Discussion:
A Hercules RFC about RJE
Bob Flanders (COX)
2004-02-20 16:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Dutch...



I have been interested in getting an RJE station working using the IBM1130
emulator from www.ibm1130.org <http://www.ibm1130.org/> .



We have pretty much everything needed to do this except time.



The source is available in HRPT1130 member of (HASPLIB?)



Most of the work would be getting the BiSync adapter emulation for the 1130
to hook up to tcp/ip.



As soon as my lottery number comes up, I will probably get on this task
pronto.



-- Bob



_____

From: ceo1944 [mailto:dutch-aB5lUjTen/u7mSJZeJ5YTQC/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:14 AM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] A Hercules RFC about RJE
MRJE - This is also referred to as "Hasp RJE". It's more
.
and 1130.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ceo1944
2004-02-20 16:14:22 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
somitcw
2004-02-21 03:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by ceo1944
A Hercules RFC: The status of Remote Job Entry
options under Hercules.
Since Ivan Warren so kindly implemented the 2703
Bisync emulation, I've been spending some time
investigating the various RJE options we have
with Hercules under the "vintage" operating
systems DOS, OS/360, DOS/VS, VM/370, OS/VS1, and
MVS. I have very little real life experience
with mainframe bisync communications, and none
at all with RJE in any form. Nor do I have
any manuals, beyond the basic description of
the bisync protocol and the 2780 RJE terminal
available at www.bitsavers.org/ibm/datacomm.
What I know comes from reading source code and
experimenting. Things I say here could well
be wrong, although I think them to be true and
am pretty sure of my information at this point.
Please, anyone who can correct anything, or
who could provide any further information
(particularly manuals!) contact me.
Why bother with RJE at all? After all, we
already have several options for getting JCL
to the various OSes under Hercules, all
acceptably easy. But reading the output is
less pleasant, all we generally get is a
simulated printout in a disk file. That's
Why not view listings while they are on SPOOL?
If you store in a disk file, store as RECFM=VB
and truncate trailing blanks. You can also use
Hercules printer support to store as a PC file,
but the listing is converted to ASCII.
Post by ceo1944
better than wasting the tons of paper we used
to waste in the real world, but it's a bit
clumsy. But the real reason for getting RJE
to work isn't practical, it's mainly to learn,
to preserve this part of computer history,
and to have geek fun. If the ultimate result
is a pleasant way to submit jobs and recieve
the results so much the better.
Background information.
RJE is a generic term for the various methods
of submitting batch jobs (generally JCL) from
remote stations, over a bisync line, to a host
operating system. RJE provides not only for
sending jobs, but for receiving the printed
(or punched) output. It's not an interactive
process like using a 3270 terminal. There are
in fact three main types of Remote Job Entry.
I'll describe each one briefly and relate it
generally to its availability to us on Hercules.
RJE - This is the "original", vanilla method.
Its first implementation was announced with the
first 360 mainframes. That implementation was
2780 Data Entry Terminal. This is the common
baseline for IBM mainframe RJE. Almost every
IBM mainframe OS provides for connecting to a
2780 or 3780 RJE station. 3780 is just a
slightly more capable elaboration or 2780
protocol and is now the most commonly used in
th real world. In fact this became a de facto
method of data exchange in the business and
financial world, and is still, in the 21th
century, used for EDI (Electronic Data
Interchange). 2780/3780 RJE is a simple
protocol that provides for half-duplex (one
Do you mean that the console wouldn't
work if the card reader or printer was
running or do you mean that Bisync RVI was
broken? If an SNA RJE workstation like a
3777, did it run full-duplex?
Post by ceo1944
direction at a time) sending of "card decks"
to the host, and the reception of "printed
output" and "punched cards" from the host.
I have verified that OS/360, DOS/VS, OS/VS1,
VM/370, and MVS all have options to configure
bisync lines to act as hosts to 2780/3780 RJE
stations. DOS/360 almost certainly does also
but I haven't verified this.
MRJE - This is also referred to as "Hasp RJE".
It's more sophisticated than plain RJE, in
that it provides for interleaved streams of
data to and from up to 7 readers, printers,
and punches all at the same time. It also
provides for special control records,
messages, and commands to be exchanged
between the station and host. MRJE stands
for Multileaving Remote Job Entry. It is NOT
compatible with 2780/3780 protocol (I don't
think. Could it be?). Among our operating
systems, only VM/370, OS/VS1, and MVS support
MRJE. If we get a version of HASP running
under OS/360, we can add it to the list also.
We also have have some options on the station
end. VM/370 RSCS will act as a station, and
also under MVS there are some assembler
programs to produce standalone JES2/HASP
workstation programs for the System/360,
System/3, and 1130.
NJE - Network Job Entry. This is the modern
form of RJE, much to be preferred. However,
it requires SNA. Of our operating systems,
only DOS/VS seems to have any code that could
support NJE. However, at the moment, we don't
emulate the hardware to support it. SNA won't
work over bisync, only SDLC. So, NJE is out
as an option for our OSes until we do some
serious work. As far as I can see, even if
we had an SDLC emulation, VM/370 and MVS 3.8
(not to mention the old OS/360) don't have
any software support for NJE. I could be
wrong about MVS 3.8. I hope so. I'm sure
about VM/370 R6.
The status of Hercules-based RJE as I know
it at the moment.
First, it's necessary to remember that RJE
isn't a peer to peer idea. There is always
a station (the slave) and a host (the
master). Nor is it a generic file exchange
system, although it can be sometimes used
as such (particularly in VM/370 RSCS where
it can be used to simply exchange data
files between machines across the link).
Plain 2780/3780 RJE - We have a plethora
of hosts, and no stations.
Many masters (OS/360, DOS/VS, MVS, VM/370),
but no slaves. There are many commercial
products that emulate a 3780, but they all
cost money, and they are all designed to do
so over real bisync hardware.
I long thought that the DMTNPT driver in
VM/370 could be a host or a station, but
that was wishful thinking. In fact, it's
only a host. The only way we'll ever use
plain RJE with Hercules is to write our
own 3780 emulator that connects to the
TCP/IP 2703 device on a hercules mainframe.
MJRE - This is the version of RJE we can
actually play with using the tools we have.
The DMTSML driver with VM/370 RSCS can be
either a host or a station. This allows
two RSCS systems to connect to one another.
The limitation of this is that one is a
station and the other the host. Files will
flowly nicely up to the host and be routed
to whatever VM user specified by the sender,
but I don't know how to route files back in
the other direction over the same link.
Files sent back to the station side seem
to wind up on the station's system printer
or system punch. However, flexible
bidirectional file exchange CAN be set up
by using two lines between the two VM/370
systems, so each can play the host role on
one and the slave role on the other.
Acting as a station, VM/370 *should*
(I have not yet accomplished this due to
the difficulty and lack of docs on the MVS
end) be able to submit jobs to a JES2 RJE
line under MVS 3.8. It should also be
possible to submit jobs to OS/VS1 RES (its
implementation of MRJE) from RSCS. Another
option is to punch out the standalone card
deck that's generated when you assemble
HRTPS360 in SYS1.HASPSRC under MVS. I have
configured and assembled this but haven't
yet run it. You need to change the
configuration because the default is to run
on a model 20. You can change this to a
model 30 for hercules. You'll also need
to change some of the default unit record
equipment, and probably the default 2703
device address.
A sample is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/3412
A change to bypass a Hercules problem is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/3417
Post by ceo1944
NJE - I won't say it can't be done. But, we'll
need an SDLC emulation similar to the 2703 we
have now, and we'll need some form of station
emulator. Since VM/370 doesn't have an SDLC/NJE
line driver, there'll be a steep climb to achieve
NJE. And so far as I know, all we'd get is the
ability to NJE to DOS/VS. Not all that attractive,
unless we find NJE code somewhere in MVS 3.8.
That would make the work necessary to get NJE up
more attractive. Another option is writing a
VM/370 RSCS line driver. Given the size and
complexity of the two current (easier than NJE)
line drivers, this is far from a weekend project.
I don't believe that there is any connection
between NJE and SDLC. Many BITNET nodes were
not IBM machines. Many other BITNET nodes were
old VM systems. I doubt that they wrote SNA
and SDLC to run NJE. There were thousands.
Post by ceo1944
Bottom line.
My current plan is to write a simple Linux
command-line 3780 emulator, and test it with
DOS/VS, OS/360, MV/370, and MVS. When that's
done I'll upload it to the Hercules-390 group
files section. No timetable promised :) But
hopefully soon.
Following that, it should be possible to
write a Windows GUI 3780 emulator that could
make job submission to any Hercules based
mainframe OS really nice. You could load and
save card decks, or edit them in a window,
submit them with the click of a button, and
see the results appear in your output window
automagically without needing to sort through
output from other unrelated jobs. You could
physically print the output on your PC
printer, save it, or just throw it away.
This is the ultimate "practical" goal of all
this. There's no reason why this emulator
couldn't be expanded to support MRJE also.
Dutch
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Alex deVries
2004-02-21 02:48:39 UTC
Permalink
A friend of mine "who works at IBM" is running VM 4.4 on Hercules.
Linux guests running on VM 4.4 (and I guess later) can connect to FCP
connected storage devices.

Is there a way for Hercules to emulate this SCSI support?

BTW, the stability of Hercules is simply amazing. Well done.

- A
--
Alex deVries
Principal Architect, One Fish Two


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ceo1944
2004-02-21 15:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by somitcw
Why not view listings while they are on SPOOL?
If you store in a disk file, store as RECFM=VB
and truncate trailing blanks. You can also use
Hercules printer support to store as a PC file,
but the listing is converted to ASCII.
Thats a good idea...and would work fine for OS-based systems, but
what about DOS/360 and DOS/VS? OR am I misunderstanding you? When
using MVS I just submit jobs and look at output easily without
leaving the MVS environment. It's the others that don't have this
nice facility that I'd like to give it to via RJE.
Post by somitcw
Do you mean that the console wouldn't
work if the card reader or printer was
running or do you mean that Bisync RVI was
broken? If an SNA RJE workstation like a
3777, did it run full-duplex?
My statement was based on an admittedly incomplete understanding
of the DMTNPT driver in RSCS. There's some general docs on the 2780
at bitsavers.org. I'll have a look now, that should answer whether
the machine could send cards at the same time as it's receiving a
printout.
I'm sure from looking at the DMTSML driver that MRJE is full-
duplex in both directions. Don't know about 3777, no code that I
have access to supports it. All I know is what the assembler code
in the RSCS drivers can tell me. DMTNPT has support for 3770, 3780,
2770, and 2780. I have no docs! Nor am I an assembler expert, I'm
basing a lot of this on the comments in the code.
Post by somitcw
I don't believe that there is any connection
between NJE and SDLC. Many BITNET nodes were
not IBM machines. Many other BITNET nodes were
old VM systems. I doubt that they wrote SNA
and SDLC to run NJE. There were thousands.
This is great news. One less thing to worry about in getting NJE
to work if it'll work over bisync. I can verify this pretty quick
by looking closer at the DOS/VS code to see if its NJE works over
bisync. All we need to do is figure out the NJE protocol. It may
even be documented in detail somewhere on the net. I think I saw it
several times while fruitlessly looking for....<gasp> <choke>

<RANT>
I have googled until my eyes are crossed looking for
specifications or even a writeup on the 2780/3780/RJE protocol.
I'm not talking bisync, there's ample docs on that. I'm talking how
the 3780 et al uses bisync to implement RJE. There are DOZENS of
commercial products out there from all kinds of companies, so we
know this is not a secret. But no one has ever, so far as I can
tell, done any open-source or public domain implementation, and no
one has put up the spec on the net anywhere. At least I can't find
it. I've even seached thru the TOPS-10 TOPS-20 software archives in
the hope of finding DEC's implementation in source. NO luck.
I'm reduced, once again, to the agonizing prospect of writing an
emulator that does whatever is necessary to talk to a black box,
i.e., the RSCS and DOS/VS RJE host code; without really
understanding the protocol.
Grrr...could anyone help? Any tidbits would be helpful. Just
point me to them if you know of any. I *can* figure it out, but
it'll go much much faster if I have an understanding of how it's
supposed to work before I start coding. It's hard to even plan the
program at this point.
</RANT>

Dutch
somitcw
2004-02-21 18:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ceo1944
Post by somitcw
Why not view listings while they are on SPOOL?
If you store in a disk file, store as RECFM=VB
and truncate trailing blanks. You can also use
Hercules printer support to store as a PC file,
but the listing is converted to ASCII.
Thats a good idea...and would work fine for
OS-based systems, but what about DOS/360 and
DOS/VS? OR am I misunderstanding you? When
using MVS I just submit jobs and look at output
easily without leaving the MVS environment.
It's the others that don't have this nice
facility that I'd like to give it to via RJE.
Either write some SPOOL browse program,
find an old one, or write SYSLST to a disk
data set and write a disk data set browse
program. You can also share disks wirh MVS.
Post by ceo1944
Post by somitcw
Do you mean that the console wouldn't
work if the card reader or printer was
running or do you mean that Bisync RVI was
broken? If an SNA RJE workstation like a
3777, did it run full-duplex?
My statement was based on an admittedly
incomplete understanding of the DMTNPT
driver in RSCS. There's some general docs
on the 2780 at bitsavers.org. I'll have a
look now, that should answer whether the
machine could send cards at the same time
as it's receiving a printout.
Half-duplex or full-duplex can both
refer to bisync line protocol and a RJE
protocol.
Post by ceo1944
I'm sure from looking at the DMTSML driver
that MRJE is full-duplex in both directions.
Don't know about 3777, no code that I have
access to supports it. All I know is what
the assembler code in the RSCS drivers can
tell me. DMTNPT has support for 3770, 3780,
2770, and 2780. I have no docs! Nor am I
an assembler expert, I'm basing a lot of
this on the comments in the code.
Post by somitcw
I don't believe that there is any connection
between NJE and SDLC. Many BITNET nodes were
not IBM machines. Many other BITNET nodes were
old VM systems. I doubt that they wrote SNA
and SDLC to run NJE. There were thousands.
This is great news. One less thing to worry
about in getting NJE to work if it'll work over
bisync. I can verify this pretty quick by
looking closer at the DOS/VS code to see if its
NJE works over bisync. All we need to do is
figure out the NJE protocol. It may even be
documented in detail somewhere on the net.
I think I saw it several times while fruitlessly
looking for....<gasp> <choke>
Yahoo search for NJE,formats gives three
hits including:

http://www.ironrake.com/VSE/pdf/iea1m503.pdf
and
http://www-
1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/zseries/os/vse/support/power/netexamp.txt

There may also be some old BITNet code,
JNet code, DEC code available?
The TCP/IP NJE & Printing Listserv still exist:
http://listserv.unb.ca/archives/mvslpd-l.html
Post by ceo1944
<RANT>
I have googled until my eyes are crossed
looking for specifications or even a writeup
on the 2780/3780/RJE protocol. I'm not talking
bisync, there's ample docs on that. I'm talking
how the 3780 et al uses bisync to implement RJE.
There are DOZENS of commercial products out
there from all kinds of companies, so we know
this is not a secret. But no one has ever, so
far as I can tell, done any open-source or
public domain implementation, and no one has
put up the spec on the net anywhere. At least
I can't find it. I've even seached thru the
TOPS-10 TOPS-20 software archives in the hope
of finding DEC's implementation in source.
NO luck.
I'm reduced, once again, to the agonizing
prospect of writing an emulator that does
whatever is necessary to talk to a black box,
i.e., the RSCS and DOS/VS RJE host code;
without really understanding the protocol.
Grrr...could anyone help? Any tidbits would
be helpful. Just point me to them if you know
of any. I *can* figure it out, but it'll go
much much faster if I have an understanding
of how it's supposed to work before I start
coding. It's hard to even plan the program
at this point.
</RANT>
Dutch
You should have JES2, JES3, and other
source available. The MRJE workstation
source is also available. Some IBM
documentation is online, like:
http://www.vm.ibm.com/pubs/pdf/dmtb3a00.pdf



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Scott Vetter
2004-02-20 17:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Working on getting the JES2 RJE function working though it is not the
1130 version rather the 370/30 version. Got to get the IPL text worked
out for this as either the IPL text is wrong or hercules is.

Scott
Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
Dutch...
I have been interested in getting an RJE station working using the IBM1130
emulator from www.ibm1130.org <http://www.ibm1130.org/> .
We have pretty much everything needed to do this except time.
The source is available in HRPT1130 member of (HASPLIB?)
Most of the work would be getting the BiSync adapter emulation for the 1130
to hook up to tcp/ip.
As soon as my lottery number comes up, I will probably get on this task
pronto.
-- Bob
_____
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [hercules-390] A Hercules RFC about RJE
MRJE - This is also referred to as "Hasp RJE". It's more
.
and 1130.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Yahoo! Groups Links
peter_flass-/
2004-02-20 17:30:37 UTC
Permalink
/30 or /20? There was a standalone MRJE for the /20. That might
explain your problem...
Post by Scott Vetter
Working on getting the JES2 RJE function working though it is not the
1130 version rather the 370/30 version. Got to get the IPL text worked
out for this as either the IPL text is wrong or hercules is.
Scott
Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
Dutch...
I have been interested in getting an RJE station working using the IBM1130
emulator from www.ibm1130.org <http://www.ibm1130.org/> .
We have pretty much everything needed to do this except time.
The source is available in HRPT1130 member of (HASPLIB?)
Most of the work would be getting the BiSync adapter emulation for the 1130
to hook up to tcp/ip.
As soon as my lottery number comes up, I will probably get on this task
pronto.
-- Bob
_____
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [hercules-390] A Hercules RFC about RJE
MRJE - This is also referred to as "Hasp RJE". It's more
.
and 1130.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
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somitcw
2004-02-20 18:46:17 UTC
Permalink
The 360/20 will not run on Hercules. Base registers
were different. Some other differences.

The S/360 code should not be a problem after a patch
and sign on, blank, or other card image added after the
IPL deck.
Post by peter_flass-/
/30 or /20? There was a standalone MRJE for the /20.
That might explain your problem...
Post by Scott Vetter
Working on getting the JES2 RJE function working
though it is not the 1130 version rather the 370/30
version. Got to get the IPL text worked out for
this as either the IPL text is wrong or hercules is.
Scott
Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
Dutch...
I have been interested in getting an RJE station
working using the IBM1130 emulator from
www.ibm1130.org <http://www.ibm1130.org/> .
We have pretty much everything needed to do
this except time.
The source is available in HRPT1130 member of
(HASPLIB?)
Most of the work would be getting the BiSync
adapter emulation for the 1130 to hook up to
tcp/ip.
As soon as my lottery number comes up, I will
probably get on this task pronto.
-- Bob
_____
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: [hercules-390] A Hercules RFC about RJE
MRJE - This is also referred to as "Hasp RJE".
It's more and 1130.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Yahoo! Groups Links
ceo1944
2004-02-20 19:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
I have been interested in getting an RJE station working using the
IBM1130
Post by Bob Flanders (COX)
emulator from www.ibm1130.org <http://www.ibm1130.org/> .
Along those same lines, I assembled and punched the System/3 RJE
program from Hasp, and it does IPL and run on the System/3 Mod 10
emulator I wrote for the simh project (simh.trailing-edge.com). It
runs, that is, until it sees the non-existent BSCA adapter. I've
been eyeing that code for some time, trying to work up the energy to
write BSCA emulation compatible with Hercules 2703.

Right now, the idea of doing the 3780 sounds so cool I'm putting
that way ahead of System/3 BSCA. But I'll get to it. One year.

Dutch
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