[hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Just curious -> what is this? ...


http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

IBM Series/1. The original poster no longer has it; it is now at an
auction house. (not eBay) I'm considering trying to grab it for the Large
Scale Systems Museum.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
Just curious -> what is this? ...
http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html
http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html

[Stan Saraczewski [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

A very interesting system... spent some years on it. Had three different operating systems available - EDX was like a subset of MVS at the time.

IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

|
|
|
| | |

|

|
|
| |
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia
| |

|

|





From: "***@mac.com [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 10:23 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

  Just curious -> what is this? ...
http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html
#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837 -- #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp #yiv6175948837hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp #yiv6175948837ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp .yiv6175948837ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp .yiv6175948837ad p {margin:0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mkp .yiv6175948837ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ygrp-lc #yiv6175948837hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ygrp-lc .yiv6175948837ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837activity span .yiv6175948837underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 dd.yiv6175948837last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 dd.yiv6175948837last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 dd.yiv6175948837last p span.yiv6175948837yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837file-title a, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837file-title a:active, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837file-title a:hover, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837photo-title a, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837photo-title a:active, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837photo-title a:hover, #yiv6175948837 div.yiv6175948837photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 div#yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6175948837ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6175948837yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv6175948837 o {font-size:0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv6175948837 .yiv6175948837replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv6175948837 input, #yiv6175948837 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv6175948837 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6175948837logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-msg p#yiv6175948837attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-reco #yiv6175948837reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-sponsor #yiv6175948837ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv6175948837 #yiv6175948837ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv6175948837

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

Indeed:

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace
legacy computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to
this document, there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the
operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such
as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and
tanker support aircraft. "This system still uses 8-inch floppy
disks, however the agency plans to update some of the technology
by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems


If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

[Stan Saraczewski [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Amazing. Wonder how many others are still out there ?


From: "''Fish' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:12 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

Indeed:

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace
legacy computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to
this document, there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the
operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such
as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and
tanker support aircraft. "This system still uses 8-inch floppy
disks, however the agency plans to update some of the technology
by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

['Carlos Aguilera Sr' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

The plus side is that they cannot hack S/1 but you would think it should be z/Series at least at this time of age.



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:21 AM
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."





Amazing. Wonder how many others are still out there ?



_____

From: "''Fish' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> >
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:12 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

Indeed:

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace
legacy computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to
this document, there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the
operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such
as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and
tanker support aircraft. "This system still uses 8-inch floppy
disks, however the agency plans to update some of the technology
by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Or a small ARM-based system. There's nowhere near a z/Series' worth
of processing power required for that job.

Besides, the Series/1 wasn't really a member of the mainframe family;
there's no real upgrade path for them that would hold any benefit over
going to something else.

I laughed aloud at some of the uproar caused by the revelation that
there are still Series/1 systems being used by the US Military. Those
machines have fantastic track records for reliability, their users have
solid maintenance practice in place, access to spares, and, most
importantly, the systems do their jobs, and do them well.

There's an assumption that 8" floppies are inherently unreliable
simply because they're old. New 8" media is still being manufactured,
so that's not a problem, and the users (in this case) have enough closet
spares to keep them going for years to come if the original hardware
were to actually fail.

The younger crowd's "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's
old" mentality is great for salesmen everywhere, but it's a dangerous
line of thinking when it comes to critical systems.

Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells
you it is.

-Dave

Post by 'Carlos Aguilera Sr' ***@aol.com [hercules-390]
The plus side is that they cannot hack S/1 but you would think it
should be z/Series at least at this time of age.
*Sent:* Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:21 AM
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."
Amazing. Wonder how many others are still out there ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:12 AM
*Subject:* RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace
legacy computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to
this document, there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the
operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such
as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and
tanker support aircraft. "This system still uses 8-inch floppy
disks, however the agency plans to update some of the technology
by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 January 2017 19:53
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."
Or a small ARM-based system. There's nowhere near a z/Series' worth of
processing power required for that job.
Besides, the Series/1 wasn't really a member of the mainframe family;
there's no real upgrade path for them that would hold any benefit over going
to something else.
I laughed aloud at some of the uproar caused by the revelation that there
are still Series/1 systems being used by the US Military. Those machines
have fantastic track records for reliability, their users have solid maintenance
practice in place, access to spares, and, most importantly, the systems do
their jobs, and do them well.
There's an assumption that 8" floppies are inherently unreliable simply
because they're old. New 8" media is still being manufactured, so that's not a
problem, and the users (in this case) have enough closet spares to keep
them going for years to come if the original hardware were to actually fail.
The younger crowd's "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality
is great for salesmen everywhere, but it's a dangerous line of thinking when
it comes to critical systems.
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells you it is.

Well the Series/1 was obsolete 20 years ago when I last used one.

While 8" disks are still being made, are 8" disk drive heads still being made.
You might have a pile of spares but when did you last test them?
Polarised capacitors degrade when not powered on.
Old lubricant dries out because the more volatile compounds evaporate first.
Rubber drive belts turn to goo.

The number of times when I have been asked to fix something where the last spare drive was installed and now that has failed and there is no backup.

Not saying this is the case here, BUT keeping old kit running reliably is more than having a pile of untested or even tested spares.

Say it "just works" is not really a sensible disaster recovery plan...

-Dave

Dave

Post by 'Carlos Aguilera Sr' ***@aol.com [hercules-390]
The plus side is that they cannot hack S/1 but you would think it
should be z/Series at least at this time of age.
*Sent:* Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:21 AM
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."
Amazing. Wonder how many others are still out there ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
*Sent:* Saturday, January 7, 2017 6:12 AM
*Subject:* RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace legacy
computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to this document,
there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the operational functions
of the United States’ nuclear forces, such as intercontinental
ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and tanker support aircraft.
"This system still uses 8-inch floppy disks, however the agency plans
to update some of the technology by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_
part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells

you it is.
Well the Series/1 was obsolete 20 years ago when I last used one.

"Business obsolete", not necessarily "functionally obsolete".

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
While 8" disks are still being made, are 8" disk drive heads still being made.
You might have a pile of spares but when did you last test them?

I haven't tested them at all; I am not on the maintenance team.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Polarised capacitors degrade when not powered on.
Old lubricant dries out because the more volatile compounds evaporate first.
Rubber drive belts turn to goo.

I don't have access to the records, but I doubt any of the
above-listed components in those Series/1 systems are more than a year old.

Equating "old" with "unmaintained", or "unmaintainable", is also
fallacious. IBM has an entire division set up to provide support to
federal government customers. They don't advertise the services they
sell on their website.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The number of times when I have been asked to fix something where the
last spare drive was installed and now that has failed and there is no
backup.
Not saying this is the case here, BUT keeping old kit running reliably
is more than having a pile of untested or even tested spares.
Say it "just works" is not really a sensible disaster recovery plan...

Argue with the US Air Force about that. I have met some of the
maintenance team for those systems; I assure you, as a working engineer,
these guys know what they're doing in the guts of their systems. The
requirements of nuclear weapons systems are a bit different from the
world of commercial datacenters, which necessitates a different
approach, even though it's popular to laugh at technology that isn't
cutting edge anymore.

-Dave

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

I’m enjoying the discussion ... but feel obliged to point out that a B52 engine fell off in flight a couple weeks back.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:10 PM
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

 

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells

you it is.
Well the Series/1 was obsolete 20 years ago when I last used one.

"Business obsolete", not necessarily "functionally obsolete".

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
While 8" disks are still being made, are 8" disk drive heads still being made.
You might have a pile of spares but when did you last test them?

I haven't tested them at all; I am not on the maintenance team.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Polarised capacitors degrade when not powered on.
Old lubricant dries out because the more volatile compounds evaporate first.
Rubber drive belts turn to goo.

I don't have access to the records, but I doubt any of the
above-listed components in those Series/1 systems are more than a year old.

Equating "old" with "unmaintained", or "unmaintainable", is also
fallacious. IBM has an entire division set up to provide support to
federal government customers. They don't advertise the services they
sell on their website.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The number of times when I have been asked to fix something where the
last spare drive was installed and now that has failed and there is no
backup.
Not saying this is the case here, BUT keeping old kit running reliably
is more than having a pile of untested or even tested spares.
Say it "just works" is not really a sensible disaster recovery plan...

Argue with the US Air Force about that. I have met some of the
maintenance team for those systems; I assure you, as a working engineer,
these guys know what they're doing in the guts of their systems. The
requirements of nuclear weapons systems are a bit different from the
world of commercial datacenters, which necessitates a different
approach, even though it's popular to laugh at technology that isn't
cutting edge anymore.

-Dave

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 January 2017 22:22
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."
I’m enjoying the discussion ... but feel obliged to point out that a B52 engine
fell off in flight a couple weeks back.

Plenty of redundancy there, should be no problem. Of course there may be other collateral damage...

Dave W
EA7KAE

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
I’m enjoying the discussion ... but feel obliged to point out that a

B52 engine

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
fell off in flight a couple weeks back.

Plenty of redundancy there, should be no problem. Of course there may be
other collateral damage...

Heh. *THUD*

-Dave

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

A 7 year old DC-10 dropped and engine in Chicago in 1979.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
I’m enjoying the discussion ... but feel obliged to point out that a B52 engine fell off in flight a couple weeks back.
Sent from my Windows 10 phone
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells

you it is.
Well the Series/1 was obsolete 20 years ago when I last used one.

"Business obsolete", not necessarily "functionally obsolete".

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
While 8" disks are still being made, are 8" disk drive heads still being made.
You might have a pile of spares but when did you last test them?

I haven't tested them at all; I am not on the maintenance team.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Polarised capacitors degrade when not powered on.
Old lubricant dries out because the more volatile compounds evaporate first.
Rubber drive belts turn to goo.

I don't have access to the records, but I doubt any of the
above-listed components in those Series/1 systems are more than a year old.
Equating "old" with "unmaintained", or "unmaintainable", is also
fallacious. IBM has an entire division set up to provide support to
federal government customers. They don't advertise the services they
sell on their website.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The number of times when I have been asked to fix something where the
last spare drive was installed and now that has failed and there is no
backup.
Not saying this is the case here, BUT keeping old kit running reliably
is more than having a pile of untested or even tested spares.
Say it "just works" is not really a sensible disaster recovery plan...

Argue with the US Air Force about that. I have met some of the
maintenance team for those systems; I assure you, as a working engineer,
these guys know what they're doing in the guts of their systems. The
requirements of nuclear weapons systems are a bit different from the
world of commercial datacenters, which necessitates a different
approach, even though it's popular to laugh at technology that isn't
cutting edge anymore.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Beth [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A 7 year old DC-10 dropped and engine in Chicago in 1979.

If memory serves, that was due to the airline cutting a corner on the
maintenance procedure, removing the engine+pylon from the wing instead
of the engine from the pylon.

[Mike Schwab [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

The Sioux City crash also hurt. But all the non-Boeing airplane
manufacturers were already lagging.

Hello!
It does. It also doomed that family of aircraft, until being bought by
McDonnell. (The company behind it.) However they make almost excellent
tankers.
Now what's that strange noise coming from a building in the Pittsburgh area?.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

Post by Beth ***@media.mit.edu [hercules-390]

Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A 7 year old DC-10 dropped and engine in Chicago in 1979.

If memory serves, that was due to the airline cutting a corner on the
maintenance procedure, removing the engine+pylon from the wing instead
of the engine from the pylon.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 January 2017 22:10
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."
390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman tells

you it is.
Well the Series/1 was obsolete 20 years ago when I last used one.

"Business obsolete", not necessarily "functionally obsolete".

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
While 8" disks are still being made, are 8" disk drive heads still being made.
You might have a pile of spares but when did you last test them?

I haven't tested them at all; I am not on the maintenance team.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Polarised capacitors degrade when not powered on.
Old lubricant dries out because the more volatile compounds evaporate first.
Rubber drive belts turn to goo.

I don't have access to the records, but I doubt any of the above-listed
components in those Series/1 systems are more than a year old.
Equating "old" with "unmaintained", or "unmaintainable", is also fallacious.
IBM has an entire division set up to provide support to federal government
customers. They don't advertise the services they sell on their website.

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The number of times when I have been asked to fix something where the
last spare drive was installed and now that has failed and there is no
backup.
Not saying this is the case here, BUT keeping old kit running reliably
is more than having a pile of untested or even tested spares.
Say it "just works" is not really a sensible disaster recovery plan...

Argue with the US Air Force about that. I have met some of the
maintenance team for those systems; I assure you, as a working engineer,
these guys know what they're doing in the guts of their systems. The
requirements of nuclear weapons systems are a bit different from the world
of commercial datacenters, which necessitates a different approach, even
though it's popular to laugh at technology that isn't cutting edge anymore.

I wasn't laughing, what I was saying is that keeping something that old requires concentrated effort, and you don't seem to disagree.
As you say for certain areas, such as Nuclear Industry, Avionics, Air Traffic Control it does not make sense to re-certify and re-qualify equipment.
For other areas, such as computer based trading, weather forecasting, and code breaking you will be at a competitive disadvantage if you don't have the latest and greatest number cruncher.

But for MOST businesses, who don't have a dedicated team from IBM, some kind of "middle of the road" is could be optimal.
The latest and greatest will be expensive, but the risks of staying on older technology, which may be reliable now, but which may cause a huge un-planned disruption when it fails, may also be un-acceptable.
The military may well be able to get IBM to fix 8" floppy drives but I wouldn't like to run a business based on that technology, and for many its fairly easy to replace that with commodity floppy emulators...

It Is not really about technology, its about looking at the options and assessing the risks and weaknesses of each option, and keeping things under review.

-Dave

Dave
P.S. From what I remember the drive in a 3274 runs continually, or it did in early models.

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
Argue with the US Air Force about that. I have met some of the
maintenance team for those systems; I assure you, as a working engineer,
these guys know what they're doing in the guts of their systems. The
requirements of nuclear weapons systems are a bit different from the world
of commercial datacenters, which necessitates a different approach, even
though it's popular to laugh at technology that isn't cutting edge anymore.

I wasn't laughing, what I was saying is that keeping something that old
requires concentrated effort, and you don't seem to disagree.

Oh no, I don't disagree at all. I have 200+ vintage computers here,
many of which are older than the Series/1. They require a good bit of
upkeep.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
As you say for certain areas, such as Nuclear Industry, Avionics, Air
Traffic Control it does not make sense to re-certify and re-qualify
equipment.
For other areas, such as computer based trading, weather forecasting,
and code breaking you will be at a competitive disadvantage if you don't
have the latest and greatest number cruncher.

Very much so. The US military's Series/1 installations are primarily
communication, coordination, and logging roles, and require almost no CPU.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But for MOST businesses, who don't have a dedicated team from IBM, some
kind of "middle of the road" is could be optimal.
The latest and greatest will be expensive, but the risks of staying on
older technology, which may be reliable now, but which may cause a huge
un-planned disruption when it fails, may also be un-acceptable.
The military may well be able to get IBM to fix 8" floppy drives but I
wouldn't like to run a business based on that technology, and for many
its fairly easy to replace that with commodity floppy emulators...

There are SSD-based hard drive emulators in place in those systems,
presumably due to failures. The focus on floppy disks in the original
article that hit the media about the Series/1s still being in use seemed
primarily about poking fun at them, but the floppies are used for
occasional maintenance and that's about it.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
It Is not really about technology, its about looking at the options and
assessing the risks and weaknesses of each option, and keeping things
under review.

Sure. And I'm not certain that I myself would have made the decision
to keep those systems installed...but I have to assume the personnel who
did, did so in an informed manner with a base of experience and
procedural knowledge that I lack. This is one of the (very) few (and
shrinking) areas in which I'd trust gov't personnel to actually do
something right. The article was about getting click traffic, and was
likely written by a very trendy twenty-something with a weird hairdo who
thinks anything older than about mid-2016 is ancient and therefore
unable to do its job.

-Dave

['\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Dave McGuire wrote:

[...]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The younger crowd's "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not
new, it's old" mentality is great for salesmen everywhere,
but it's a dangerous line of thinking when it comes to critical
systems.
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman
tells you it is.

So *VERY* true...

While such mentality is especially evident in the high-tech world, the same mentality appears to be pervasive in the non-high-tech consumer world too: e.g. new packaging replacing old packaging simply because it's different, not necessarily because better. It seems periodically slapping a "New and Improved!" on their label and advertisements is the only thing that's important to them.

The sad thing is the typical consumer doesn't even notice or care thus completing the entire self-reinforcing feedback loop of "Out with the old. In with the new."

Or... Maybe I'm just getting old and grouchy. :)

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

On 01/07/2017 04:22 PM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
The younger crowd's "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not
new, it's old" mentality is great for salesmen everywhere,
but it's a dangerous line of thinking when it comes to critical
systems.
Replace it when it's *actually* obsolete...not when a salesman
tells you it is.

So *VERY* true...
While such mentality is especially evident in the high-tech world, the
same mentality appears to be pervasive in the non-high-tech consumer
world too: e.g. new packaging replacing old packaging simply because
it's different, not necessarily because better. It seems periodically
slapping a "New and Improved!" on their label and advertisements is the
only thing that's important to them.
The sad thing is the typical consumer doesn't even notice or care thus
completing the entire self-reinforcing feedback loop of "Out with the
old. In with the new."
Or... Maybe I'm just getting old and grouchy. :)

Yes and no. It means you aren't a part of the generation that was
trained to be perfect consumers.

-Dave

[Ken Smyth [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Circa 1980 many Bell local phone companies used banks of these Series/1 systems, networked over point-to-point lines, for the 411 directory assistance. DAS/C was the turnkey package from IBM. The directory database was updated daily on the MVS mainframe and written to 3340 disk. The 70mB 3348 "data modules" were then physically moved to 3340 drives attached to the Series/1 during the overnight shift. The 3348 module was a strange "disk pack" in that in contained both the disk and the head/actuator assemblies.

At the remote 411 Directory Assistance office multiple Series/1s acting as terminal servers attached via "high speed" 50 or 56kb links back to the Series/1s at the data center. This was prior to the IP era, each Series/1 supported multiple lines with routing and load balancing built in to the application.

----- Original Message -----

From: "''Fish' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] "Enquiring minds want to know..."

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
A very interesting system...

[...]

Post by Stan Saraczewski ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1>
IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia

Indeed:

"In May 2016 the United States Government Accountability Office
released a document that covered the need to upgrade or replace
legacy computer systems within Federal Agencies. According to
this document, there is still a Series/1 that "Coordinates the
operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such
as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and
tanker support aircraft. "This system still uses 8-inch floppy
disks, however the agency plans to update some of the technology
by the end of the 2017 fiscal year."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Series/1#Series.2F1_still_in_use_as_part_of_U.S._nuclear_weapon_command_and_control_systems

If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi,

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Very true. But how long before those 8-inch floppy disks 'break' (become unusable/unreadable) ?


- Maarten

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Very true. But how long before those 8-inch floppy disks 'break' (become
unusable/unreadable) ?

They last about five years with fairly heavy use, or 10-12 in light
use. This is a light-use application. Disks are rotated out when
they're much younger than that, and replaced with new ones of recent
manufacture. The notion that the use of 8" floppies will make a system
unreliable simply because they've been largely supplanted by newer
technologies in the mainstream consumer market is fallacious.

-Dave

[Maarten Hoes [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi,

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]

Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Very true. But how long before those 8-inch floppy disks 'break' (become
unusable/unreadable) ?

They last about five years with fairly heavy use, or 10-12 in light
use. This is a light-use application. Disks are rotated out when
they're much younger than that, and replaced with new ones of recent
manufacture. The notion that the use of 8" floppies will make a system
unreliable simply because they've been largely supplanted by newer
technologies in the mainstream consumer market is fallacious.
-Dave

I'm not saying 8" floppies are unreliable "because it's old technology" or
has been "supplanted by newer technologies". I just never imagined :

a) existing disks lasting that long.
b) new disks still being manufactured today, making them replaceable.


Guess I was wrong.


- Maarten

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]

Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Very true. But how long before those 8-inch floppy disks 'break' (become
unusable/unreadable) ?

They last about five years with fairly heavy use, or 10-12 in light
use. This is a light-use application. Disks are rotated out when
they're much younger than that, and replaced with new ones of recent
manufacture. The notion that the use of 8" floppies will make a system
unreliable simply because they've been largely supplanted by newer
technologies in the mainstream consumer market is fallacious.
I'm not saying 8" floppies are unreliable "because it's old technology"
a) existing disks lasting that long.
b) new disks still being manufactured today, making them replaceable.
Guess I was wrong.

They are currently being made by Athana International in California.
Their products are not cheap, but they are of good quality, and the
company offers good customer service. (I do not work for them, I am
just a customer)

This clearly will not last forever, but for the time being the supply
chains are solid.

-Dave

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

The notion that the use of 8" floppies will make a system unreliable
simply because they've been largely supplanted by newer technologies in
the mainstream consumer market is fallacious.

Where I work the last devices we had that used 8" floppies were 3274s. It
wasn't all that long ago that we retired the last ones we had in use. We
had to replace worn out disks occasionally, but not as often as one might
think.

[Dave McGuire [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

The notion that the use of 8" floppies will make a system unreliable
simply because they've been largely supplanted by newer technologies in
the mainstream consumer market is fallacious.

Where I work the last devices we had that used 8" floppies were 3274s. It
wasn't all that long ago that we retired the last ones we had in use. We
had to replace worn out disks occasionally, but not as often as one might
think.

Nice, I got a 3274 just recently. I've not yet done anything with it.
If the way they work is anything like the 3174 family, they very rarely
hit those disks; I'd think media should last for a very long time in
that role.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Community email addresses:
Post message: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com
List owner: hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com

Files and archives at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390

Get the latest version of Hercules from:
http://www.hercules-390.org


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com
hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

[Dave Wade [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

A couple of Series/1 machines.

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
Just curious -> what is this? ...
http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html

[Guy Sotomayor Jr [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

It’s an IBM Series/1 minicomputer.

TTFN - Guy

Post by ***@mac.com [hercules-390]
Just curious -> what is this? ...
http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html <http://nwct.craigslist.org/sys/5947941175.html>