[hercules-390] Looking for a real 3270 terminal

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi all,

So, my talk about Hercules/MVS seems to occur more often with n>1 :-)

And I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice when during a demo I can show a real 3270 terminal connecting to Hercules?

I browsed the usual suspects (Ebay etc) but was unable to find one.

Any of you have an idea how I could my hands on a real terminal?

Maybe logistics can become a challenge because I am located in the Netherlands, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

['Bill Turner, WB4ALM' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Real IBM 3270 terminals are connected to an IBM 3270 control unit which
is in turn connected to the CPU via either a cable for local controls,
or via a modem for remote terminals.  Suggest you look up the 3270
series equipment in the IBM manual, but I do not remember the manual
numbers.  Maybe somebody else on the forum has the right number (or URL)
at their fingertips.

Personally I do not think it is practical. the terminals are large and
heavy as are the control units.  The company that I worked for, replaced
most of the actual IBM 3270 terminals with memorix terminals which were
powered internally by motorola 6800 microprocessor chips.  This made the
terminals considerably lighter in weight and physical size (and much
easier to place on workstation desks).   Later on, even those were
replaced with "normal" IBM compatible PC's running emulator programs.

/s/ Bill Turner, wb4alm

Post by ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
Hi all,
So, my talk about Hercules/MVS seems to occur more often with n>1 :-)
And I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice when during a demo I can show
a real 3270 terminal connecting to Hercules?
I browsed the usual suspects (Ebay etc) but was unable to find one.
Any of you have an idea how I could my hands on a real terminal?
Maybe logistics can become a challenge because I am located in the
Netherlands, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Bill,

The later 3174 controllers support ethernet (and token ring) and will connect to Hercules via TN3270, but the controllers still tend to be big.

This old page via the wayback machine has a good summary of models




http://web.archive.org/web/20080820002806/http://www.lordsnet.com/UsedIBM3174Summ.htm



I have some Nokia branded terminals which are very light.



Dave



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 31 December 2017 11:45
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Looking for a real 3270 terminal








Real IBM 3270 terminals are connected to an IBM 3270 control unit which is in turn connected to the CPU via either a cable for local controls, or via a modem for remote terminals. Suggest you look up the 3270 series equipment in the IBM manual, but I do not remember the manual numbers. Maybe somebody else on the forum has the right number (or URL) at their fingertips.

Personally I do not think it is practical. the terminals are large and heavy as are the control units. The company that I worked for, replaced most of the actual IBM 3270 terminals with memorix terminals which were powered internally by motorola 6800 microprocessor chips. This made the terminals considerably lighter in weight and physical size (and much easier to place on workstation desks). Later on, even those were replaced with "normal" IBM compatible PC's running emulator programs.

/s/ Bill Turner, wb4alm


On 12/31/2017 04:58 AM, ***@i2rs.nl <mailto:***@i2rs.nl> [hercules-390] wrote:



Hi all,

So, my talk about Hercules/MVS seems to occur more often with n>1 :-)

And I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice when during a demo I can show a real 3270 terminal connecting to Hercules?

I browsed the usual suspects (Ebay etc) but was unable to find one.

Any of you have an idea how I could my hands on a real terminal?

Maybe logistics can become a challenge because I am located in the Netherlands, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Bill Turner, WB4ALM' ***@arrl.net [hercules-390]
Real IBM 3270 terminals are connected to an IBM 3270 control unit which
is in turn connected to the CPU via either a cable for local controls,
or via a modem for remote terminals.  Suggest you look up the 3270
series equipment in the IBM manual, but I do not remember the manual
numbers.  Maybe somebody else on the forum has the right number (or URL)
at their fingertips.
Personally I do not think it is practical. the terminals are large and
heavy as are the control units.  The company that I worked for, replaced
most of the actual IBM 3270 terminals with memorix terminals which were
powered internally by motorola 6800 microprocessor chips.  This made the
terminals considerably lighter in weight and physical size (and much
easier to place on workstation desks).   Later on, even those were
replaced with "normal" IBM compatible PC's running emulator programs.

Heh, "normal" PCs. ;) They've always been pretty damn weird to me,
looking at them from the nice civilized world of UNIX workstations.

Anyway, I disagree with the assertion that it's not practical. Some
people have space limitations, and some don't, but it takes a pretty
severe space limitation to make one small monitor/keyboard and one small
control box too much to handle. The controllers that are TCP/IP and
Ethernet-capable are about the size of a desktop PC chassis, and there
are much later 3270-protocol terminals that are small and light. The
IBM 3192 comes to mind.

-Dave

[Jeremy Nicoll [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Anyway, I disagree with the assertion that it's not practical. Some
people have space limitations, and some don't, but it takes a pretty
severe space limitation to make one small monitor/keyboard and one small
control box too much to handle. The controllers that are TCP/IP and
Ethernet-capable are about the size of a desktop PC chassis, and there
are much later 3270-protocol terminals that are small and light. The
IBM 3192 comes to mind.

Is doing that much different conceptually from running a 3270
emulator in a spare pc, and connecting an oldstyle mainframe-
terminal keyboard to it?

That's assuming that the oldstyle keyboards advertised at eg
http://www.twindata.com/affirmative/1229T.htm
really can be set up with a terminal emulator so that every
physical key is properly recognised.

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Jeremy Nicoll ***@letterboxes.org [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Anyway, I disagree with the assertion that it's not practical. Some
people have space limitations, and some don't, but it takes a pretty
severe space limitation to make one small monitor/keyboard and one small
control box too much to handle. The controllers that are TCP/IP and
Ethernet-capable are about the size of a desktop PC chassis, and there
are much later 3270-protocol terminals that are small and light. The
IBM 3192 comes to mind.

Is doing that much different conceptually from running a 3270
emulator in a spare pc, and connecting an oldstyle mainframe-
terminal keyboard to it?
That's assuming that the oldstyle keyboards advertised at eg
http://www.twindata.com/affirmative/1229T.htm
really can be set up with a terminal emulator so that every
physical key is properly recognised.

Guess it depends on your definition of "much" ;)

(Not that I would know *personally* / currently. Last time I used
*real* hardware was ~1978 :/)

Mike

Post by Jeremy Nicoll ***@letterboxes.org [hercules-390]
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 01 January 2018 11:11
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Looking for a real 3270 terminal

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Anyway, I disagree with the assertion that it's not practical. Some
people have space limitations, and some don't, but it takes a pretty
severe space limitation to make one small monitor/keyboard and one
small control box too much to handle. The controllers that are TCP/IP
and Ethernet-capable are about the size of a desktop PC chassis, and
there are much later 3270-protocol terminals that are small and light.
The IBM 3192 comes to mind.

Is doing that much different conceptually from running a 3270 emulator in a
spare pc, and connecting an oldstyle mainframe- terminal keyboard to it?
That's assuming that the oldstyle keyboards advertised at eg
http://www.twindata.com/affirmative/1229T.htm
really can be set up with a terminal emulator so that every physical key is
properly recognised.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Having done both the feel of a real 3270 terminal is different. There is no visible OS in a 3174. Even on a thin client, which I think is the closest you still get the menus along the top.

Dave

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Jeremy Nicoll [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Having done both the feel of a real 3270 terminal is different. There is
no visible OS in a 3174. Even on a thin client, which I think is the
closest you still get the menus along the top.

Do amy of the emulators run full-screen? ( think I've only ever run
one in a window).

Are there any open-source emulators? Surely turning off the menu
display would fix that...

I'd have thought that having an old-style clunky/clicky keyboard with
proper keys and all of them present would help a lot.

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Yes, C3270 (part of the package containing X3270). C3270 is a “curses” implementation which means that if you run it directly on the console of a Linux PC, you would get full screen. You may have to fiddle with the keymap file to get everything mapped correctly. I have not specifically tried this so I cannot positively state that it would work but it should. I think it’ll mostly depend upon if the terminfo for the console is correct.

So, taking PC, pulling Linux on it with an appropriate keyboard and running C3270 could at least in theory replicate a 3270PC.

TTFN - Guy

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Having done both the feel of a real 3270 terminal is different. There is
no visible OS in a 3174. Even on a thin client, which I think is the
closest you still get the menus along the top.

Do amy of the emulators run full-screen? ( think I've only ever run
one in a window).
Are there any open-source emulators? Surely turning off the menu
display would fix that...
I'd have thought that having an old-style clunky/clicky keyboard with
proper keys and all of them present would help a lot.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Jeremy Nicoll ***@letterboxes.org [hercules-390]

Anyway, I disagree with the assertion that it's not practical. Some
people have space limitations, and some don't, but it takes a pretty
severe space limitation to make one small monitor/keyboard and one small
control box too much to handle. The controllers that are TCP/IP and
Ethernet-capable are about the size of a desktop PC chassis, and there
are much later 3270-protocol terminals that are small and light. The
IBM 3192 comes to mind.

Is doing that much different conceptually from running a 3270
emulator in a spare pc, and connecting an oldstyle mainframe-
terminal keyboard to it?

Conceptually? No, otherwise the emulator wouldn't be a very good
emulator. But it's not a real IBM terminal.

Terminal emulators are like blow-up dolls. They can solve a problem,
but they're nothing like the real thing.

Post by Jeremy Nicoll ***@letterboxes.org [hercules-390]
That's assuming that the oldstyle keyboards advertised at eg
http://www.twindata.com/affirmative/1229T.htm
really can be set up with a terminal emulator so that every
physical key is properly recognised.

On a modern system there should be no issues mapping those keys.
("old style"?)

-Dave

[Jeremy Nicoll [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Jeremy Nicoll ***@letterboxes.org [hercules-390]
That's assuming that the oldstyle keyboards advertised at eg
http://www.twindata.com/affirmative/1229T.htm
really can be set up with a terminal emulator so that every
physical key is properly recognised.

On a modern system there should be no issues mapping those keys.
("old style"?)

Old style: mainly I meant having the bank of ten keys to the left of
the QWERTY part, but also great big chunky sculpted keys, not the
nasty flat things on my laptop.

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

If you can scrounge up an Apple ][ with a Token Ring card, it will work as
an operators console with the ethernet going to a router or hercules on a
PC.

Post by ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
Hi all,
So, my talk about Hercules/MVS seems to occur more often with n>1 :-)
And I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice when during a demo I can show a
real 3270 terminal connecting to Hercules?
I browsed the usual suspects (Ebay etc) but was unable to find one.
Any of you have an idea how I could my hands on a real terminal?
Maybe logistics can become a challenge because I am located in the
Netherlands, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you can scrounge up an Apple ][ with a Token Ring card, it will work
as an operators console with the ethernet going to a router or hercules
on a PC.

Uhh...Was there ever a token ring card for the Apple ][?? I'd be very
surprised to hear that. Are you sure you don't mean the Macintosh II?

-Dave

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you can scrounge up an Apple ][ with a Token Ring card, it will work
as an operators console with the ethernet going to a router or hercules
on a PC.

Uhh...Was there ever a token ring card for the Apple ][?? I'd be very
surprised to hear that. Are you sure you don't mean the Macintosh II?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Jeroen Baten [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi all,

Just a small update ib this.

A very nice guy in the Netherlands (where I live) gave  me a stack of
hardware to make this all possible.

And yes, it means going from BNC via a 3274 unit to TR to a TR hub to a
Cisco for TR-ETH routing to my PC or raspberry pi.

It looks like in the attachments.

I cleaned up the keyboard and got me some nice blue Ethernet cables to
make it a sort of mobile demonstration setup.

I'm still in the process of fiddling with it though.

So, thanks for all the replies and sorry for the long delay.

Kind regards,

Jeroen Baten

Post by ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
 
Hi all,
So, my talk about Hercules/MVS seems to occur more often with n>1 :-)
And I was thinking, wouldn't it be nice when during a demo I can show
a real 3270 terminal connecting to Hercules?
I browsed the usual suspects (Ebay etc) but was unable to find one.
Any of you have an idea how I could my hands on a real terminal?
Maybe logistics can become a challenge because I am located in the
Netherlands, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Jeroen Baten ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
Just a small update ib this.
A very nice guy in the Netherlands (where I live) gave  me a stack of
hardware to make this all possible.
And yes, it means going from BNC via a 3274 unit to TR to a TR hub to a
Cisco for TR-ETH routing to my PC or raspberry pi.
It looks like in the attachments.
I cleaned up the keyboard and got me some nice blue Ethernet cables to
make it a sort of mobile demonstration setup.
I'm still in the process of fiddling with it though.

That sounds like a reasonable configuration. The pics didn't make it
through; I'd love to see them if you can post them somewhere.

What model of 3274 are you using?

-Dave

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Jeroen Baten ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
Just a small update ib this.
A very nice guy in the Netherlands (where I live) gave me a stack of
hardware to make this all possible.
And yes, it means going from BNC via a 3274 unit to TR to a TR hub to a
Cisco for TR-ETH routing to my PC or raspberry pi.
It looks like in the attachments.
I cleaned up the keyboard and got me some nice blue Ethernet cables to
make it a sort of mobile demonstration setup.
I'm still in the process of fiddling with it though.

That sounds like a reasonable configuration. The pics didn't make it
through; I'd love to see them if you can post them somewhere.
What model of 3274 are you using?

I didn’t realize that the 3274 was capable of TCP/IP. I thought it would only do SNA
over TR. I’ve been using 3174s (and -6x or -x1 models) for precisely this reason.

TTFN - Guy

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Jeroen Baten ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
A very nice guy in the Netherlands (where I live) gave  me a stack of
hardware to make this all possible.
 
And yes, it means going from BNC via a 3274 unit to TR to a TR hub to a
Cisco for TR-ETH routing to my PC or raspberry pi.
 
It looks like in the attachments.
 
I cleaned up the keyboard and got me some nice blue Ethernet cables to
make it a sort of mobile demonstration setup.
 
I'm still in the process of fiddling with it though.

That sounds like a reasonable configuration. The pics didn't make it
through; I'd love to see them if you can post them somewhere.
What model of 3274 are you using?

I didn’t realize that the 3274 was capable of TCP/IP.  I thought it
would only do SNA
over TR.  I’ve been using 3174s (and -6x or -x1 models) for precisely
this reason.

Yes, hence my question. ;)

-Dave

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 15 April 2018 20:54
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Looking for a real 3270 terminal

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]

Post by Jeroen Baten ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
A very nice guy in the Netherlands (where I live) gave me a stack
of hardware to make this all possible.
And yes, it means going from BNC via a 3274 unit to TR to a TR hub
to a Cisco for TR-ETH routing to my PC or raspberry pi.
It looks like in the attachments.
I cleaned up the keyboard and got me some nice blue Ethernet cables
to make it a sort of mobile demonstration setup.
I'm still in the process of fiddling with it though.

That sounds like a reasonable configuration. The pics didn't make it
through; I'd love to see them if you can post them somewhere.
What model of 3274 are you using?

I didn’t realize that the 3274 was capable of TCP/IP. I thought it
would only do SNA over TR. I’ve been using 3174s (and -6x or -x1
models) for precisely this reason.

Yes, hence my question. ;)

I suspect it was a typo....

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA