[hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above)?

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?






Thanks in advance!

[Vince Coen [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

If you have the money, sure.

It is a lot !

There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

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[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

For all of IBM's deep internal desire for more people to get
interested in mainframes and mainframe OSs, this is probably the first
barrier that they should look to address.

-Dave

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
 
If you have the money, sure.
It is a lot !
There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

--
- IMPORTANT –
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['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Dave,

I don't believe IBM has any desire to get more people interested in Z, or at least zOS or zVM, or at least not people who are "amateurs and enthusiasts"
I believe that they want to keep it as a niche product for which they can charge a huge premium, and so want to limit access to those consultants who charge more than $2,000/day
I guess that the $4.920.00/year I see here is designed to ensure that occurs...

https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z-systems-development-test-environment

... mind if I was a Z developer that would see that as peanuts....

Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 22 March 2018 17:12
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1
or above)?
For all of IBM's deep internal desire for more people to get interested in
mainframes and mainframe OSs, this is probably the first barrier that they
should look to address.
-Dave

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you have the money, sure.
It is a lot !
There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

--
- IMPORTANT –
This email and the information in it may be confidential, legally
privileged and/or protected by law.
It is intended solely for the use of the person to whom it is addressed..
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use
it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.
Please also delete all copies of this email & any attachments from your system.
If this is an encrypted email it is your responsibility to maintain
the 1024 byte key system even for one-use keys. Once mail has been
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We cannot guarantee the security or confidentiality of non encrypted
email communications.
We do not accept any liability for losses or damages that you may
suffer as a result of your receipt of this email including but not
limited to computer service or system failure, access delays or
interruption, data non-delivery or mis-delivery, computer viruses or
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Copyright in this email and any attachments belongs to Applewood

Computers.

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Should you communicate with anyone at Applewood Computers by email,
you consent to us monitoring and reading any such correspondence.
Nothing in this email shall be taken or read as suggesting, proposing
or relating to any agreement concerted practice or other practice that
could infringe UK or EC competition legislation (unless it is against
Security requirements).
This Email and its attachments (if any) are scanned for virii using
Clamd and ClamAV 0.99.2 or later (Linux x64).
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England (no. 01681349) whose registered office is at Applewood House,
17 Stag Green Avenue, Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL9 5EB, UK.

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave,
I don't believe IBM has any desire to get more people interested in Z, or at least zOS or zVM, or at least not people who are "amateurs and enthusiasts"
I believe that they want to keep it as a niche product for which they can charge a huge premium, and so want to limit access to those consultants who charge more than $2,000/day
I guess that the $4.920.00/year I see here is designed to ensure that occurs...
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z-systems-development-test-environment
... mind if I was a Z developer that would see that as peanuts....
Dave

Ah ah..

This should probably go into the hercules-advocacy ;)

--Ivan





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Ivan Warren wrote:

[...]

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
This should probably go into the hercules-advocacy ;)

Which is currently impossible as Jay no longer administers it (moderates it). I've tried contacting him in the past about this to relinquish his administration of it over to someone else, but he never responds. I've tried several times over the years, each time to no avail.

hercules-advocacy is, IMHO, a dead group.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

You're right, and i think that is only for development but you can't implement or learn about new features of TWS, System Automation...

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi Dave. Actually I have it on very good authority that many within
IBM's management structure are keenly interested in getting more people
interested in z. Some are quite confused about it, wondering "why more
people aren't interested". This is straight from a some new internal
blood at IBM. He is regularly approached about this issue.

It seems that secrecy and "they will come to us" attitude is so deeply
ingrained in their culture that they just can't seem to wrap their
brains around the concept of openness.

Either way, though, as Ivan said this is at least somewhat off-topic
for this list. Not completely, however, IMO.

-Dave

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I don't believe IBM has any desire to get more people interested in Z,
or at least zOS or zVM, or at least not people who are "amateurs and
enthusiasts"
I believe that they want to keep it as a niche product for which they
can charge a huge premium, and so want to limit access to those
consultants who charge more than $2,000/day
I guess that the $4.920.00/year I see here is designed to ensure that occurs...
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z-systems-development-test-environment
... mind if I was a Z developer that would see that as peanuts....
Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 22 March 2018 17:12
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1
or above)?
For all of IBM's deep internal desire for more people to get interested in
mainframes and mainframe OSs, this is probably the first barrier that they
should look to address.
-Dave

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you have the money, sure.
It is a lot !
There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

--
- IMPORTANT –
This email and the information in it may be confidential, legally
privileged and/or protected by law.
It is intended solely for the use of the person to whom it is addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use
it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.
Please also delete all copies of this email & any attachments from your system.
If this is an encrypted email it is your responsibility to maintain
the 1024 byte key system even for one-use keys. Once mail has been
sent the sending key is not kept and therefore a replacement mail
cannot be resent.
We cannot guarantee the security or confidentiality of non encrypted
email communications.
We do not accept any liability for losses or damages that you may
suffer as a result of your receipt of this email including but not
limited to computer service or system failure, access delays or
interruption, data non-delivery or mis-delivery, computer viruses or
other harmful components.
Copyright in this email and any attachments belongs to Applewood

Computers.

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Should you communicate with anyone at Applewood Computers by email,
you consent to us monitoring and reading any such correspondence.
Nothing in this email shall be taken or read as suggesting, proposing
or relating to any agreement concerted practice or other practice that
could infringe UK or EC competition legislation (unless it is against
Security requirements).
This Email and its attachments (if any) are scanned for virii using
Clamd and ClamAV 0.99.2 or later (Linux x64).
Dykegrove Limited T/A Applewood Computers is a company registered in
England (no. 01681349) whose registered office is at Applewood House,
17 Stag Green Avenue, Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL9 5EB, UK.

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

IBM is controlled by it's financial organization. While there are many in IBM and outside of IBM who are concerned about the future of the mainframe, the finance people can only see as far as the end of the current financial quarter. I cannot say if it has always been this way - there are many on here whose IBM career started much sooner in their life than mine did (1995 after many years as a customer at Boeing). UNIX usage in universities exploded because it was available for free. Yet, IBM rarely gave universities a price break on mainframes and software. I have heard stories that in the early days of VM, universities were essentially development partners. I have never heard of any such case with MVT, MVS, or any of the newer operating systems. When LINUX came along, it appears IBM only saw this as another revenue stream - while the techies saw this as a threat to MVS futures, the finance group did not seem to notice anything in their quarter so everything was fine. I saw several executives talk about getting mainframe hardware and software back in universities but I never saw any new relationships with universities. When my son earned his BS in Computer Science (went into the family business so to speak - my Dad was a programmer), I don't believe he ever saw a mainframe other on Take Your Kid to Work Day nor did he ever have any classes about the mainframe.

In my view, mainframe software is on hospice - no measures will be taken to save it but it will be kept comfortable and ever penny will be milked out of it. I have no view of the hardware future.

This rambled on longer than I intended but I will close with my belief that zPDT (or whatever it is called this week) will never become affordable for amateurs as long as IBM owns it.

Jim

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
IBM is controlled by it's financial organization. While there are many
in IBM and outside of IBM who are concerned about the future of the
mainframe, the finance people can only see as far as the end of the
current financial quarter. I cannot say if it has always been this way -
there are many on here whose IBM career started much sooner in their
life than mine did (1995 after many years as a customer at Boeing). UNIX
usage in universities exploded because it was available for free. Yet,
IBM rarely gave universities a price break on mainframes and software. I
have heard stories that in the early days of VM, universities were
essentially development partners. I have never heard of any such case
with MVT, MVS, or any of the newer operating systems. When LINUX came
along, it appears IBM only saw this as another revenue stream - while
the techies saw this as a threat to MVS futures, the finance group did
not seem to notice anything in their quarter so everything was fine. I
saw several executives talk about getting mainframe hardware and
software back in universities but I never saw any new relationships with
universities. When my son earned his BS in Computer Science (went into
the family business so to speak - my Dad was a programmer), I don't
believe he ever saw a mainframe other on Take Your Kid to Work Day nor
did he ever have any classes about the mainframe.

Well yeah, most suits can't see past the end of the quarter.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
In my view, mainframe software is on hospice - no measures will be taken
to save it but it will be kept comfortable and ever penny will be milked
out of it. I have no view of the hardware future.

ROFL! Yeah, I've been hearing this since I was in high school. I
turned 49 yesterday. ;)

-Dave

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Well, IBM gave a company their chip manufacturing plant for z and
other systems and $1.5B dollars to run it for 10 years in 2014.
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/192430-ibm-dumps-chip-unit-pays-globalfoundries-1-5-billion-to-take-the-business-off-its-hands

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
IBM is controlled by it's financial organization. While there are many
in IBM and outside of IBM who are concerned about the future of the
mainframe, the finance people can only see as far as the end of the
current financial quarter. I cannot say if it has always been this way -
there are many on here whose IBM career started much sooner in their
life than mine did (1995 after many years as a customer at Boeing). UNIX
usage in universities exploded because it was available for free. Yet,
IBM rarely gave universities a price break on mainframes and software. I
have heard stories that in the early days of VM, universities were
essentially development partners. I have never heard of any such case
with MVT, MVS, or any of the newer operating systems. When LINUX came
along, it appears IBM only saw this as another revenue stream - while
the techies saw this as a threat to MVS futures, the finance group did
not seem to notice anything in their quarter so everything was fine. I
saw several executives talk about getting mainframe hardware and
software back in universities but I never saw any new relationships with
universities. When my son earned his BS in Computer Science (went into
the family business so to speak - my Dad was a programmer), I don't
believe he ever saw a mainframe other on Take Your Kid to Work Day nor
did he ever have any classes about the mainframe.

Well yeah, most suits can't see past the end of the quarter.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
In my view, mainframe software is on hospice - no measures will be taken
to save it but it will be kept comfortable and ever penny will be milked
out of it. I have no view of the hardware future.

ROFL! Yeah, I've been hearing this since I was in high school. I
turned 49 yesterday. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

['Tim Stark' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Folks,



Yeah. When I was college student in 1980s, I had seen many universities that had big IBM mainframes running VM systems with BITNET networks. DEC systems and UNIX systems are more popular at universities. DEC os and UNIX os are now available for hobbyists, etc. DEC and UNIX provides X windows or graphics but IBM does not. Today I had seen that many users mentioned about MVS and z/OS systems but not VM systems. Hmmm.



Only problems are VM/370 r6 and MVS 3.8j do not have network interfaces for TCP/IP and RSCS networks. Network accesses require IUCV interface to be implemented.



I was MVS user and FORTRAN programmer during my internship.



Tim



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 4:39 PM
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above)?





IBM is controlled by it's financial organization. While there are many in IBM and outside of IBM who are concerned about the future of the mainframe, the finance people can only see as far as the end of the current financial quarter. I cannot say if it has always been this way - there are many on here whose IBM career started much sooner in their life than mine did (1995 after many years as a customer at Boeing). UNIX usage in universities exploded because it was available for free. Yet, IBM rarely gave universities a price break on mainframes and software. I have heard stories that in the early days of VM, universities were essentially development partners. I have never heard of any such case with MVT, MVS, or any of the newer operating systems. When LINUX came along, it appears IBM only saw this as another revenue stream - while the techies saw this as a threat to MVS futures, the finance group did not seem to notice anything in their quarter so everything was fine. I saw several executives talk about getting mainframe hardware and software back in universities but I never saw any new relationships with universities. When my son earned his BS in Computer Science (went into the family business so to speak - my Dad was a programmer), I don't believe he ever saw a mainframe other on Take Your Kid to Work Day nor did he ever have any classes about the mainframe.

In my view, mainframe software is on hospice - no measures will be taken to save it but it will be kept comfortable and ever penny will be milked out of it. I have no view of the hardware future.

This rambled on longer than I intended but I will close with my belief that zPDT (or whatever it is called this week) will never become affordable for amateurs as long as IBM owns it.

Jim

[R P Herrold [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Tim Stark' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
available for hobbyists, etc. DEC and UNIX provides X
windows or graphics but IBM does not. Today I had seen that
many users mentioned about MVS and z/OS systems but not VM
systems. Hmmm.

ummm -- wrong layer as these layers are for batch processes
and CLI interaction exceeding well and scalably (see in the
3270 window, where I IPL'd the unit, etc )--- one does the GUI
and X work down in the Linux instances

I snapped this screenshot a moment ago on ClefOS 7 running on
s390x on a z/14 <?> -- I forget

Loading Image...


Wolverines -- M Go Blue -- I'm off to go watch the basketball
game ;)

-- Russ herrold

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Tim Stark' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Only problems are VM/370 r6 and MVS 3.8j do
not have network interfaces for TCP/IP and
RSCS networks. Network accesses require
IUCV interface to be implemented.

TK4- has a modified Hercules which provides
TCP/IP under MVS. Hercules/380 started doing
the same yesterday, but it's still in beta.

BFN. Paul.

[Velvet Jones [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Literal secrecy might be one reason IBM is keeping a tight grip on access to z/OS. As most people are a aware of, there have been several high level hacks/intrusions at major corporations over the past few years. As far as I know, no one has been able to penetrate a z/OS system. It's hard to attack something you know nothing about. Some of this is certainly due to the level of auditing and access controls that tends to go on at big z shops, but I do think the OS itself plays big part. Still, I would love to see IBM do with z/OS what Unisys did with OS2200 and release a full featured(but throttled) emulator for learning purposes only. 


On Thursday, March 22, 2018, 3:24:03 PM EDT, Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi Dave. Actually I have it on very good authority that many within
IBM's management structure are keenly interested in getting more people
interested in z. Some are quite confused about it, wondering "why more
people aren't interested". This is straight from a some new internal
blood at IBM. He is regularly approached about this issue.

It seems that secrecy and "they will come to us" attitude is so deeply
ingrained in their culture that they just can't seem to wrap their
brains around the concept of openness.

Either way, though, as Ivan said this is at least somewhat off-topic
for this list. Not completely, however, IMO.

-Dave

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I don't believe IBM has any desire to get more people interested in Z,
or at least zOS or zVM, or at least not people who are "amateurs and
enthusiasts"
I believe that they want to keep it as a niche product for which they
can charge a huge premium, and so want to limit access to those
consultants who charge more than $2,000/day
I guess that the $4.920.00/year I see here is designed to ensure that occurs...
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z-systems-development-test-environment
... mind if I was a Z developer that would see that as peanuts....
Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 22 March 2018 17:12
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2..1
or above)?
For all of IBM's deep internal desire for more people to get interested in
mainframes and mainframe OSs, this is probably the first barrier that they
should look to address.
-Dave

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you have the money, sure.
It is a lot !
There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

--
- IMPORTANT –
This email and the information in it may be confidential, legally
privileged and/or protected by law.
It is intended solely for the use of the person to whom it is addressed.
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use
it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.
Please also delete all copies of this email & any attachments from your system.
If this is an encrypted email it is your responsibility to maintain
the 1024 byte key system even for one-use keys. Once mail has been
sent the sending key is not kept and therefore a replacement mail
cannot be resent.
We cannot guarantee the security or confidentiality of non encrypted
email communications.
We do not accept any liability for losses or damages that you may
suffer as a result of your receipt of this email including but not
limited to computer service or system failure, access delays or
interruption, data non-delivery or mis-delivery, computer viruses or
other harmful components.
Copyright in this email and any attachments belongs to Applewood

Computers.

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Should you communicate with anyone at Applewood Computers by email,
you consent to us monitoring and reading any such correspondence.
Nothing in this email shall be taken or read as suggesting, proposing
or relating to any agreement concerted practice or other practice that
could infringe UK or EC competition legislation (unless it is against
Security requirements).
This Email and its attachments (if any) are scanned for virii using
Clamd and ClamAV 0.99.2 or later (Linux x64).
Dykegrove Limited T/A Applewood Computers is a company registered in
England (no. 01681349) whose registered office is at Applewood House,
17 Stag Green Avenue, Hatfield, Hertfordshire, AL9 5EB, UK.

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Velvet Jones ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Literal secrecy might be one reason IBM is keeping a tight grip on
access to z/OS. As most people are a aware of, there have been several
high level hacks/intrusions at major corporations over the past few
years. As far as I know, no one has been able to penetrate a z/OS
system. It's hard to attack something you know nothing about. Some of
this is certainly due to the level of auditing and access controls that
tends to go on at big z shops, but I do think the OS itself plays big
part. Still, I would love to see IBM do with z/OS what Unisys did with
OS2200 and release a full featured(but throttled) emulator for learning
purposes only. 

Yep, that may be definitely a good reason in our time, but
is a problem rised probably in the last ten years.

The IBM policy about zPDT, z/OS and z/VM last from when?

Undoubtly selling zPDT+ADCD to a wider audience would allow
a "leak" on the Net, a leak that probably IBM may not control,
if even IBM is able to control such a leak as the state of the art.

From the other side, with appropriate restrictions, IBM would
gain a bulk of "free developers" working "around" its systems.

For example hobby "networks" and "shops" of emulated z/OS, z/VM would born
around the Net, creating, over time, a larger mass, a mass that may
eventually become "critical" in the long run, specially in educational
organizations, like Universities and Research facilities.

Emulators like hercules and zPDT gain every day more and more perfomances
on home machines which are alredy powerful enough
to run an "hobbyst emulated mainframe" in one of their corners.

Well, I don't think these arguments will be enough to change the IBM mind
.... I guess is better I keep playing with MVS3.8j running under the
hercules emulator and with Gentoo/s390x under QEMU ;-) ... I doubt I'll
be able to play with zPDT+ADCD in my lifespan ... ;-(

My 2 cents, Peppe.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[R P Herrold [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Velvet Jones ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
itself plays big part. Still, I would love to see IBM do
with z/OS what Unisys did with OS2200 and release a full
featured(but throttled) emulator for learning purposes
only. 
Hi Dave. Actually I have it on very good authority that many within
IBM's management structure are keenly interested in getting more people
interested in z. Some are quite confused about it, wondering "why more
people aren't interested". This is straight from a some new internal
blood at IBM. He is regularly approached about this issue.

Folks,

You _are_ aware that there is a high degree of IBM technical
staff involvement in the 'Open Source' QEMU _s390x_ emulator
effort ?? It is a serious and global effort, with a
substantial quantity of resources behind it.

Thank you IBM, and if Dave G would be so kind as to forward

Post by Velvet Jones ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
from some new internal blood at IBM

I would be grateful, as we recently received a separate
preeliminary contact, through_another_ intermediary with whom
I and another who work in the advocacy trenches for Z are
involved had a similar contact within the last few weeks as
well, and I wondered why intermediaries were used at the time.

New Blood -- Pick up the phone ;) We need to set up talking
more directly


Back to the main thread. See:

http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/

Relevant posts are tagged with something like:

Subject: ... s390x/sclp ...

(it is something of a firehose)

I use this procmail rule to re-mark content so I see just that
part of that mailing list

...
#
##
# qemu devel s390x specific
:0fh
* ^List-Id:.*qemu-devel\.nongnu\.org
*!^X-brand
* ^Subject:.*s390x\/.*
| formail -i "Subject: qemu-d s390x]$MATCH" \
-A "X-brand: qemu-devel s390x "
:0fh
* ^List-Id:.*qemu-devel\.nongnu\.org
*!^X-brand
* ^Subject:.*s390x\/.*
| formail -i "Subject: qemu-d s390x]$MATCH" \
-A "X-brand: qemu-devel s390x "

# qemu devel (the rest)
:0fh
* ^List-Id:.*qemu-devel\.nongnu\.org
*!^X-brand
* ^Subject:.*\]\/.*
| formail -i "Subject: qemu-d]$MATCH" \
-A "X-deferred: qemu-devel " \
-A "X-brand: qemu-devel "
...

I have not side-by-side compared to herc-390 or zPDT, but
an accurate qemu emulator, commodity hardware in masse,
libvirt seems well worth considering. I saw code go in today
to better support the adjunct hardware crypto accellerator
unit

-- Russ herrold
614 488 6954 US EDT




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[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Folks,

Post by R P Herrold ***@owlriver.com [hercules-390]
You _are_ aware that there is a high degree of IBM technical
staff involvement in the 'Open Source' QEMU _s390x_ emulator
effort ?? It is a serious and global effort, with a
substantial quantity of resources behind it.

Been looking at the qemu tcg (tiny code generator - the JIT) s390x
effort... (on linux, I'm getting a 6x better performance with qemu-s390x
vs hercules)...

But unfortunately it's linux only guest

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Tim Stark' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Folks,
You _are_ aware that there is a high degree of IBM technical
staff involvement in the 'Open Source' QEMU _s390x_ emulator
effort ?? It is a serious and global effort, with a
substantial quantity of resources behind it.

IBM "had" to be involved for qemu-system-s390x, I was pretty sure it had,
from the quality and perfomances of the emulation I recently tested, even
if I do not follow the qemu developers mailing lists.

But this emulation is reserved to Linux distros only, isn't?

Peppe.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
IBM "had" to be involved for qemu-system-s390x, I was pretty sure it had,
from the quality and perfomances of the emulation I recently tested, even
if I do not follow the qemu developers mailing lists.

no need to wonder, it is enough to look at the qemu sources
quite a few sources have a
"Copyright year IBM Corp"
with years ranging from 2012 to 2016




e.

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.it [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
IBM "had" to be involved for qemu-system-s390x, I was pretty sure it had,
from the quality and perfomances of the emulation I recently tested, even
if I do not follow the qemu developers mailing lists.

no need to wonder, it is enough to look at the qemu sources
quite a few sources have a
"Copyright year IBM Corp"
with years ranging from 2012 to 2016

Well, I defintely prefer to "wonder", rather than
look to the sources ;-). Then, after have been "wondered" for a while,
as soon as I need an "hack", I start to lurk over the sources.

But I've to admit I prefer to read code, rather than
copyright comments, as I almost "blind" to comments in
source code ;-)

Peppe.

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Giuseppe Vitillaro wrote:

[...]

as I almost "blind" to comments in source code ;-)

ALL comments?

Or just copyright comments?

[Martin Truebner [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Fish,

... comments

I am fascinated sometimes by the difference between comment and real
code

i.e. (in HLASM in z/OS)
A LOAD with subsequent handling of failure but missing the ERRET operand

or in REXX

in a DO loop: a LEAVE with comments indicating that certain cases are
skipped

Martin

testing is for cowards.
backup shows lack of self confidence.

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Martin Truebner ***@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
Fish,

... comments

I am fascinated sometimes by the difference between comment and real
code

Yeah, that the reason I'm almost "blind" to
"most comments", at least reading C/C++/Java codes.

Though, I've to admit I'm still reading comments in Assembler/370
(IFOX00) sources ... but ... give me time ... ;-)

Comments are ignored by ANY true physical implementation
of a Universal Turing Machine ;-)

Peppe.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I am not sure if a program/product under GNU license can have within some fragments of code copyrighted by IBM.

https://git.qemu.org/?p=qemu.git;a=blob_plain;f=LICENSE

I am not an expert or lawyer, but judging by the efforts on my current project to be open source ( http://decidim.org = we_decide), I believe there is a copyright conflict.

Can be reused or modified this fragment of code by others than IBM?

Regards

Alex
Barcelona
Barcelona

[Robert Prins [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

License and copyright have nothing to do with each other. Most of my REXX
code is "(C) Copyright Robert AH Prins, from-to", but it's licensed under
the GPL V3 (or later)

Robert

Post by ***@yahoo.es [hercules-390]
I am not sure if a program/product under GNU license can have within some
fragments of code copyrighted by IBM.
https://git.qemu.org/?p=qemu.git;a=blob_plain;f=LICENSE
I am not an expert or lawyer, but judging by the efforts on my current
project to be open source ( http://decidim.org = we_decide), I believe
there is a copyright conflict.
Can be reused or modified this fragment of code by others than IBM?
Regards
Alex
Barcelona
Barcelona

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I would have thought the converse was true. Only the person who owns the Copyright can grant the initial licence.

If the code was public domain then you can’t add a more restrictive licence such as GNU.



Dave



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 25 March 2018 11:10
To: Hercules <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above)?








License and copyright have nothing to do with each other. Most of my REXX code is "(C) Copyright Robert AH Prins, from-to", but it's licensed under the GPL V3 (or later)

Robert



On 25 March 2018 at 09:52, ***@yahoo.es <mailto:***@yahoo.es> [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



I am not sure if a program/product under GNU license can have within some fragments of code copyrighted by IBM.

https://git.qemu.org/?p=qemu.git;a=blob_plain;f=LICENSE

I am not an expert or lawyer, but judging by the efforts on my current project to be open source ( http://decidim.org = we_decide), I believe there is a copyright conflict.

Can be reused or modified this fragment of code by others than IBM?

Regards

Alex
Barcelona
Barcelona

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If the code was public domain then you can’t
add a more restrictive licence such as GNU.

I don't believe that is correct. Although the
original remains public domain and that can't
be altered, any changes to that code can be
subjected to a new, restrictive licence, and
so the whole thing goes under that new
licence unless you have a way of isolating
which bits are really public domain.

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 25 March 2018 13:30
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1
or above)?

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If the code was public domain then you can’t add a more restrictive
licence such as GNU.

I don't believe that is correct. Although the original remains public domain
and that can't be altered, any changes to that code can be subjected to a
new, restrictive licence, and so the whole thing goes under that new licence
unless you have a way of isolating which bits are really public domain.

I don't see how that contradicts what I said. The original comment was how can Copyright code be GPL.
My answer was to be GPL the code must be Copyright. If the code is PUBLIC DOMAIN IBM canÂŽt add GPL Licences.
The must assert Copyright and then Licence it under the GPL.

Yes if it was Public Domain the could change it , Copyright the changes and Licence under GPL, but then its not Public Domain code they are licencing under GPL, its an adaption.
The changes would have to be sufficient to create a new version. You can't just change a few variable names.
Of course this is what happened with VM and MVS. The SP versions became copyright, but they have substantial changes..

BFN. Paul.

Dave

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

I don't disagree with the rest of what you said.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The changes would have to be sufficient to create
a new version. You can't just change a few variable names.

I think would require a court to decide.

I wouldn't push my luck if a few variable names
had been changed and insist that this was still
public domain code.

The minute someone presses a key, it's down
to a court to decide on the new work, and it is
indeed new work. And I think that is fair
enough too. If you want public domain code,
go back to the public domain version, not the
one with a copyright notice.

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 25 March 2018 15:43
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1
or above)?
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The changes would have to be sufficient to create a new version. You
can't just change a few variable names.

I think would require a court to decide.
I wouldn't push my luck if a few variable names had been changed and insist
that this was still public domain code.
The minute someone presses a key, it's down to a court to decide on the
new work, and it is indeed new work. And I think that is fair enough too. If
you want public domain code, go back to the public domain version, not the
one with a copyright notice.

IBM already set precedents on that, with stolen BIOS®s, but of course if that’s all that’s been done you can just use the original code.

BFN. Paul.

Dave

------------------------------------
------------------------------------

[Vince Coen [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Paul;

You are confusing copyright with license to use or re-use.

The copyright is by and for the original author and/or other who have
contributed to the work, the fact that they wanted it to be available
under the GPL license does NOT change that.

For example there is a lot of s/w released under the FSF banner and they
use the GPL license however the name of the programmers and document
authors are still recorded as in the Copyright notice and in the case of
GnuCOBOL the Copyright also includes FSF as a secondary name.

So IBM being the copyright holder and making code available under a
specific license is not incompatible.

Most authors of any work wish to retain their names as developers and
the copyright notice does the job.

Vincent

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The changes would have to be sufficient to create
a new version. You can't just change a few variable names.

I think would require a court to decide.
I wouldn't push my luck if a few variable names
had been changed and insist that this was still
public domain code.
The minute someone presses a key, it's down
to a court to decide on the new work, and it is
indeed new work. And I think that is fair
enough too. If you want public domain code,
go back to the public domain version, not the
one with a copyright notice.
BFN. Paul.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
You are confusing copyright with license to use or re-use.

Nothing you said has any relation to what I said.

I was making a point about people taking public
domain code and then asserting copyright over
the derived work. In the case of IBM and GPL
there is no public domain code involved.

BFN. Paul.

[Vince Coen [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

They can only place valid copyright over code that they introduced and
not over the full work.
Code changed they can add their name to the copyright for any directly
changed code.

I do this often where I have added improvements to other authored works
as well as other people who have donated improvements.



Vince

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
You are confusing copyright with license to use or re-use.

Nothing you said has any relation to what I said.
I was making a point about people taking public
domain code and then asserting copyright over
the derived work. In the case of IBM and GPL
there is no public domain code involved.
BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
They can only place valid copyright over code that they introduced and
not over the full work.

Sure. And I was just taking issue with Dave's
comment that changing a few variable names
isn't enough to create any form of copyright.
I disagree with that, and I believe once someone
types a single character, it is no longer the
original PD work, it is at least partially copyrighted
by the new person, and they can slap a copyright
notice on it, and only a court can decide whether
that one character change, which may be an
important bug fix, changing a 0 to a 1, is
enforceable or not.

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 25 March 2018 16:53
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above)?

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
They can only place valid copyright over code that they introduced and
not over the full work.

Sure. And I was just taking issue with Dave's comment that changing a few
variable names isn't enough to create any form of copyright.
I disagree with that, and I believe once someone types a single character, it is
no longer the original PD work, it is at least partially copyrighted by the new
person, and they can slap a copyright notice on it, and only a court can decide
whether that one character change, which may be an important bug fix,
changing a 0 to a 1, is enforceable or not.

It would be a "derived work" and according to

https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_derivative_works.en.htm

Copyright in the derivative work
Provided it is significantly different to the original work the derivative work will be subject to copyright in its own right, and you will own copyright to the new content you have created as a result of your actions. Bear in mind that to be subject to copyright >the creation of the derivative work must itself be an original work of skill, labour and judgement; minor alterations that do not substantially alter the original would not qualify.

But as you say it would be up to a court to decide. Like Patents with Copyright its easier to slap a Copyright notice in and rely on it to discourage folks than it is to do things properly. Of course you no longer need to include a Copyright Notice to assert copyright. The Authors automatically have this unless its specifically declared public domain..

BFN. Paul.

Dave

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[Gerhard Postpischil [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Sure. And I was just taking issue with Dave's
comment that changing a few variable names
isn't enough to create any form of copyright.
I disagree with that, and I believe once someone
types a single character, it is no longer the
original PD work, it is at least partially copyrighted
by the new person, and they can slap a copyright
notice on it, and only a court can decide whether
that one character change, which may be an
important bug fix, changing a 0 to a 1, is
enforceable or not.

Which makes me wonder about copyright protection for mapping macros. One
of the earliest copyright cases was with Bell Telephone's assertion of a
copyright for telephone books, and the court ruled that a listing per se
didn't qualify for protection.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

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[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Which makes me wonder about copyright
protection for mapping macros.

I bet they can't enforce copyright on those, but
only a court can decide that.

What I'd like to know is - copyright expires 70
years after the death of the author - but code
that is "copyright IBM" - does that expire 70
years after IBM goes bankrupt, or is someone
noting all the original authors and keeping
track of when they die? In fact, with no names,
and just "copyright IBM", is that actually
anonymous work and in the public domain?

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Paul,

Outside the USA 70 years, in the USA , 95 or 120 ...

http://www.iusmentis.com/copyright/crashcourse/duration/

For works published anonymously, or published by a corporation, the term of protection is 70 years after first publication. In these cases, there is no natural person who qualifies as the maker of the work. It is then not possible to make the term of protection >dependent on the life of the author.
In the USA, the above-mentioned extension also applies to such anonymous and corporate works. The term is now 95 years from the year of first publication, or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.

So pretty much "for ever" as far as I am concerned..

Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 25 March 2018 18:41
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or above)?

Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Which makes me wonder about copyright
protection for mapping macros.

I bet they can't enforce copyright on those, but only a court can decide that.
What I'd like to know is - copyright expires 70 years after the death of the
author - but code that is "copyright IBM" - does that expire 70 years after
IBM goes bankrupt, or is someone noting all the original authors and keeping
track of when they die? In fact, with no names, and just "copyright IBM", is
that actually anonymous work and in the public domain?
BFN. Paul.
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For works published anonymously, or published
by a corporation, the term of protection is 70
years after first publication.

Thanks for the info on corporations, but I am
surprised about the anonymous work. I
previously thought that anonymous work was
considered to be in the public domain, not
that you can't touch it for 70 years because
you can't contact the anonymous author
for permission to use.

BFN. Paul.

[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
Said the man who wrote that with a Yeti reading it over his shoulder.

Seriously though the last time I went over a similar issue with an
IBMer over the components for VM/370rel6 that are part of the paid for
that crowd, and he felt that the company no longer wanted to make it
available at all. I pointed out that there were people out there who
could benefit from the whole suite being available, and eventually
find themselves gainfully employed someplace.

I was thinking of two banks that at the time resembled a really bad comedy.

It went no place very fast. I was turned down flat. And we took the
conversation to something else.

I still don't know if the fellow is still employed by the company or
worse remember his name.

Oh and Dave if you want to know if I do remember his name, and what
about the next VCF meeting, feel free to write back off list.

-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Hi Dave. Actually I have it on very good authority that many within
IBM's management structure are keenly interested in getting more people
interested in z. Some are quite confused about it, wondering "why more
people aren't interested". This is straight from a some new internal
blood at IBM. He is regularly approached about this issue.
It seems that secrecy and "they will come to us" attitude is so deeply
ingrained in their culture that they just can't seem to wrap their
brains around the concept of openness.
Either way, though, as Ivan said this is at least somewhat off-topic
for this list. Not completely, however, IMO.
-Dave

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I don't believe IBM has any desire to get more people interested in Z,
or at least zOS or zVM, or at least not people who are "amateurs and
enthusiasts"
I believe that they want to keep it as a niche product for which they
can charge a huge premium, and so want to limit access to those
consultants who charge more than $2,000/day
I guess that the $4.920.00/year I see here is designed to ensure that occurs...
https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z-systems-development-test-environment
... mind if I was a Z developer that would see that as peanuts....
Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 22 March 2018 17:12
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Any way to obtain zPDT + ADCD version (zOS 2.1
or above)?
For all of IBM's deep internal desire for more people to get interested in
mainframes and mainframe OSs, this is probably the first barrier that they
should look to address.
-Dave

Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you have the money, sure.
It is a lot !
There is no Ed. programs that I have found.

Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Im not partner and i cant get the zPDT and ADCD version (zOS 2.1 or
above) . It there any way to obtain it for educational purposes?
Thanks in advance!

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[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Sure! I hope IBM will provide a legal way for non-partners


Thanks!