[hercules-390] Groups.io. Was:Re: This is another test...

[wilfred kazoks [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently moved to
Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done but everything seems to be
there.

https://groups.io/g/Super80

If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B. Although
I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from my occasional user
POV. It seems to works smoothly.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Groups.io has an automated tool for migration of Yahoo groups. Members, posts, files, etc. It requires very little effort.

Many Yahoo groups have moved there already, and it's being discussed on several others.

-Dave

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently moved to
Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done but everything seems to be
there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B. Although
I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from my occasional user
POV. It seems to works smoothly.
--
Regards
Wilfred
"PERGE SCELUS MIHI DIEM PERFICIAS"
- Sir Christopher Frayling

[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
When the Parallax company setup its own forum, original software not
its current set, they went through an unpleasant process in extracting
the messages from the Yahoo forum they did run, then importing it into
their site.

We have years of messages, it would be an involving process. I am
convinced that it might not work.

Said the man who wrote that below with four Yetis reading it over his shoulder.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Groups.io has an automated tool for migration of Yahoo groups. Members, posts, files, etc. It requires very little effort.
Many Yahoo groups have moved there already, and it's being discussed on several others.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently moved to
Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done but everything seems to be
there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B. Although
I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from my occasional user
POV. It seems to works smoothly.
--
Regards
Wilfred
"PERGE SCELUS MIHI DIEM PERFICIAS"
- Sir Christopher Frayling

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
When the Parallax company setup its own forum, original software not
its current set, they went through an unpleasant process in extracting
the messages from the Yahoo forum they did run, then importing it into
their site.
We have years of messages, it would be an involving process. I am
convinced that it might not work.

I have seen it work; it is not an involved process due to the
automated system. You point it at the Yahoo group, give it the admin
password, and it transfers everything. Several far FAR larger groups
than this have been migrated without hassle. Tekscopes comes to mind.

Groups.io is, as I understand it, run by the original architect of
Yahoo groups, from before all the kids started messing with it.

All of the Yahoo refugees are going there; this has been going on for
many months, it's not new.

I don't work for them, etc, but I'm a very impressed user and list owner.

-Dave

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Surely Yahoo has an "abandoned group" recovery procedure? Has anyone
researched this?

-Dave

On 05/01/2018 02:04 AM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
 

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently
moved to Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done
but everything seems to be there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B.
Although I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from
my occasional user POV. It seems to works smoothly.

While someone could certainly create a new hercules-390 group at
groups.io, the automatic groups.io transferring of our existing Yahoo
group data (YEARS of archived posts, uploaded files, etc) is,
unfortunately, NOT going to work.
The reason why it's not going to work becomes apparent at 0:38 mark into
"Migrating from Yahoo Groups to Groups IO - Initiating Transfer (Part 2)"
http://youtu.be/sdgJR9ZzcgE
That right there is the showstopper. :(
As far as I know, there is NO WAY for anyone OTHER than the group
owner(s) to invite someone to join a Yahoo group!
Why is that a problem you ask?
Because, as far as I know, JAY MAYNARD is the owner of the hercules-390
Yahoo group, and Jay Maynard is missing in action.
I've tried several times of the past several years to send him in email
asking him to please turn over control of the group to someone else if
he is no longer interested in Hercules or administering the group, and I
never received a reply. I'm not even sure the last email address I have
for him is even valid. I don't remember it bouncing, so I suspect it
might still be good (jmaynard at conmicro dotcom), but he is just not
responding. Has his email address changed? Who knows! Maybe one or more
of you other long time high profile members can have better luck getting
hold of him. Maybe he is purposely ignoring me but might not ignore you.
Who knows? All I know is I myself have been unable to contact him for
several years now.
I also recall having posted a message to the Hercules-Advocacy group
that he setup years ago too (hercules-advocacy at yahoogroups dotcom) --
which is a moderated group -- only to eventually receive an automated
reply many days later that the moderator failed to approve my post.
He didn't reject it. He just never responded to it. He just let it rot
in his inbox and let Yahoo's automatic handling let me know it was never
approved.
So that tells me he is NOT following through with his administrative
duties regarding administration of the Yahoo groups that he created and
is administrator/owner of (hercules-390 and hercules-advocacy and who
knows how many others).
So.... until we can somehow resolve the owner/administrator problem
regarding our existing hercules-390 Yahoo group, doing a groups.io
automated transfer is just NOT going to work since doing the "invite" is
currently impossible (and that's Step #1!).
BUT... like I said, we COULD maybe create a new groups.io group and then
have someone post a message to our existing hercules-390 Yahoo group on
a regular basis (say, every few days or so) letting existing members and
lurkers and new members that the group is no longer active and that they
should instead join our new groups.io group. We could try that.
But we'd of course lose all of our many years of archived posts.
As far as all of the uploaded files that exist in our existing Files
area goes, since any existing member can easily download them, we COULD
transfer them over to our new groups.io group, but it would be a PITA
since there are so many. (But it *could* be done.)
So there's the issues.
A decision has to be made.
And I'm not sure who needs to make it.
Is it a decision that we, the group, make together? (We have over 7000
members!)
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if so,
who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)
I have no answers to any of these questions.
I just want to get the HELL OFF OF YAHOO as soon as possible.
(I sure as hell hope this post gets through! I see my earlier "test"
posting FINALLY made their way to the group (days and days later!), so
*hopefully* this one will too. We'll see.)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Dave,
It does, but given the mess Yahoo is in its in, not sure its going anywhere.. Can any one see the membership list?
Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 01 May 2018 07:24
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Groups.io. Was:Re: This is another test...
Surely Yahoo has an "abandoned group" recovery procedure? Has anyone
researched this?
-Dave
On 05/01/2018 02:04 AM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently moved to
Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done but everything seems to
be there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B.
Although I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from my
occasional user POV. It seems to works smoothly.

While someone could certainly create a new hercules-390 group at
groups.io, the automatic groups.io transferring of our existing Yahoo
group data (YEARS of archived posts, uploaded files, etc) is,
unfortunately, NOT going to work.
The reason why it's not going to work becomes apparent at 0:38 mark
"Migrating from Yahoo Groups to Groups IO - Initiating Transfer (Part 2)"
http://youtu.be/sdgJR9ZzcgE
That right there is the showstopper. :(
As far as I know, there is NO WAY for anyone OTHER than the group
owner(s) to invite someone to join a Yahoo group!
Why is that a problem you ask?
Because, as far as I know, JAY MAYNARD is the owner of the
hercules-390 Yahoo group, and Jay Maynard is missing in action.
I've tried several times of the past several years to send him in
email asking him to please turn over control of the group to someone
else if he is no longer interested in Hercules or administering the
group, and I never received a reply. I'm not even sure the last email
address I have for him is even valid. I don't remember it bouncing, so
I suspect it might still be good (jmaynard at conmicro dotcom), but he
is just not responding. Has his email address changed? Who knows!
Maybe one or more of you other long time high profile members can have
better luck getting hold of him. Maybe he is purposely ignoring me but

might not ignore you.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Who knows? All I know is I myself have been unable to contact him for
several years now.
I also recall having posted a message to the Hercules-Advocacy group
that he setup years ago too (hercules-advocacy at yahoogroups dotcom)
-- which is a moderated group -- only to eventually receive an
automated reply many days later that the moderator failed to approve my

post.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
He didn't reject it. He just never responded to it. He just let it rot
in his inbox and let Yahoo's automatic handling let me know it was
never approved.
So that tells me he is NOT following through with his administrative
duties regarding administration of the Yahoo groups that he created
and is administrator/owner of (hercules-390 and hercules-advocacy and
who knows how many others).
So.... until we can somehow resolve the owner/administrator problem
regarding our existing hercules-390 Yahoo group, doing a groups.io
automated transfer is just NOT going to work since doing the "invite"
is currently impossible (and that's Step #1!).
BUT... like I said, we COULD maybe create a new groups.io group and
then have someone post a message to our existing hercules-390 Yahoo
group on a regular basis (say, every few days or so) letting existing
members and lurkers and new members that the group is no longer active
and that they should instead join our new groups.io group. We could try

that.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But we'd of course lose all of our many years of archived posts.
As far as all of the uploaded files that exist in our existing Files
area goes, since any existing member can easily download them, we
COULD transfer them over to our new groups.io group, but it would be a
PITA since there are so many. (But it *could* be done.)
So there's the issues.
A decision has to be made.
And I'm not sure who needs to make it.
Is it a decision that we, the group, make together? (We have over 7000
members!)
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if
so, who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)
I have no answers to any of these questions.
I just want to get the HELL OFF OF YAHOO as soon as possible.
(I sure as hell hope this post gets through! I see my earlier "test"
posting FINALLY made their way to the group (days and days later!), so
*hopefully* this one will too. We'll see.)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Dave Wade wrote:

[...]

Can anyone see the membership list?

Where does that link exist? What page? I poked around but could not see anywhere (any link) where you could view any type of members list (i.e. who belongs to the group).

It's a good question though! I suspect only owners/moderators are allowed to view such a thing so if there's anyone here that can view it, then they're likely a moderator/owner and our existing problem would likely be moot.

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Surely Yahoo has an "abandoned group" recovery procedure?
Has anyone researched this?

Yep:

https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Groups/Yahoo-Groups-Transfer-Group-Ownership/td-p/40


Which is absolutely no help at all, of course.


However, the following looks slightly promising:

https://forums.yahoo.net/t5/Groups/Group-owner-passed-away-moderators-unreachable-Poll-created-Want/td-p/2326


The only problem with the above is actually getting someone at Yahoo to do their job once voting is complete. We're at their mercy and they don't exactly have a very good track record at providing support.

Still, if it's the best we can do it might be worth a shot. <shrug>

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

He posts on twitter a couple times a month or so. Hasn't responded to
posts requesting he turn over mainframe assets.

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 1:04 AM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently
moved to Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done
but everything seems to be there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B.
Although I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from
my occasional user POV. It seems to works smoothly.

While someone could certainly create a new hercules-390 group at groups.io, the automatic groups.io transferring of our existing Yahoo group data (YEARS of archived posts, uploaded files, etc) is, unfortunately, NOT going to work.
"Migrating from Yahoo Groups to Groups IO - Initiating Transfer (Part 2)"
http://youtu.be/sdgJR9ZzcgE
That right there is the showstopper. :(
As far as I know, there is NO WAY for anyone OTHER than the group owner(s) to invite someone to join a Yahoo group!
Why is that a problem you ask?
Because, as far as I know, JAY MAYNARD is the owner of the hercules-390 Yahoo group, and Jay Maynard is missing in action.
I've tried several times of the past several years to send him in email asking him to please turn over control of the group to someone else if he is no longer interested in Hercules or administering the group, and I never received a reply. I'm not even sure the last email address I have for him is even valid. I don't remember it bouncing, so I suspect it might still be good (jmaynard at conmicro dotcom), but he is just not responding. Has his email address changed? Who knows! Maybe one or more of you other long time high profile members can have better luck getting hold of him. Maybe he is purposely ignoring me but might not ignore you. Who knows? All I know is I myself have been unable to contact him for several years now.
I also recall having posted a message to the Hercules-Advocacy group that he setup years ago too (hercules-advocacy at yahoogroups dotcom) -- which is a moderated group -- only to eventually receive an automated reply many days later that the moderator failed to approve my post.
He didn't reject it. He just never responded to it. He just let it rot in his inbox and let Yahoo's automatic handling let me know it was never approved.
So that tells me he is NOT following through with his administrative duties regarding administration of the Yahoo groups that he created and is administrator/owner of (hercules-390 and hercules-advocacy and who knows how many others).
So.... until we can somehow resolve the owner/administrator problem regarding our existing hercules-390 Yahoo group, doing a groups.io automated transfer is just NOT going to work since doing the "invite" is currently impossible (and that's Step #1!).
BUT... like I said, we COULD maybe create a new groups.io group and then have someone post a message to our existing hercules-390 Yahoo group on a regular basis (say, every few days or so) letting existing members and lurkers and new members that the group is no longer active and that they should instead join our new groups.io group. We could try that.
But we'd of course lose all of our many years of archived posts.
As far as all of the uploaded files that exist in our existing Files area goes, since any existing member can easily download them, we COULD transfer them over to our new groups.io group, but it would be a PITA since there are so many. (But it *could* be done.)
So there's the issues.
A decision has to be made.
And I'm not sure who needs to make it.
Is it a decision that we, the group, make together? (We have over 7000 members!)
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if so, who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)
I have no answers to any of these questions.
I just want to get the HELL OFF OF YAHOO as soon as possible.
(I sure as hell hope this post gets through! I see my earlier "test" posting FINALLY made their way to the group (days and days later!), so *hopefully* this one will too. We'll see.)
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by wilfred kazoks ***@bigpond.net.au [hercules-390]
I am a member of another Yahoo group that was recently
moved to Groups.io. I don't know how the move was done
but everything seems to be there.
https://groups.io/g/Super80
If Yahoo groups gets shut down It can't hurt to have a plan B.
Although I'm not saying Groups.io is demonstrably better from
my occasional user POV. It seems to works smoothly.

While someone could certainly create a new hercules-390 group at
groups.io, the automatic groups.io transferring of our existing Yahoo
group data (YEARS of archived posts, uploaded files, etc) is,
unfortunately, NOT going to work.
"Migrating from Yahoo Groups to Groups IO - Initiating Transfer (Part 2)"
http://youtu.be/sdgJR9ZzcgE
That right there is the showstopper. :(
As far as I know, there is NO WAY for anyone OTHER than the group owner(s) to invite someone to join a Yahoo group!

It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.

I've a "store" of this group from the date:

Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012

of my initial subscription, around 400Mb of messages,
for the last six years.

With some work, I may extract the list of addresses
of list members.

May be of any help?

Peppe.

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012
of my initial subscription, around 400Mb of messages,
for the last six years.
With some work, I may extract the list of addresses
of list members.
May be of any help?

Well, not a lot of work. I've a sorted, uniq filtered,
list of 591 distinct addresses on my /tmp filesystem.

If anyone have an idea of the size of the complete
feed, we may understand how complete may be this
list.

Peppe.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012

Unsure of why you consider that to be a "bad" habit. It seems the
problem of the subscriber list is solved with that, except for any lurkers.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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Files and archives at:
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Get the latest version of Hercules from:
http://www.hercules-390.org


------------------------------------

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['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Giuseppe Vitillaro wrote:

[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012
of my initial subscription, around 400Mb of messages,
for the last six years.

Got you beat. :)

I, like you, also save all emails I receive and have Hercules emails on my system going back to the year 2000. Over 18 years worth (about 6GB). Beat THAT! ;-)

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012
of my initial subscription, around 400Mb of messages,
for the last six years.

Got you beat. :)
I, like you, also save all emails I receive and have Hercules emails on
my system going back to the year 2000. Over 18 years worth (about 6GB).
Beat THAT! ;-)

Maybe you don't David ;-) My interests on the hercules emulator
are rather recent, began around the end of 2011.

But my personal "archive" oldest saved received message header is:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From ***@parasoft.com Mon Sep 14 22:24:41 1992
Received: by ipgaix.unipg.it (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) from [131.215.145.136]
with SMTP
id AA108587 (for peppe, from
***@parasoft.com/***@parasoft.com); Mon, 14 Sep 92 22:24:41 +0100
------------------------------------------------------------------------

and the total size is around 15Gb, with many pieces actually
"compressed" ;-)

By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM AIX/370, running
on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM ;-)

Peppe.

[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
Peppe you mention " By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM
AIX/370, running on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM
;-)"

You use the term "was" in that description, does this that remarkable
setup was since shutdown? If so, it would be a shame. Especially since
John Hartmann told me that the only user of AIX/370 was a school in
Norway. (Well he said so in a message in these fora but its almost the
same thing.)

I've been trying to track down a copy of that one ever since the
original two pack system for VM/370 was made available to us. Now I
grok that IBM would be extremely reluctant to release it to us, (or
anyone for that matter now) but it would be a worthwhile cause in and
of itself.

I remember attending an event regarding such oddball operating
systems, no not VM/370 but AIX and its relatives, and I was handed a
hat that the division had made up. At the time they were based in the
same location where the PC was created initially.

And I remember meeting the original systems that the OS also ran on,
several times. But that is a discussion for a completely different
time and place and a forum.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:34 AM, Giuseppe Vitillaro

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,
I may have lost few, in the order of 100, for network
accidents) on my system.
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012
of my initial subscription, around 400Mb of messages,
for the last six years.

Got you beat. :)
I, like you, also save all emails I receive and have Hercules emails on
my system going back to the year 2000. Over 18 years worth (about 6GB).
Beat THAT! ;-)

Maybe you don't David ;-) My interests on the hercules emulator
are rather recent, began around the end of 2011.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Received: by ipgaix.unipg.it (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) from [131.215.145.136]
with SMTP
id AA108587 (for peppe, from
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and the total size is around 15Gb, with many pieces actually
"compressed" ;-)
By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM AIX/370, running
on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM ;-)
Peppe.

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Peppe you mention " By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM
AIX/370, running on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM
;-)"
You use the term "was" in that description, does this that remarkable
setup was since shutdown? If so, it would be a shame. Especially since
John Hartmann told me that the only user of AIX/370 was a school in
Norway. (Well he said so in a message in these fora but its almost the
same thing.)

Unfortunately, the hw where ipgaix was running had been broken
in pieces, nothing that can be reasonably recovered and moved to another
platform ;-(

I just verified last year, it is GONE, FOREVER ;-( ;-( ;-(

(well I didn't check for still existing 3480 tapes, but I wouldn't
be able to read them, I just phoned for a check, but ... how
to recover them, in the case?).

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I've been trying to track down a copy of that one ever since the
original two pack system for VM/370 was made available to us. Now I
grok that IBM would be extremely reluctant to release it to us, (or
anyone for that matter now) but it would be a worthwhile cause in and
of itself.

I know, and worst was not only a single AIX/370, but actually
a "cluster" of AIX/370 and AIX/PS2, connected in a "single image
system" using ... how was called ... TCF? ...

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I remember attending an event regarding such oddball operating
systems, no not VM/370 but AIX and its relatives, and I was handed a
hat that the division had made up. At the time they were based in the
same location where the PC was created initially.

I had been in touch with AIX/ESA too ;-) ... I was an AIX SE
at my IBM time.

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And I remember meeting the original systems that the OS also ran on,
several times. But that is a discussion for a completely different
time and place and a forum.

Even worst, its /usr/local had all the goodies of its age,
most of the tools we still use today, from TeX to gnuplot,
from emacs to gopher, from sendmail to archie it was even handling a
completeUsenet News Groups feed ;-( Have a look, is in italian,
but I guess you may check the images, at least:

http://www.vitillaro.org/papers/general/indiv.pdf

I personally compiled and installed around hundred of megabytes
of tools, over almost five years, for its rather unique /usr/local.

May I cry for a while, Gregg? ;-(

Peppe.

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I worked on the AIX PS/2 side of things at the time (along with many folks
at Locus Computer) and TCF (Transparent Compute Facility) was *really* cool..

The systems (AIX/370 and AIX PS/2) shared a common file system.
It has what would now be considered “fat” binaries and would run the
code on the “closest” system that matched the architecture available.

I found that the easiest/fastest way to install AIX on a new machine was to
connect it to an “existing” cluster, boot up the install diskette and have it
join the cluster (one floppy on the PS/2). Part of joining the cluster
was to sync the file systems, since the “new” machine had no file
system, it would start requesting all of the updates from the other
machines in the cluster. If I didn’t want the machine to remain in the
cluster, it was easy to “disconnect” it and it would be stand alone.

Sad that none of this has survived. :-(

TTFN - Guy

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Peppe you mention " By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM
AIX/370, running on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM
;-)"
You use the term "was" in that description, does this that remarkable
setup was since shutdown? If so, it would be a shame. Especially since
John Hartmann told me that the only user of AIX/370 was a school in
Norway. (Well he said so in a message in these fora but its almost the
same thing.)

Unfortunately, the hw where ipgaix was running had been broken
in pieces, nothing that can be reasonably recovered and moved to another
platform ;-(
I just verified last year, it is GONE, FOREVER ;-( ;-( ;-(
(well I didn't check for still existing 3480 tapes, but I wouldn't
be able to read them, I just phoned for a check, but ... how
to recover them, in the case?).

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I've been trying to track down a copy of that one ever since the
original two pack system for VM/370 was made available to us. Now I
grok that IBM would be extremely reluctant to release it to us, (or
anyone for that matter now) but it would be a worthwhile cause in and
of itself.

I know, and worst was not only a single AIX/370, but actually
a "cluster" of AIX/370 and AIX/PS2, connected in a "single image
system" using ... how was called ... TCF? ...

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I remember attending an event regarding such oddball operating
systems, no not VM/370 but AIX and its relatives, and I was handed a
hat that the division had made up. At the time they were based in the
same location where the PC was created initially.

I had been in touch with AIX/ESA too ;-) ... I was an AIX SE
at my IBM time.

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And I remember meeting the original systems that the OS also ran on,
several times. But that is a discussion for a completely different
time and place and a forum.

Even worst, its /usr/local had all the goodies of its age,
most of the tools we still use today, from TeX to gnuplot,
from emacs to gopher, from sendmail to archie it was even handling a
completeUsenet News Groups feed ;-( Have a look, is in italian,
http://www.vitillaro.org/papers/general/indiv.pdf <http://www.vitillaro.org/papers/general/indiv.pdf>
I personally compiled and installed around hundred of megabytes
of tools, over almost five years, for its rather unique /usr/local.
May I cry for a while, Gregg? ;-(
Peppe.

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I worked on the AIX PS/2 side of things at the time (along with many folks
at Locus Computer) and TCF (Transparent Compute Facility) was *really* cool..
The systems (AIX/370 and AIX PS/2) shared a common file system.
It has what would now be considered ÿÿfatÿÿ binaries and would run the
code on the ÿÿclosestÿÿ system that matched the architecture available.
I found that the easiest/fastest way to install AIX on a new machine was to
connect it to an ÿÿexistingÿÿ cluster, boot up the install diskette and have it
join the cluster (one floppy on the PS/2). Part of joining the cluster
was to sync the file systems, since the ÿÿnewÿÿ machine had no file
system, it would start requesting all of the updates from the other
machines in the cluster. If I didnÿÿt want the machine to remain in the
cluster, it was easy to ÿÿdisconnectÿÿ it and it would be stand alone.
Sad that none of this has survived. :-(
TTFN - Guy

Well ... maybe ... some piece has survived.

Had a long phone call with the last, retired, manager of
our University mainframe shop, closed around 2002.

Maybe ... maybe ... tapes have survived ...

Now ... just in the case they had ... damn ... how to read them?

Peppe.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Giuseppe Vitillaro (Peppe) wrote:

[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Well ... maybe ... some piece has survived.
Had a long phone call with the last, retired, manager
of our University mainframe shop, closed around 2002.
Maybe ... maybe ... tapes have survived ...
Now ... just in the case they had ... damn ... how to
read them?

Worry about that later! JUST GET THE TAPES!

I am 100% confident we can find someone to read them!

JUST GET THOSE TAPES! (Please?)

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Well ... maybe ... some piece has survived.
Had a long phone call with the last, retired, manager
of our University mainframe shop, closed around 2002.
Maybe ... maybe ... tapes have survived ...
Now ... just in the case they had ... damn ... how to
read them?

Worry about that later! JUST GET THE TAPES!
I am 100% confident we can find someone to read them!
JUST GET THOSE TAPES! (Please?)

I'll try, no warrant any of them is still
available. No one looked to them for at least
the last 15 years, so ... wish me lucky ...
and generally I'm not :-( ... Murphy laws
beat really hard on me each time I leave
open the door to entropy :-(

If I'll be lucky, I may find backup
tapes of my ipgaix and ipguniv VM/XA
(maybe even the original IBM product tapes).

I had a look around. There are SCSI 3480
tapes available on the Net and I may connect one of them to a
PCI SCSI adapters (I've many still around
in their boxes and a couple actually installed).

Any idea of their prices? They are not quoted
on the Web.

May I think to use one of them to convert
tape in AWS/HET format suitable to be
digested by the hercules emulator?

Guess "tapecopy" would do that, I never used it, but
it seems build exactly with this in mind.

Peppe.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
I had a look around. There are SCSI 3480
tapes available on the Net and I may connect one of them to a
PCI SCSI adapters (I've many still around
in their boxes and a couple actually installed).
Any idea of their prices? They are not quoted
on the Web.

Anywhere from fifty bucks to $10K, depending on who's asking, and
who's answering.

If this would be your first time recovering data from old tapes,
though, I would respectfully suggest that you either let someone else do
this batch, or (more practically) get some other less-valuable 3480s to
get comfortable on. Depending on just how old they really are, a number
of bad things can happen to them while they're packed up.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Guess "tapecopy" would do that, I never used it, but
it seems build exactly with this in mind.

Yes, that's one tool.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
I had a look around. There are SCSI 3480
tapes available on the Net and I may connect one of them to a
PCI SCSI adapters (I've many still around
in their boxes and a couple actually installed).
Any idea of their prices? They are not quoted
on the Web.

Anywhere from fifty bucks to $10K, depending on who's asking, and
who's answering.
If this would be your first time recovering data from old tapes,
though, I would respectfully suggest that you either let someone else do
this batch, or (more practically) get some other less-valuable 3480s to
get comfortable on. Depending on just how old they really are, a number
of bad things can happen to them while they're packed up.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Guess "tapecopy" would do that, I never used it, but
it seems build exactly with this in mind.

Yes, that's one tool.
-Dave

Thanks for advices Dave. I'll take this point with
all the respect I may show, if any of the valuable
tapes show up.

I would never try with one of these tape as my
first guess :-). I've some empty 3480 and some
personal backup copy in my room to try, before
even thinking to touch one of the "real" tapes.

Anyway, it may be possible my University will
not allow me to send tapes outside our organization.

The tapes may still contain "sensible" data, beside
the goodies we are interested in.

But all of this is simply a bet, by now.

Maybe all the tapes had been already thrown into
the trashcan :-(

Peppe.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Anyway, it may be possible my University will
not allow me to send tapes outside our organization.
The tapes may still contain "sensible" data, beside
the goodies we are interested in.
But all of this is simply a bet, by now.
Maybe all the tapes had been already thrown into
the trashcan :-(

Well that's not very optimistic, is it? ;)

Isn't it weird how suitly organizations know "SOOOPER SECRET THE WORLD
WILL END IF ANYONE ELSE SEES THIS" or "it's trash", but nothing in between?

Anyway, my organization has successfully negotiated contracts with
donors to recover hardware (and in some cases, software) while providing
for the identification, care, and destruction of proprietary or
sensitive data. We're talking payroll and accounting records, not
university material. If the tapes exist, and if the university will not
release them for that reason, and they can't "just find their way out
the door" if you know what I mean, I would be willing to open a dialogue
with them and discuss a contract to handle the tapes.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Anyway, it may be possible my University will
not allow me to send tapes outside our organization.
The tapes may still contain "sensible" data, beside
the goodies we are interested in.
But all of this is simply a bet, by now.
Maybe all the tapes had been already thrown into
the trashcan :-(

Well that's not very optimistic, is it? ;)
Isn't it weird how suitly organizations know "SOOOPER SECRET THE WORLD
WILL END IF ANYONE ELSE SEES THIS" or "it's trash", but nothing in between?
Anyway, my organization has successfully negotiated contracts with
donors to recover hardware (and in some cases, software) while providing
for the identification, care, and destruction of proprietary or
sensitive data. We're talking payroll and accounting records, not
university material. If the tapes exist, and if the university will not
release them for that reason, and they can't "just find their way out
the door" if you know what I mean, I would be willing to open a dialogue
with them and discuss a contract to handle the tapes.
-Dave

Appreciated, Dave, I will ask, of course.

Maybe they will allow me to send the tapes,
in this case it may just become a question of
money. I don't think people here is willing
to spend a big bunch of money for recovering
history.

If I'll find the tapes and I will allowed
to send them outside unipg, I'll take your
words, Dave and I'll contact you privately.

For me would be enough to send the tapes
and get back an hard disk with the AWS/HET
files, cataloged by their labels.

I understand now how complex may be to manage
them, apologies for my naivness and thanks so
much for the advices. Appreciated.

I speak a lot, I listen a lot :-)

Thanks, Peppe.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Maybe they will allow me to send the tapes,
in this case it may just become a question of
money. I don't think people here is willing
to spend a big bunch of money for recovering
history.

I myself would not charge for this. I run a public museum. I would
do the work for the good of the community.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
If I'll find the tapes and I will allowed
to send them outside unipg, I'll take your
words, Dave and I'll contact you privately.

But remember, it might be a better approach to just...walk them out
the door. Just don't get caught. ;)

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
For me would be enough to send the tapes
and get back an hard disk with the AWS/HET
files, cataloged by their labels.

I will help if I can.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Dave McGuire wrote:

[...]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
If this would be your first time recovering data from old
tapes, though, I would respectfully suggest that you either
let someone else do this batch, or (more practically) get
some other less-valuable 3480s to get comfortable on.

VERY wise advice. Tapes that are many years old and/or not stored properly can become sticky/gummy and trying to read them without special equipment can actually destroy the tape (and whatever data may have been on it). It is BEST to let someone more experienced at data recovery perform the actual recovery instead.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Depending on just how old they really are, a number
of bad things can happen to them while they're packed
up.

Yep. You need to be VERY CAREFUL with old tapes or even new ones if they're not stored properly.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Guess "tapecopy" would do that, I never used it, but
it seems build exactly with this in mind.

Yes, that's one tool.

Hercules's "tapecopy" utility is the only one that I am *personally* aware of, but there are probably several out there on the 'net somewhere that likely could also do the job. Which tools do you use, Dave?

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

On 05/02/2018 05:56 PM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hercules's "tapecopy" utility is the only one that I am *personally*
aware of, but there are probably several out there on the 'net somewhere
that likely could also do the job. Which tools do you use, Dave?

A bunch of different ones, depending on the job at hand. A lot of
times I use timage by Doug Gwyn, sometimes plain old "dd" will do the
trick. I generally use Hercules' tapecopy for tapes from the IBM world.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
A while ago, I once asked Jim Elliot of IBM Canada about tracking down
the components of VM/370 that a regular user would have had to
actually pay for. I was ready to point out the stuff that you used in
reasoning with us, Dave M, and he gave a flat-out "NO!". In addition
he also mentioned that IBM was seriously considering a law suit
against the original developer of Hercules. I believe it was dropped
if only because a lot of people on the inside were using it to develop
better Linux solutions.
This came up around the time IBM formerly announced the idea of
running Linux work loads on S/390 hardware, so it was about 1999.

Eventually about the time IBM moved z/VM to a 64 bit object model from
a 32 bit one, they were also developing the barebones behind what is
now Z/PDT. Most of us know about the suits that Funsoft and a number
of other companies attempted to bring against IBM citing breach of
contract, especially since Funsoft was told that they were not
entitled to receive the emulation stuff that would enable them to run
later releases of z/VM and we know more or less what happened next.

Personally and I suspect that John will scoff at that, and laugh
loudly next at it, but what bothered the people at IBM who backed
Funsoft were furious at an emulator who could run VM based workloads
faster then the thing from Funsoft. (Incidentally that's only an
opinion and only that.)

Say Fish how come you were seen reading that with a Pacific Salmon
reading over your shoulder?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
On 05/02/2018 05:56 PM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hercules's "tapecopy" utility is the only one that I am *personally*
aware of, but there are probably several out there on the 'net somewhere
that likely could also do the job. Which tools do you use, Dave?

A bunch of different ones, depending on the job at hand. A lot of
times I use timage by Doug Gwyn, sometimes plain old "dd" will do the
trick. I generally use Hercules' tapecopy for tapes from the IBM world.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

On 05/02/2018 03:21 PM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Now ... just in the case they had ... damn ... how to
read them?

Worry about that later! JUST GET THE TAPES!
I am 100% confident we can find someone to read them!
JUST GET THOSE TAPES! (Please?)

What Fish said. That software is far too important to risk loss. It
may have been lost already...and that would be tragic. If there's any
chance at recovering it, it must be pursued.

I am willing and able to read the tapes, as I'm sure are many others.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I worked on the AIX PS/2 side of things at the time (along with many folks
at Locus Computer) and TCF (Transparent Compute Facility) was *really* cool.
The systems (AIX/370 and AIX PS/2) shared a common file system.
It has what would now be considered “fat” binaries and would run the
code on the “closest” system that matched the architecture available.

Oh MAN that is cool.

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I found that the easiest/fastest way to install AIX on a new machine was to
connect it to an “existing” cluster, boot up the install diskette and have it
join the cluster (one floppy on the PS/2).  Part of joining the cluster
was to sync the file systems, since the “new” machine had no file
system, it would start requesting all of the updates from the other
machines in the cluster.  If I didn’t want the machine to remain in the
cluster, it was easy to “disconnect” it and it would be stand alone.

That is unbelievably cool. I had no idea that early AIX
implementations had such power.

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Sad that none of this has survived.  :-(

None of it?! Are you certain?

-Dave

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I worked on the AIX PS/2 side of things at the time (along with many folks
at Locus Computer) and TCF (Transparent Compute Facility) was *really* cool.
The systems (AIX/370 and AIX PS/2) shared a common file system.
It has what would now be considered “fat” binaries and would run the
code on the “closest” system that matched the architecture available.

Oh MAN that is cool.

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I found that the easiest/fastest way to install AIX on a new machine was to
connect it to an “existing” cluster, boot up the install diskette and have it
join the cluster (one floppy on the PS/2). Part of joining the cluster
was to sync the file systems, since the “new” machine had no file
system, it would start requesting all of the updates from the other
machines in the cluster. If I didn’t want the machine to remain in the
cluster, it was easy to “disconnect” it and it would be stand alone.

That is unbelievably cool. I had no idea that early AIX
implementations had such power.

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Sad that none of this has survived. :-(

None of it?! Are you certain?

I just reached out to some friends of mine who worked at Locus Computing
at the time. They were under contract from IBM to develop this stuff. They
believe that all the materials were returned to IBM at the end of the contract.

I haven’t exhausted all avenues but its doubtful that there’s anything available.
IBM *may* have some bits but good luck finding someone who knows (or cares)..

TTFN - Guy

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I worked on the AIX PS/2 side of things at the time (along with many folks
at Locus Computer) and TCF (Transparent Compute Facility) was *really* cool.
The systems (AIX/370 and AIX PS/2) shared a common file system.
It has what would now be considered ÿÿfatÿÿ binaries and would run the
code on the ÿÿclosestÿÿ system that matched the architecture available.

Oh MAN that is cool.

Yep, it is ;-) And it works ... ehm worked? ...

We had 1 mainframe and 3 PC in cluster, a single
image system, connected by a 10Mbits ethernet,
thick cable, across of 3 different Departments,
in different buildings ;-)

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I found that the easiest/fastest way to install AIX on a new machine was to
connect it to an ÿÿexistingÿÿ cluster, boot up the install diskette and
have it
join the cluster (one floppy on the PS/2).  Part of joining the cluster
was to sync the file systems, since the ÿÿnewÿÿ machine had no file
system, it would start requesting all of the updates from the other
machines in the cluster.  If I didnÿÿt want the machine to remain in the
cluster, it was easy to ÿÿdisconnectÿÿ it and it would be stand alone.

That is unbelievably cool. I had no idea that early AIX
implementations had such power.

It really had!

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Sad that none of this has survived.  :-(

None of it?! Are you certain?

Well, let see if tapes show up, then we look
for the AIX PS/2 floppies, isn't?

I don't remember if actually the floppies
may have been built from images in the mainframe
version.

Anyone remember?

Peppe.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Guy Sotomayor Jr ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Sad that none of this has survived. :-(

None of it?! Are you certain?

Well, let see if tapes show up, then we look
for the AIX PS/2 floppies, isn't?
I don't remember if actually the floppies
may have been built from images in the mainframe
version.
Anyone remember?

I *think* the AIX PS/2 floppy images were part of the AIX/370
distribution. I *never* installed that way, since being on the
AIX PS/2 team we produced floppies (lots and lots of floppies)
which is why it was cool when I figured out how to install from
a pre-existing cluster (which could be a single machine) with
only one floppy (maybe it was 3
but a whole lot better than
the 30-40 floppies for a normal install).

TTFN - Guy

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
I just verified last year, it is GONE, FOREVER ;-( ;-( ;-(
(well I didn't check for still existing 3480 tapes, but I wouldn't
be able to read them, I just phoned for a check, but ... how
to recover them, in the case?).

If you find them, I can read 3480 tapes here at the museum. This is
not an unusual capability.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Even worst, its /usr/local had all the goodies of its age,
most of the tools we still use today, from TeX to gnuplot,
from emacs to gopher, from sendmail to archie it was even handling a
completeUsenet News Groups feed ;-(

WANT. THAT. SO. BADLY.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

[...]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
(well I didn't check for still existing 3480 tapes, but I
wouldn't be able to read them, I just phoned for a check,
but ... how to recover them, in the case?).

If you find them, I can read 3480 tapes here at the museum.
This is not an unusual capability.

Agreed. There are in fact several people on this list who can read 3480 cartridges.

I forget who they are (other than you of course, Dave) but I know they exist, and I highly suspect they'd be MORE than willing to help us preserve some important computing history!

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Even worst, its /usr/local had all the goodies of its age,
most of the tools we still use today, from TeX to gnuplot,
from emacs to gopher, from sendmail to archie it was even
handling a completeUsenet News Groups feed ;-(

WANT. THAT. SO. BADLY.

WHAT. HE. SAID.

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]

Got you beat. :)
I, like you, also save all emails I receive and have Hercules
emails on my system going back to the year 2000. Over 18 years
worth (about 6GB). Beat THAT! ;-)

Maybe you don't David ;-) My interests on the hercules emulator
are rather recent, began around the end of 2011.
----------------------------------------------------------
Received: by ipgaix.unipg.it (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) from
[131.215.145.136] with SMTP id AA108587 (for peppe, from
----------------------------------------------------------
and the total size is around 15Gb, with many pieces actually
"compressed" ;-)

LOL! Okay, I admit it. You've got me beat. :-))

(Wow. 26 years worth? I'm impressed!)

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM AIX/370,
running on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM ;-)

Cool! :-)

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
[...]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]

Got you beat. :)
I, like you, also save all emails I receive and have Hercules
emails on my system going back to the year 2000. Over 18 years
worth (about 6GB). Beat THAT! ;-)

Maybe you don't David ;-) My interests on the hercules emulator
are rather recent, began around the end of 2011.
----------------------------------------------------------
Received: by ipgaix.unipg.it (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) from
[131.215.145.136] with SMTP id AA108587 (for peppe, from
----------------------------------------------------------
and the total size is around 15Gb, with many pieces actually
"compressed" ;-)

LOL! Okay, I admit it. You've got me beat. :-))
(Wow. 26 years worth? I'm impressed!)

Well, actually a bit more, there are messages
lasting 1991 in my archive ;-)

==========================================================================
From @IPGUNIV.unipg.it:***@labmed.ucsf.EDU Thu Oct 3 21:48:26 1991
Received: by ipgaix.unipg.it (5.61-AIX-1.2/1.0) from [141.250.1.1] with
SMTP
id AA100385 (for peppe, from
@IPGUNIV.unipg.it:***@labmed.ucsf.EDU/@IPGUNIV.unipg.it:***@labmed.ucsf.EDU);
Thu, 3 Oct 91 21:48:26 +0100
Received: from cgl.ucsf.EDU by IPGUNIV.unipg.it (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with
TCP; Thu, 03 Oct 91 21:49:10 SET
===========================================================================

My first "ping" to "ftp.mit.edu" from "ipgaix" had been done
in the 1991 summer.

You may not believe it, but the first stable connection
of our University, Perugia/Italy, with Iternet had been done from
a VM (IPGUNIV) (I think was a VM/XA) and an AIX/370 1.2 (ipgaix), running
in an IBM 3090/VEC.

The DNS domain "unipg.it" was setup at the same time, with
a couple of primary/secondary VM-AIX.

In Italy, at that time, connection with the Internet had
been numbered in the order of probably two digits, maybe less.

Lol ... as you wrote ... David ... time fly ... ;-(

Peppe.

P.S. These are not my oldest saved messages. I've stored
offline somewhere IBM VNET messages lasting 1987, at least ;-) ...
but I can't read them ... at this very moment ;-( ... so I call
for actually almost 30 years of saved messages ;-)

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM AIX/370, running
on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM ;-)

Speaking of AIX/370, is it around anywhere, or has it been allowed to
disappear?

(I can't imagine it has any commercial value at this point)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
As it happens I already raised that issue. I'd given anything to try
it out under VM/370 here, or even inside an AWS container.........
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
By the way, "ipgaix.unipg.it" was actually an IBM AIX/370, running
on an IBM mainframe (3090/VEC), virtualized under VM ;-)

Speaking of AIX/370, is it around anywhere, or has it been allowed to
disappear?
(I can't imagine it has any commercial value at this point)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
As it happens I already raised that issue. I'd given anything to try
it out under VM/370 here, or even inside an AWS container.........
-----

When I setup AIX/370, in the spring/summer of 1991,
I would have never pictured it may have become a
piece of "history" 27 years later.

It was actually, in my mind, at that time, a "poor men"
replacement of AIX/6000, which I had already used for
a couple of years. And we actually switched to RISC/6000
and AIX/6000 after few years, while AIX/370, already up
and running (I don't remember if in an 8 or 16Mb VM virtual
machine) was basically keeping up the Usenet News Group
feed.

Our first two RISC/6000, teseo.unipg.it and dedalo.unipg.it,
had something like 64Mb of core memory and were fast as
an hell, compared to AIX/370.

When I left IBM, in 1995, ipgaix faded away from my
horizon and I quit using it, basically because I wasn't
anymore its sysadm.

Otherwise, I would have take personally a backup and
preserved copies, as I always do, before dismissing
it.

The AIX/370 original product tapes was there in 1991,
I had them personally in my hands, as I installed
from the original tapes the system, from scratch,
in an empty virtual machine.

I really hope a copy has survived on tapes. I already
had a round hoping to find the "pieces" of the mainframe,
but for some reason I can't really understand, I didn't
think that looking for the tapes would have been definitely
a simpler solution to recover our data.

I even found support for such a "vintage project"
between our local people, but I stopped when I didn't
find the mainframe where was expected to be.

Let see if tapes at least have survived.

In any case I've to thank the list to have "unlocked"
this path in my mind.

I can't really understand WHY was locked, but thanks
anyway.

A grateful and respecful, Peppe.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
When I setup AIX/370, in the spring/summer of 1991,
I would have never pictured it may have become a
piece of "history" 27 years later.

Nobody ever does, especially in the IBM side of the world where
everything is so much more business-oriented.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Let see if tapes at least have survived.

Yes. Thank you in advance for your efforts.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
In any case I've to thank the list to have "unlocked"
this path in my mind.
I can't really understand WHY was locked, but thanks
anyway.

I believe it is a natural part of human thought process. Especially
now with the great push for "NEW NEW NEW", where anything that's old is
considered to be bad, and anything that's not NEW is considered to be
old. This, of course, is a thought process that is pushed by salesmen,
and, as any logical person can see, it is wrong. But it's still the way
most people think, at least in the automatic "not really considering it
carefully" sense.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


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[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
When I setup AIX/370, in the spring/summer of 1991,
I would have never pictured it may have become a
piece of "history" 27 years later.

Nobody ever does, especially in the IBM side of the world where
everything is so much more business-oriented.

I *hate* to think about how much stuff I’ve “tossed” at various times
in my life that I wish I had now (I filled 2 galords of HW, docs and SW
that was to be scrapped when IBM moved me from Boca Raton, FL
to Austin, TX) and that was only one of several large “purges” that
I went through. :-/

I would *love* to have access to this stuff because I worked on the
PS/2 side of this project while I was at IBM.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Let see if tapes at least have survived.

Yes. Thank you in advance for your efforts.

Me too!

TTFN - Guy

[Giuseppe Vitillaro [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
I can't really understand WHY was locked, but thanks
anyway.

I believe it is a natural part of human thought process. Especially
now with the great push for "NEW NEW NEW", where anything that's old is
considered to be bad, and anything that's not NEW is considered to be
old. This, of course, is a thought process that is pushed by salesmen,
and, as any logical person can see, it is wrong. But it's still the way
most people think, at least in the automatic "not really considering it
carefully" sense.

Yep, you completely right, Dave, but what was "locked"
was not the "recovery path", I already spoke about this
in the list a couple of years ago.

It was locked the "tape path". Damn. I thought only
to recover from the original DASDs, hoping to find
the mainframe in a state which would allow access
to them.

I was hoping to much! Definitely too much.

A box of tapes is definitely something which
has an higher probability to survive to entropy,
especially mainframe tapes, built to last for
decades.

I perfectly understand, at my age, now, how may
be important to preserve "history", an "alive
history", which may be still accessed to learn
from the past.

ITC hadn't not an history 50 years ago.

Now it has one! And have to be preserved!

Will IBM understand too how much important
is to preserve it?

Peppe.

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
It happens I've the bad habit to receive lists by email
and to automatically store all messages (well almost all,

Actually that sounds like a good habit. A local archive is a lot easier to
work with than YahooGroups suboptimal web interface.

Post by Giuseppe Vitillaro ***@vitillaro.org [hercules-390]
Thu Feb 16 16:28:07 2012

My local archive of this list goes back to 2005. Though there are probably
quite a few AWOL messages with YahooGroups neglecting to send messages to me
from time to time.

[Jeroen Baten [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Op 01-05-18 om 08:04 schreef ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
 
But we'd of course lose all of our many years of archived posts.

Not necessarily. It's a website. It can be scraped. It will take some
programming (Python+BeautifullSoup lib comes to mind )and patience. But
it can be done.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
As far as all of the uploaded files that exist in our existing Files
area goes, since any existing member can easily download them, we
COULD transfer them over to our new groups.io group, but it would be a
PITA since there are so many. (But it *could* be done.)
So there's the issues.
A decision has to be made.
And I'm not sure who needs to make it.
Is it a decision that we, the group, make together? (We have over 7000
members!)
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if
so, who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)

Look at the way it works in the Debian community. Who likes to step
forward?
After that an election can be held.
Surely with over 7000 members there should be experienced leaders among
them?

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I have no answers to any of these questions.

Well, it's just my 2 cents.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I just want to get the HELL OFF OF YAHOO as soon as possible.
(I sure as hell hope this post gets through! I see my earlier "test"
posting FINALLY made their way to the group (days and days later!), so
*hopefully* this one will too. We'll see.)

['Bill Turner, WB4ALM' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Quit a few YAHOO groups have already been moved WITH THEIR FILES AND
ARCHIVES to GROUPS.IO
The designer of GROUPS.IO is "the or one of" the original designers of
YAHOO groups.
and has provided the tools neessary to have a successful move...

/s/ Bill Turner, wb4alm

Post by Jeroen Baten ***@i2rs.nl [hercules-390]
Op 01-05-18 om 08:04 schreef ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But we'd of course lose all of our many years of archived posts.

Not necessarily. It's a website. It can be scraped. It will take some
programming (Python+BeautifullSoup lib comes to mind )and patience. But
it can be done.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
As far as all of the uploaded files that exist in our existing Files
area goes, since any existing member can easily download them, we
COULD transfer them over to our new groups.io group, but it would be a
PITA since there are so many. (But it *could* be done.)
So there's the issues.
A decision has to be made.
And I'm not sure who needs to make it.
Is it a decision that we, the group, make together? (We have over 7000
members!)
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if
so, who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)

Look at the way it works in the Debian community. Who likes to step
forward?
After that an election can be held.
Surely with over 7000 members there should be experienced leaders among
them?

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I have no answers to any of these questions.

Well, it's just my 2 cents.

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I just want to get the HELL OFF OF YAHOO as soon as possible.
(I sure as hell hope this post gets through! I see my earlier "test"
posting FINALLY made their way to the group (days and days later!), so
*hopefully* this one will too. We'll see.)

--
____ _ __ | web : www.i2rs.nl
| )|_)(_ | tel : +31 (0)345 - 75 26 28
_|_/_| \__) | Molenwindsingel 46, 4105 HK, Culemborg, the Netherlands

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Or is it a decision just a few select members needs to make? (And if
so, who are those people? Who do we decide makes that decision?)

the decision should be made by the people willing to act as ...
moderators, maintainers, administrators, whatever, ...


the files section should be cleaned up...
no reason to keep logs/dumps/traces longer than the time needed
to analyze the errors


e

[Rahim Azizarab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I am sad to inform you that according to my Google search Jay Maynard passed away in Columbus Ohio after complications from a fall.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

CRAP !!!!!!

Post by Rahim Azizarab ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I am sad to inform you that according to my Google search Jay Maynard
passed away in Columbus Ohio after complications from a fall.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Are you sure ?

Odd...He just posted something 35 minutes ago on Google+....

Please site your source...

Thanks,

--Ivan

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
CRAP !!!!!!

Post by Rahim Azizarab ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I am sad to inform you that according to my Google search Jay Maynard
passed away in Columbus Ohio after complications from a fall.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
I was going to post a "WRONG!" message but Mike beat me to it, and with facts.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
CRAP !!!!!!

Post by Rahim Azizarab ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I am sad to inform you that according to my Google search Jay Maynard
passed away in Columbus Ohio after complications from a fall.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
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Yahoo Groups Links

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/jay-maynard-obituary?pid=188814253&view=guestbook
Wrong guy. Born 1940, living in Ohio, died April 2, 2018

https://twitter.com/tronguy
Right guy. Born 1960, living in Minnesota, posted 12 hours ago.

Post by Rahim Azizarab ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I am sad to inform you that according to my Google search Jay Maynard
passed away in Columbus Ohio after complications from a fall.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

More like it !

Gave me a scare !

Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/jay-maynard-obituary?pid=188814253&view=guestbook
Wrong guy.  Born 1940, living in Ohio, died April 2, 2018
https://twitter.com/tronguy
Right guy.  Born 1960, living in Minnesota, posted 12 hours ago.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I ate'nt dead.

The Jay Maynard in the report is - well, was - a 78-year-old lawyer in Columbus, Ohio. I am none of those things.


I may not be involved in Hercules any more, but I haven't gone anywhere.


Jay

[Vince Coen [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Great - you beat me to it.

Pity that some people do NOT do their research before coming out with
this hog wash!

Vince

Post by ***@conmicro.com [hercules-390]
I ate'nt dead.
The Jay Maynard in the report is - well, was - a 78-year-old lawyer in
Columbus, Ohio. I am none of those things.
I may not be involved in Hercules any more, but I haven't gone anywhere.

[Gregg Levine [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello!
Glad to see you are still with us, Jay, even if as you say your not
involved with Hercules work.

And I agree with the fellow wearing the amazing hat.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by ***@conmicro.com [hercules-390]
I ate'nt dead.
The Jay Maynard in the report is - well, was - a 78-year-old lawyer in
Columbus, Ohio. I am none of those things.
I may not be involved in Hercules any more, but I haven't gone anywhere.
Jay
________________________________
________________________________

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

(CC: direct to Jay)

Post by ***@conmicro.com [hercules-390]
I ate'nt dead.

Well hello there Jay! It's good to see you again!

Post by ***@conmicro.com [hercules-390]
The Jay Maynard in the report is - well, was - a 78-year-old
lawyer in Columbus, Ohio. I am none of those things.
I may not be involved in Hercules any more, but I haven't gone
anywhere.

That's good to know. (The not going anywhere part, not the not being involved in Hercules any more part.)

Would you please do us ALL a *huge* favor please? If you're not going to be involved in Hercules any more, could you please appoint someone else (or preferably *several* someone elses) as owner/moderator of the hercules-390 Yahoo group? Pretty please?

That is of course presuming you're willing to do so. Maybe you still want to be the one and only owner/admin of the group? I don't know. I don't know why you would want to be that way, but hey, it's your right and I can respect that.

We (that is most of the group regulars) are getting sick and tired of Yahoo and want to move the group somewhere else (possibly to groups.io) which requires doing some things that requires owner/administrator access to the hercules-390 Yahoo group. As far as I know you are the only owner/administrator, yes? Or are there other owner/administrators besides you? (And if so, who the heck are they?)

Thanks!

How have you been? Hope things are going well for you! What have you been up to?

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello mr Maynard,

So nice to hear from you. I am a complete Hercules newbie, but an open source veteran.
As an example, I was the one getting ESR to the Netherlands as keynote speaker for the first open source business conference on Linux and open source back in 2001.

it is nice to see you are alive. For some time I actually thought you weren't. Glad to read you are.

Yes, it is clear that you are not involved in Hercules anymore. I understand that.
I even eagerly follow your new project on open source UPS hard/software. Very cool project indeed.

But, there is just one thing that I frequently point out during my talks on Hercules.
It is very easy for newcomers to get lost. Google comes up with hercules-390.org, where the activity currently is on hercules-390.eu. And the Yahoo page footer also mentions hercules-390.org.

Would you be willing to do some minimal maintenance work and appoint a new project leader?

Or, is it possible that you appoint another maintainer for the Yahoo groups management?

And, there's the matter about the hercules-390.org website. I can understand that you are not interested in migrating that to somebody else, but would it be possible to change your main index.html or webserver config to do a relocation to hercules-390.org. Minimal work on your end and hugely beneficial to the Hercules community.

I look forward to your answer on this.

Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello mr Maynard,

So nice to hear from you. I am a complete Hercules newbie, but an open source veteran.
As an example, I was the one getting ESR to the Netherlands as keynote speaker for the first open source business conference on Linux and open source back in 2001.

it is nice to see you are alive. For some time I actually thought you weren't. Glad to read you are.

Yes, it is clear that you are not involved in Hercules anymore. I understand that.
I even eagerly follow your new project on open source UPS hard/software. Very cool project indeed.

But, there is just one thing that I frequently point out during my talks on Hercules.
It is very easy for newcomers to get lost. Google comes up with hercules-390.org, where the activity currently is on hercules-390.eu. And the Yahoo page footer also mentions hercules-390.org.

Would you be willing to do some minimal maintenance work and appoint a new project leader?

Or, is it possible that you appoint another maintainer for the Yahoo groups management?

And, there's the matter about the hercules-390.org website. I can understand that you are not interested in migrating that to somebody else, but would it be possible to change your main index.html or webserver config to do a relocation to hercules-390.org. Minimal work on your end and hugely beneficial to the Hercules community.

I look forward to your answer on this.

Kind regards,
Jeroen Baten