[hercules-390] Simple setup

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine. This took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.


Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup
on my Windows machine. This took only
a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ?
I am assuming just the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.

I'm not sure what you mean by "basic OS".

The OS that has the most support in these
groups is TK4-. It's not "basic", it's the biggest
of the free operating systems - MVS 3.8j.

If you genuinely want a "basic OS" as in
it doesn't have very much code, PDOS/370
would be a contender, but it is so basic
that it doesn't actually support 3270
terminals, only 3215.

PDOS/370 comes with source, as does
z/Linux if you wanted that instead.

All the above are free. Commercial sites
use the commercial z/OS instead.

If you want a free IBM operating system
that is smaller than MVS (as delivered
by TK4-) you can get VM/370 sixpack
or DOS/VS.

So pick something from the above and
I'm sure someone will post a link.

BFN. Paul.

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Beware the sixpack editor is a primitive "line oriented" editor

Heh, you might be too young to even know what that is ;)

You might consider Tom Brennan's Vista (nothing to do with MSoft
Vista) 3270 emulator, which allows easy cut / past to the screen,
(edit offline in a *real* editor), then paste into vm edit.

There are also some full screen extensions / editors in the
Hercules-390 vm group.

*(Are the full screen extensions built into sixpack 1.2 now ??)

You can download the Vmr6 sixpack from here
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/vm-370/vm370sixpack-1_2.zip
If you have no "mainframe" experience VM, is IMO the easiest system to
learn.
It has dos/linux like comands in the CMS environment (list, copy, edit)
etc.
You can find manuals for VM / CMS on bitsavers.org

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old IBM
os's
*Well there is sorta in TK4- .. ftp, "

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine.
This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just the
basic installation doesn't have a OS.
Thanks,
Mohan

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Not true. From the memo:-

2. The GCIC file list and fullscreen editor is available
as RUNGCIC EXEC on the Y disk. See GCIC MEMO on MAINT
19D (the U disk) for more information.

Dave
G4UGM

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 September 2017 12:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Simple setup
Beware the sixpack editor is a primitive "line oriented" editor
Heh, you might be too young to even know what that is ;)
You might consider Tom Brennan's Vista (nothing to do with MSoft
Vista) 3270 emulator, which allows easy cut / past to the screen, (edit offline
in a *real* editor), then paste into vm edit.
There are also some full screen extensions / editors in the
Hercules-390 vm group.
*(Are the full screen extensions built into sixpack 1.2 now ??)

You can download the Vmr6 sixpack from here
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/vm-370/vm370sixpack-1_2.zip
If you have no "mainframe" experience VM, is IMO the easiest system to
learn.
It has dos/linux like comands in the CMS environment (list, copy,
edit) etc.
You can find manuals for VM / CMS on bitsavers.org

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old
IBM os's
*Well there is sorta in TK4- .. ftp, "

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine.
This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just
the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
Thanks,
Mohan

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Ok, I'll rephrase :

The CMS *default* / traditional / built in editor .....documented in
"official" IBM manuals ...

And while GCIC is a nice project, it has some "quirks" to put it
mildly. (i.e. can't just "gcic myfile" from your current logged in
session.

I find MECAF to be more "smoother around the edges".

That all said, I often use the basic edit for quick / small programs.
I find the C(hange) "bring it down to the command line" sufficient
enough to "mimic" full screen editors.

Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Not true. From the memo:-
2. The GCIC file list and fullscreen editor is available
as RUNGCIC EXEC on the Y disk. See GCIC MEMO on MAINT
19D (the U disk) for more information.
Dave
G4UGM

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 September 2017 12:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Simple setup
Beware the sixpack editor is a primitive "line oriented" editor
Heh, you might be too young to even know what that is ;)
You might consider Tom Brennan's Vista (nothing to do with MSoft
Vista) 3270 emulator, which allows easy cut / past to the screen, (edit offline
in a *real* editor), then paste into vm edit.
There are also some full screen extensions / editors in the
Hercules-390 vm group.
*(Are the full screen extensions built into sixpack 1.2 now ??)

You can download the Vmr6 sixpack from here
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/vm-370/vm370sixpack-1_2.zip
If you have no "mainframe" experience VM, is IMO the easiest system to
learn.
It has dos/linux like comands in the CMS environment (list, copy,
edit) etc.
You can find manuals for VM / CMS on bitsavers.org

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old
IBM os's
*Well there is sorta in TK4- .. ftp, "

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine.
This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just
the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
Thanks,
Mohan

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Folks,
OK I have put an updated version of the VM six-pack here:-

http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/vm-370/VM370sixpack-1_3-Beta.zip

it has the DIAG58 and MECAFF tools pre-installed. So it has FSLIST and FSEDIT installed. It may also be contaminated with my doodlings

Dave

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 September 2017 12:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Simple setup
Beware the sixpack editor is a primitive "line oriented" editor
Heh, you might be too young to even know what that is ;)
You might consider Tom Brennan's Vista (nothing to do with MSoft
Vista) 3270 emulator, which allows easy cut / past to the screen, (edit offline
in a *real* editor), then paste into vm edit.
There are also some full screen extensions / editors in the
Hercules-390 vm group.
*(Are the full screen extensions built into sixpack 1.2 now ??)

You can download the Vmr6 sixpack from here
http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/vm-370/vm370sixpack-1_2.zip
If you have no "mainframe" experience VM, is IMO the easiest system to
learn.
It has dos/linux like comands in the CMS environment (list, copy,
edit) etc.
You can find manuals for VM / CMS on bitsavers.org

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old
IBM os's
*Well there is sorta in TK4- .. ftp, "

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine.
This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just
the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
Thanks,
Mohan

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Joe Monk [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Mohan,

You dont need an OS to do what you want to do.

If all you want to do is write a java routine to scrape the screen, simply
launch hercules and connect to the console port with ws3270. (Make sure
your system console is defined as a 3270 in the hercules config file!!!)
When you connect, you will get the hercules screen with the hercules banner.

You can then use your java code to drive ws3270, without having to load an
OS, as you will be able to scrape the hercules banner...

Joe

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine. This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just the
basic installation doesn't have a OS.
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.
Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi Joe, I understand that this is the simplest scraping task. Will try this first.
Once this works I could ask about how to read and write to the screen. Can I write to the screen now ?
That needs a data entry screen.


Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi Joe,
I understand that this is the simplest scraping task. Will try this first.
Once this works I could ask about how to read and write to the screen.
Can I write to the screen now ?
That needs a data entry screen.
Thanks,
ohan

If you want standalone source to allow writing, it might be:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/files/salife.zip
I've never used it but suspect it will work well for you.

To give the opportunity to save data, you may need an operating system?
A good one after you get through finding the correct install file and getting
a console working is TK4-minus:
http://wotho.ethz.ch/tk4-/
Hints:
You may want some of the top files but be certain to get the last
file with "Current" in the name.
MVS_TK4-_v1.00_Users_Manual.pdf User’s Manual
tk4-cbt.zip Optional CBT DASD
tk4-source.zip Optional Source DASD
tk4-_v1.00_current.zip Current TK4- System
Console issues are described starting on page 12 in the manual.
The default option is to use a web browser in place of a console and
the other is to use old line-mode telnet to lock MVS up.
You don't need to detach 0010 or 0011 but 001F can cause issues.

Another option is quick and dirty would be to update mvs.bat or the
mvs file to not set demon mode to "-d" or changing the hercules
command to not include it gives a normal console that you can both
enter commands on, keep full automation options, and can easily
back up when needed.

A poor 3270 test program that runs under TSO that I wrote is:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/H390-MVS/files/SimPDF.JCL
But may other programs are avail. Hercules group Files section have
some as well as CBT from the optional disks and http://cbttape.org/

For MVS questions, one of the groups available is:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/H390-MVS/info

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi Joe, I understand that this
is the simplest scraping task. Will try this first.

[ie scraping the Hercules logo]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Once this works I could ask about how
to read and write to the screen. Can I
write to the screen now ?
That needs a data entry screen.

I don't know how far you can go with the
Hercules logo, probably not far at all.

Based on what you have said now, what
you're actually looking for is TEST DATA,
and TK4- will provide the best test data
for your needs, ie lots of screens with
both input and output, and if you don't
like any of the existing ones, presumably
you can create your own, perhaps even
using KICKS for TSO. Or ISPF might be
included in TK4- now too. And you can
presumably even write your own programs
to drive the screens using the compilers
that come bundled in TK4-. Fullscreen
data is outside my knowledge though,
although I used to have some knowledge
of the 3270 data format.

BFN. Paul.

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If all you want to do is write a java routine to scrape the screen, simply
launch hercules and connect to the console port with ws3270.

Or for Python fans, there's py3270 that can control an x3270 or s3270
session to screen scrape a 3270 session:


https://github.com/level12/py3270

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old IBM os's

It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data in and
out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an ancient RS/6000 box
running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it
basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and uses a set of LUs accessible
through that controller and screen scraping techniques to retrieve and
update line driver dispatch information. The RS/6000 box was old when I
started in operations back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.

Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight bill
entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the Synergy server
screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter freight bills into our
mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC DOS, TUI app.
Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed down
the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files back and
forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen scraping.

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".

If Client-A is talking to the server, how does "scraper-process"
access "Client-A"'s screen ?

Or is it some "low-level" Vtam "privileged" program intercepting the
data stream to Client A ? (I'm guessing maybe NOT, as that doesn't
sound like "scraping" to me.

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data in and
out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an ancient RS/6000 box
running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it
basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and uses a set of LUs accessible
through that controller and screen scraping techniques to retrieve and
update line driver dispatch information. The RS/6000 box was old when I
started in operations back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.
Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight bill
entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the Synergy server
screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter freight bills into our
mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC DOS, TUI app.
Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed down
the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files back and
forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen scraping.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".

I wish I knew more about it myself, especially since everyone who knew more
about the way it connects to the 3174 and from there to our mainframe
retired and I'm the one left dealing with any problems that might come up
with it.

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Or is it some "low-level" Vtam "privileged" program intercepting the
data stream to Client A ? (I'm guessing maybe NOT, as that doesn't
sound like "scraping" to me.

There are scripts under DT/6000's control that drive a set of LUs. The
definitions of the first few look like:

DT6000 VBUILD TYPE=LOCAL
DT6000PU PU CUADDR=17E,PUTYPE=2,SECNET=YES,MAXBFRU=32, X
USSTAB=USSTABSN,LOGAPPL=CICS, X
DLOGMOD=DT6000,MODETAB=MT3274C
DT00 LU LOCADDR=02
DT01 LU LOCADDR=03
DT02 LU LOCADDR=04
DT03 LU LOCADDR=05

In DT/6000 I can bring up its "3270 operations" display which shows each LU
under its control and the script, if any, that's running on each. Shortly
after it first connects to all the LUs, for example, the 3270 operations
display will show the signon script running on each LU, and a CEMT I TAS in
our production CICS region will show a CSSN transaction running on the
various DT* terminals. I don't know the details of the various scripts, but
I know they basically fill in fields on the "display" of the LU they're
controlling, send an appropriate action key, and scrape what CICS sends back
to the LU. It sounds like scraping to me.

[Joe Monk [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

The scraper process uses EHLLAPI which is provided by the Client A
software. It feeds in the Session ID, and then has access to the screen as
text fields, which can be read/written ("scraped"). Basically, EHLLAPI
makes the 3270 emulator think it is being controlled by a human.

Joe

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".
If Client-A is talking to the server, how does "scraper-process"
access "Client-A"'s screen ?
Or is it some "low-level" Vtam "privileged" program intercepting the
data stream to Client A ? (I'm guessing maybe NOT, as that doesn't
sound like "scraping" to me.

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data in

and

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an ancient RS/6000
box
running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it
basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and uses a set of LUs

accessible

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
through that controller and screen scraping techniques to retrieve and
update line driver dispatch information. The RS/6000 box was old when I
started in operations back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.
Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight bill
entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the Synergy

server

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter freight bills into our
mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC DOS, TUI app.
Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed

down

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files back and
forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen scraping.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

SOIC now from reading the op's "other" thread ;)

Post by Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The scraper process uses EHLLAPI which is provided by the Client A
software. It feeds in the Session ID, and then has access to the screen as
text fields, which can be read/written ("scraped"). Basically, EHLLAPI
makes the 3270 emulator think it is being controlled by a human.
Joe

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".
If Client-A is talking to the server, how does "scraper-process"
access "Client-A"'s screen ?
Or is it some "low-level" Vtam "privileged" program intercepting the
data stream to Client A ? (I'm guessing maybe NOT, as that doesn't
sound like "scraping" to me.

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data in

and

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an ancient RS/6000
box
running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it
basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and uses a set of LUs

accessible

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
through that controller and screen scraping techniques to retrieve and
update line driver dispatch information. The RS/6000 box was old when I
started in operations back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.
Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight bill
entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the Synergy

server

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter freight bills into our
mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC DOS, TUI app.
Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed

down

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files back and
forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen scraping.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

[Kevin Monceaux [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".

After a little Binging I strongly suspect we're using IBM's 3174 token-ring
LAN gateway software:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/lan/ZZ78-0355-0_IBM_Token-Ring_Gateways_and_Bridges_Comparisons_and_Recommendations_Nov89.pdf

So DT/6000 is connecting 3270 emulator sessions over token-ring to the 3174
and the token-ring LAN gateway software makes the sessions appear to our
mainframe as physical coax attached terminals.

[Gerhard Postpischil [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".

IBM lent us a VDU (Voice something Unit - don't recall number or other
data), that looked like a 3x74 controller to the mainframe, and each
session connected to a phone line. A user request (phone key or voice?)
resulted in an interrupt (PF or enter key) that returned a screen of
data. The VDU then "read" portions of the screen to the user. The hitch
was that every possible screen had to be coded to allow the VDU to know
which fields to process, what actions to take, etc. I was consulting at
an insurance company at the time, and the genius VP who requested it
wasted five months of the six month trial period just having it sit in
her office. Due to that delay, we never got it working.

But simple "scraping" to convert 3270 screens to web frames is a bit
easier, and easier to debug.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Harold Grovesteen [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
And now I'm wondering about the geeky technical "how-it-works".
If Client-A is talking to the server, how does "scraper-process"
access "Client-A"'s screen ?
Or is it some "low-level" Vtam "privileged" program intercepting the
data stream to Client A ? (I'm guessing maybe NOT, as that doesn't
sound like "scraping" to me.

The "scraping" happens at the other end of the connection, the TN3270
client end of the connection.  Hercules doesn't even know it is
happening, let alone the OS or VTAM.

Harold Grovesteen

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hmm interesting.

I ASSume the scraping was necessary, since there was no
"data-transfer-api" for those programs ?

Or some other reason ?

Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old IBM os's

It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data in and
out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an ancient RS/6000 box
running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the exact details, but it
basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and uses a set of LUs accessible
through that controller and screen scraping techniques to retrieve and
update line driver dispatch information. The RS/6000 box was old when I
started in operations back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.
Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight bill
entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the Synergy server
screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter freight bills into our
mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC DOS, TUI app.
Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed down
the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files back and
forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen scraping.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Mike,

I wrote some screen scraping apps for various people. There a number of reasons for scraping rather than trying to interface to the Mainframe data.

1. It doesn't require any change to the Mainframe code.
2. As you suggest there was usually no data transfer API in the programs.
3. It preserves the business logic in the existing programs. You are still using the same vetting rules.
4. It can allow multiple systems to easily be interfaced to. So in the past BT (The UK telephony supplier) had multiple backend systems running on different platforms. I know billing ran on an IBM Mainframe. Provisioning (i.e. delivering a new service to a customer) and inventory were on other systems. By scraping all the applications we could write an PC application (actually in this case on a MAC) that would take an order, arrange for it to be delivered and installed, and charge for it. This required access to three different back end systems. In addition, we built local databases that checked the configurations were valid.

When I did it it was usually done on a PC with a 3270 card, so it would work on old Mainframes with no TCP/IP connectivity. I have also seen it done on Microsoft (or IBM) SAN server. SNA server in effect provides an offloaded 3270 to to TCP/IP connection. It talks to the Mainframe of SNA so SDLC or Token Ring and the clients connect to it via TCP/IP. I think IBM "Host On Demand" has a scraping API. Attachmate had a tool for scripting scraping which would analyse screen panels and generate VB code to fill in the fields. Not sure how good it was I generally didn't use it.

Dave.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 September 2017 14:52
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Simple setup
Hmm interesting.
I ASSume the scraping was necessary, since there was no "data-transfer-api"
for those programs ?
Or some other reason ?

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 07:14:59AM -0400, Mike Stramba

What are you intending to "scrape" ?
That's usually a "web" term, and there is no TCPIP in any of the old IBM os's

It can also be a 3270 term and has been used for decades to get data
in and out of mainframe systems. Where I work we still have an
ancient RS/6000 box running DirectTalk/6000. I'm not sure of the
exact details, but it basically talks to a 3174 over token ring and
uses a set of LUs accessible through that controller and screen
scraping techniques to retrieve and update line driver dispatch
information. The RS/6000 box was old when I started in operations
back in '98. It's running AIX 3.2.
Once upon a time we also used a product called Synergy for freight
bill entry. Users would enter freight bills into Synergy and the
Synergy server screen scraped three Attachmate sessions to enter
freight bills into our mainframe. At that time Synergy was a DOS, as in PC

DOS, TUI app.

Eventually we downgraded to a Windoze version of Synergy, which slowed
down the billers a bit. The Windoze version of Synergy FTP'd files
back and forth to get data in and out of our mainframe instead of screen

scraping.

--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hi Dave, That is called 'Robotic Process Automation' and many tools have workflows that one uses to automate repetitive human tasks. AI and RPA may be disliked because they do what many humans do now :-)


Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine.
This took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ?
I am assuming just the basic installation doesn't have a OS.
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.
Thanks,
Mohan

The simplest OS for your use would probably be a stand-alone
program like ZZSA or ICKSADSF.

My preference is ICKSADSF R15 or R16 but most might pick
ZZSA but then you need at least one DASDINITed disk.
dasdinit -z disk00.123 3390-1 disk00
and attach or put it in your hercules configuration file.
Having a disk volume might be nice for ICKSADSF also.

ZZSA requires ARCHMODE or ARCHLVL that handles
S370-31bit or above.
ARCHMODE ESAME or z/Arch
ICKSADSF R16 doesn't care.

Hercules release dependent but the following hercules
configuration file has worked for me for both ICKSADSF
and ZSSA.
Note the TN3270 console IP port is 3270 so that must
be used when connecting.

#
# Configuration file for Hercules emulator
#

CPUSERIAL 000611
CPUMODEL 3090
MAINSIZE 064
XPNDSIZE 0
CNSLPORT 3270
HTTPROOT HTTP
HTTPPORT 8080 noauth # auth userid password
PANTITLE "ZZSA"
NUMCPU 1
TODDRAG 1
ARCHMODE ESAME # Architecture mode S/370, ESA/390, ESAME, or z/Arch
# .-----------------------------Device number
# | .------------------------Device type
# | | .--------------------File name
# | | |
# V V V
#--- ---- --------------------
000A 3505 standalone/icksadsf.r16.rdr
000C 3505 standalone/zzsacard.bin
00C0 3270
INCLUDE conf\Disks.conf

Disks.conf contains things like:

#
# Disks configuration file for Hercules emulator
#
# .-----------------------------Device number
# | .------------------------Device type
# | | .--------------------File name
# | | |
# V V V
#--- ---- --------------------
0123 3390 dasd/disk00.123

[Mike Stramba [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Mohan,

If you just want some generated text, a "bare" Hercules sends a
"splash screen" to a connected 3270 client. There are no input
fields though. If you need them, you'll need some kind of program to
generate them.
You can just have a one line hercules.cnf file :

---- hercules.cnf ---
0010 3270
# end of file.

Start hercules from the same directory where hercules.cnf is, then
connect your 3270 client to localhost, port 3270 (the default), you
should see the splash screen.

If you want to change the port, add a
CNSLPORT 1234 # whatever port num you want (1234) here

============= zzsa ============
As somitcw mentioned, zzsa is probably the smallest :
http://www.cbttape.org/~jjaeger/zzsa.html

Extract zzsacard.bin into the same directory as the following hercules.cnf

Start hercules, then connect your 3270 client, then from the hercules
console issue IPL 00C. Then on the 3270 press ENTER, should get an
"Enter Password" prompt (zzsecret).

---- zzsa minimal hercules.cnf file----
PANTITLE "Hercules zzSa port:3270"
#CNSLPORT 11

ARCHMODE ESA/390

0001 3390 dummy.3390 # create with dasdinit -z -a dummy.3390 3390 TST001

0010 3270

000C 3505 zzsacard.bin
----------- eof ------------

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have hercules 390 and ws3270 setup on my Windows machine. This
took only a few minutes.
Which guide should I look at to get a basic OS ? I am assuming just the
basic installation doesn't have a OS.
I just need the simplest OS to connect and scrape some text.
Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Hello,


This thread is a month old. I tried it when I had time. This is what I see.
There is no splash screen but it is connected. Is this sufficient to scrape simple text ? No emulator screen appears.


Thanks,
Mohan


Client :


C:\wc3270>ws3270.exe -port 3270 -model 3279-2 127.0.0.1

Hercules :


Modes: S/370 ESA/390 z/Arch +
Max CPU Engines: 8
Using fthreads instead of pthreads
Dynamic loading support
Using shared libraries
HTTP Server support
No SIGABEND handler
Regular Expressions support
Automatic Operator support
Machine dependent assists: cmpxchg1 cmpxchg4 cmpxchg8
Running on NEURALNETWORK Windows_NT-6.2 AMD64 MP=8
HHCHD018I Loadable module directory is hercules
Crypto module loaded (c) Copyright Bernard van der Helm, 2003-2010
Active: Message Security Assist
Message Security Assist Extension 1
Message Security Assist Extension 2
HHCCF065I Hercules: tid=00000790, pid=4540, pgid=4540, priority=0
HHCTE001I Console connection thread started: tid=000022B0, pid=4540
HHCPN001I Control panel thread started: tid=00000790, pid=4540
HHCTE003I Waiting for console connection on port 3270
HHCAO001I Hercules Automatic Operator thread started;
tid=00002144, pri=0, pid=4540
HHCTE009I Client 127.0.0.1 connected to 3270 device 0:0010
Command ==>

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
C:\wc3270>ws3270.exe -port 3270 -model 3279-2 127.0.0.1

I thought 3279 was a graphics screen?
If so, perhaps it can't handle 3270 data
stream, which is probably all Hercules
can put out. Otherwise I would have
expected to see the Hercules logo.

So try:

ws3270.exe -port 3270

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Modes: S/370 ESA/390 z/Arch

You didn't show the first line, which is the
Hercules version number.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
HHCTE009I Client 127.0.0.1 connected to 3270 device 0:0010

Looks good to me.

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
There is no splash screen but it is connected.

Ok. I use wc3270:

C:\mvs380\wc3270>dir wc3270*.exe
Volume in drive C is OS
Volume Serial Number is 4274-E68B

Directory of C:\mvs380\wc3270

2011-08-24 10:36 1,296,637 wc3270-insecure.exe


and I tried this simple command:

wc3270-insecure localhost:3270

and it definitely displayed the Hercules logo,
which, after MVS IPLed, got converted into
a turnkey logo.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I thought 3279 was a graphics screen?

I found that the wc3270 that I am using
supports that model too.

wc3270-insecure -model 3279-2 localhost:3270

and it worked fine for me. So that's unlikely to
be the issue.

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
HHCTE009I Client 127.0.0.1 connected to 3270 device 0:0010

Looks good to me.

Actually it no longer looks good to me.

In my log I get:

16:41:19 HHCTE009I Client 127.0.0.1 connected to 3270 device 0:00C0

In my Hercules conf file I have:

00C0 3270 # TSO Terminal #1

So you can see that it is a 3270 terminal
and Hercules knows what to do with it.

But at device 0:0010 from your log, my
config file has:

#0010 3270 CONSOLE # CRT console #1

ie it is commented out, for some reason,
probably because I don't actually want a
console, and I'm guessing that this forces
the 3270 to switch to device 00C0 as the
next available slot.

So maybe you can try commenting that
out too. You "certainly" won't get a TSO
terminal if you don't move it from 0010
to 00C0. Not that you need a TSO
terminal necessarily.

But quite frankly, I'd STILL expect Hercules,
after getting a connection to 0010, to send
out the Hercules logo. I don't think Hercules
should treat consoles differently from TSO
terminals. Can I see what your 0010 looks
like in your Hercules config file? Maybe you
have defined it as a 3215 instead of 3270.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
But quite frankly, I'd STILL expect Hercules,
after getting a connection to 0010, to send
out the Hercules logo. I don't think Hercules
should treat consoles differently from TSO
terminals.

I have one more theory.

Maybe Hercules treats the master console
different from other consoles/terminals, and
doesn't send the logo to them.

I have this in my hercules conf:

001F 3215-C / noprompt # Line-mode console

that "-C" makes the master console an
internal Hercules 3215 terminal instead
of an external terminal.

And if you do that, I think all these need
to be commented out:

#0010 3270 CONSOLE # CRT console #1
#0011 3270 CONSOLE # CRT console #2
#001F 3215 # Master console (Telnet) # 1

Not sure why. I'm guessing it's because
Hercules scans through all the addresses,
starting from 0, and it stops at the first one
that has a 3215 or 3270 device type.

BFN. Paul.

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I have one more theory.
Maybe Hercules treats the master console
different from other consoles/terminals, and
doesn't send the logo to them.

Hercules has no notion of a "master" console. Any 327x terminal defined
is just yet another terminal connected to a fictuous 3274/3174 and when
connected will send the 'hercules' logo and will present an unsolicited
Device End and that's it.

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Mine is a basic installation and there is no OS. I have only this in my conf. file.


0010 3270



Thanks.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Mine is a basic installation and there is no OS.
I have only this in my conf. file.
0010 3270

I tried this:

C:\mvs380_work\miniherc>type herc.cnf
0010 3270


C:\mvs380_work\miniherc>hercules -f herc.cnf


with a slightly modified Hercules 3.07,
and then did this:

wc3270-insecure -model 3279-2 localhost:3270

from another window, and it all worked
fine for me, ie I got the Hercules logo.

Here's the log message:

HHCTE009I Client 127.0.0.1 connected to 3270 device 0:0010

(but with that simple invocation I didn't get
an actual log, that's just what appeared on
the screen)

I'm using Windows 10.

So yeah, Ivan's suggestion is probably best.
Try a different terminal emulator and when
it starts working, report a bug in the current
one.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Oh!

I got the splash screen using wc3270 -port 3270 -model 3279-2 127.0.0.1


ws3270.exe doesn't seem to be the right one.



Thanks,
Mohan

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I got the splash screen using wc3270 -port 3270 -model 3279-2 127.0.0.1
ws3270.exe doesn't seem to be the right one.

Cool!

I see from:

http://x3270.bgp.nu/Windows/ws3270-man.html

that it is designed to do some sort of scripting.
I'm surprised there's no error message along
the lines of "no script file provided". It's
presumably hiding the output from Hercules.

So you need:

http://x3270.bgp.nu/Windows/wc3270-man.html

That also explains why I didn't find a
ws3270.exe on my system to try.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
ws3270.exe -port 3270

Still try this regardless, as I would still
expect 3278 (presumably the default)
to be more likely to work than 3279.

BFN. Paul.

['Dave Wade' [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 29 October 2017 06:02
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Simple setup

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
ws3270.exe -port 3270

Still try this regardless, as I would still expect 3278 (presumably the default)
to be more likely to work than 3279.

In text mode there is no difference. A 3279G defaults to normal 3270 operation.
Hercules does not care or know about TSO Master Consoles. You get the logo on a powered up but not IPLed system.
Once MVS is running the logo may be quickly cleared by the host OS..

BFN. Paul.

Dave

------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
C:\wc3270>ws3270.exe -port 3270 -model 3279-2 127.0.0.1

I thought 3279 was a graphics screen?
If so, perhaps it can't handle 3270 data
stream, which is probably all Hercules
can put out. Otherwise I would have
expected to see the Hercules logo.
ws3270.exe -port 3270

Paul,

You should know by now that any 327x/317x or any terminal thereafter
behaves as a 3278 model 2 until instructed otherwise by a WSF (Write
Structured Field).

Wrong culprit.

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
Hercules has no notion of a "master" console. Any 327x terminal defined
is just yet another terminal connected to a fictuous 3274/3174 and when
connected will send the 'hercules' logo and will present an unsolicited
Device End and that's it.

Ok, and multiple independent terminals
are all able to connect via the same
3270 port or whatever other number is
specified here:

CNSLPORT 3270

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
You should know by now that any 327x/317x
or any terminal thereafter
behaves as a 3278 model 2 until instructed
otherwise by a WSF (Write
Structured Field).

I have very little knowledge of different 327*
terminals, and today I only use them occasionally
and under protest. I would be more inclined
to use a Hercules-connected terminal if it
was VT200/ANSI and emacs had been
ported to MVS 3.8j, but until then (and maybe
even after then, because other tools like CVS
are missing), I prefer to wear the approx 4
second cost of IPL time and send all my code
up via a tape drive and card reader, and read
the result via the printer.

I use that 4 second window to contemplate life
and do housework. Admittedly a lot of my
household relies on biodegrading and/or
evaporation.

BFN. Paul.

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I would be more inclined
to use a Hercules-connected terminal if it
was VT200/ANSI

Actually what I would really like is to be
able to use the Hercules integrated console
and where ESC currently displays the
CPU, registers etc, I would like another
ESC (or some other control) to take me
to a raw 3215 screen so that I can
directly type in commands instead of
having to prefix them with "/", and only
seeing application data instead of
Hercules output.

Basically the exact thing that I would
see if I connected a separate 3215/telnet
screen to Hercules.

That way I would never have to fire up
a separate 3215 to use PDOS/3x0 as
the one inside Hercules would look just
as good.

If that is done, the next thing I would like
is for the Hercules integrated console to
handle the VT200/ANSI control sequences,
in preparation for a port of micro-emacs.

Note that I believe that starting with an
update of Windows 10, Windows command
line now supports the ANSI escape
sequences, so Hercules would not be
required to interpret these, but simply
pass them on to Windows to display.

BFN. Paul.

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
Hercules has no notion of a "master" console. Any 327x terminal defined
is just yet another terminal connected to a fictuous 3274/3174 and when
connected will send the 'hercules' logo and will present an unsolicited
Device End and that's it.

Ok, and multiple independent terminals
are all able to connect via the same
3270 port or whatever other number is
CNSLPORT 3270

Yes.. And ?

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
You should know by now that any 327x/317x
or any terminal thereafter
behaves as a 3278 model 2 until instructed
otherwise by a WSF (Write
Structured Field).

I have very little knowledge of different 327*
terminals, and today I only use them occasionally
and under protest. I would be more inclined
to use a Hercules-connected terminal if it
was VT200/ANSI and emacs had been
ported to MVS 3.8j, but until then (and maybe
even after then, because other tools like CVS
are missing), I prefer to wear the approx 4
second cost of IPL time and send all my code
up via a tape drive and card reader, and read
the result via the printer.
I use that 4 second window to contemplate life
and do housework. Admittedly a lot of my
household relies on biodegrading and/or
evaporation.

Uh ? What is your point ?

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[[e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Ok, and multiple independent terminals
are all able to connect via the same
3270 port or whatever other number is
CNSLPORT 3270

Yes.. And ?

Just confirming. I'm a bit surprised that
that actually works. I would have thought
the multiple terminals would have clashed
with each other, and that you instead
need port numbers, perhaps using 3270
as a starting point, so the second terminal
needs to connect to port 3271 etc.

Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]

Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I use that 4 second window to contemplate life
and do housework. Admittedly a lot of my
household relies on biodegrading and/or
evaporation.

Uh ? What is your point ?

Just a joke combined with a jab at people
who think I am working inefficiently by
repeatedly IPLing my MVS system instead
of logging on to TSO like everyone else.

BTW, a tip for people using the Yahoo
interface. I normally highlight all the text
and then do ctrl-c to copy it, in case
Yahoo loses the message. While writing
this message, I accidentally pressed "c"
instead of ctrl-c, so all my work was lost,
replaced by the letter "c", and I assumed
my writing had disappeared forever and
I needed to write a new reply.

But then I did a right-click and was surprised
to see an "undo" and that it actually works,
so I didn't lose my writing. I'm using Google
Chrome.

BFN. Paul.

[Ivan Warren [e-mail] [hercules-390]]

Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hello,
This thread is a month old. I tried it when I had time. This is what I see.
There is no splash screen but it is connected. Is this sufficient to
scrape simple text ? No emulator screen appears.
Thanks,
Mohan

Mohan,

Have you tried another emulator ?

--Ivan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]