'bytes 0,1,2'
is not clear.
I think dailing it into the console switches, the same ones used for
the IPL address.
Regards Henk
p.s. may I also have access to the tape image?
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cube1us
2003-09-06 13:41:46 UTC
Permalink
Entering 000C0400 in the word at location 0 produces the same
results -- a bunch of read backwards terminating in a no record found
and a disabled wait.

Given the extremely close relationship between TOS and DOS (most of
the programmer manuals are one in the same), I suspect that just
readying the card reader is just as good as going thru this process.

Jay Jaeger
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
Hmmm -- enter the card reader control unit, unit address and type
where? (and what format is the type).
Is this in memory (as I suspect), or on the console. If in
memory,
Post by snhstq
Post by cube1us
how do I find the right place?
Hi Jay
Sorry for the incomplete info, I was in a hurry while
typing it in.
""If job-control cards are to be read
from a card reader that has not been
assigned or is different from that
set up for IPL (step 2), press STOP
enter the assignment for SYSRDR, and
press START. Other wise, omit this step.
Enter channel, unit, and device type in
bytes 0, 1, and 2
a. Byte 0 - channel numer
Multiplexor: Hex 00
Selector ch 1: Hex 01
Selector ch 2: Hex 02
b. Byte 1 - unit number
Device number: Hex 00 - FE
c. Byte 2 - Device type
1442 reader: Hex 04
2540 reader: Hex 08
2501 reader: Hex 14
2510 reader: Hex 16
""
What the manual means with 'enter' and 'bytes 0,1,2'
is not clear.
I think dailing it into the console switches, the same ones used for
the IPL address.
Regards Henk
p.s. may I also have access to the tape image?
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