Discussion:
zPDT (was RE: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume)
(too old to reply)
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 12:04:01 UTC
Permalink
John,



Pretty sure IBM wants to stay in the Mainframe business, BUT it only wants to sell to those for who are locked in an unable to move. If lots of folks knew how mainframes work some of them might figure out a way to move zOS work to another platform. To IBM the image of zOS as a “hard thing” that “needs IBM consultants to make work properly” means that it does not want lots of people learning zOS at home.



They have a different mind set to that which DEC had, which is why we have a OpenVMS Hobbyist program and not a zPDT hobbyist program.



Dave





From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 09 November 2018 11:41
To: Harold Bell ***@att.net [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume





Yeah, I combed through IBM’s site to find the price and I was shocked to find that the annual cost is more that my computers, phones and all my kitchen countertop devices. Probably my TV too. And that’s just the annual cost. A permanent license is in used car territory. This either fits in with IBM’s general soak ‘em pricing policies (software and hardware) or a way to dissuade hobbists like us. Strange because I can only assume that the pool of mainframe knowedgable folks is diminishing and if I were them I’d want to encourage us. The bigger the pool of potential empoyees, the more likely companies are to want to stay in the mainmain biz. Example in point. Oracle gives away copies of the database and Java, not to mention a few other things, if you have a developer’s account, which is free. Oracle is among that set of enlightened companies which believe that the more you can generate interest in your products, the better the likelyhood of future corporate licenses. And lets not talk about Linux.



This all of course assumes that IBM wants to stay in the mainframe business..



John Murray

2 Avenue de Peterhof
Paris 75017
France





On 9 Nov 2018, at 09:33, ***@yahoo.com.au <mailto:***@yahoo.com.au> [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:



People asked for something like that for years,
and IBM delivered it - zPDT - which costs less
than a car.

BFN. Paul.

---In <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@... <mailto:***@...> > wrote :

I truly hope that IBM does read this group, and maybe realizes that perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing for them
to have "less expensive" options available to those of us who are retired hobbyists! But then again there's
those letters I-B-M .............. :-((((((

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/8/18, Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@ <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> ... mailto:***@... [hercules-390] < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume
To: "hercules-390 hercules" < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, November 8, 2018, 9:56 PM

Hello!
Let us be polite to the fellow Tony. For all we know he's running
an older release of Z/OS (Ycch!) via
Hercules, or even, (something forbid
it) a newer release the same way. And naturally we'd need to
know more about how our friend is indeed
doing that.

And let us be careful, there's still a rumor going around (very fast
I think) that IBM does read this group and probably the others.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@ <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> ... mailto:***@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time
and again."
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at
All works fine except when I create a
dataset using the HLQ JS51 I want it to go to a this new
volume (LEIDS1) I created. Instead when I create a dataset
like JS51.TEST1 it goes to a VOLUME called JASYS volume. SMS
is generally not being used on this system. So what in the
Z/OS setup (without SMS) tells it to create the dataset on
JASYS ? I want to change it to point to LEIDS1.
This is a z/OS question that doesn't belong on the H390
group. I can't see that it has anything at all to do
with Hercules.
Any pointers
..
Ask on IBM-MAIN. There are lots of z/OS-knowledgeable people
there.
"For
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
instructions,
with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN"
Tony H.
________________________________
________________________________
And this message is being
sponsored by Perry Mason Attorney at Law in
the Brent Building in LA.


------------------------------------
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------------------------------------

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John Murray john.ar.murray@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 12:34:30 UTC
Permalink
So AFAIK, what would need to move is the application set along with all the security that zOS provides (and I truely don’t know what that is, other than, like Apple, IBM controls everty aspect of zOS). Things like application servers (like CICS) and databases can be replaced with other bits of software, but it’s all the business rules encoded in the apps that would be problematic, mostly because they’ve been forgotten over time. This is of course not to mention really old database architectures like IMS. What companies would do, over time, is more all the new development to new hdw/sfw bases andf do the migration gradually over years. Admittedly some kinds of apps (Visa, etc) would take much longer to move than others, but the development tools (languages, frameworks, etc) are, in my experience, much richer outside zOS. It is also not unimaginable to create new function elsewhere and use various networking protocols (e.g. distributed objects in EJB) to call functions developed in say Websphere** from zOS, assuming that network speeds are acceptable.

**OK, OK, some IBM stuff might remain.


John Murray

2 Avenue de Peterhof
Paris 75017
France
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
John,
Pretty sure IBM wants to stay in the Mainframe business, BUT it only wants to sell to those for who are locked in an unable to move. If lots of folks knew how mainframes work some of them might figure out a way to move zOS work to another platform. To IBM the image of zOS as a “hard thing” that “needs IBM consultants to make work properly” means that it does not want lots of people learning zOS at home.
They have a different mind set to that which DEC had, which is why we have a OpenVMS Hobbyist program and not a zPDT hobbyist program.
Dave
Sent: 09 November 2018 11:41
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume
Yeah, I combed through IBM’s site to find the price and I was shocked to find that the annual cost is more that my computers, phones and all my kitchen countertop devices. Probably my TV too. And that’s just the annual cost. A permanent license is in used car territory. This either fits in with IBM’s general soak ‘em pricing policies (software and hardware) or a way to dissuade hobbists like us. Strange because I can only assume that the pool of mainframe knowedgable folks is diminishing and if I were them I’d want to encourage us. The bigger the pool of potential empoyees, the more likely companies are to want to stay in the mainmain biz. Example in point. Oracle gives away copies of the database and Java, not to mention a few other things, if you have a developer’s account, which is free. Oracle is among that set of enlightened companies which believe that the more you can generate interest in your products, the better the likelyhood of future corporate licenses. And lets not talk about Linux.
This all of course assumes that IBM wants to stay in the mainframe business.
John Murray
2 Avenue de Peterhof
Paris 75017
France
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
People asked for something like that for years,
and IBM delivered it - zPDT - which costs less
than a car.
BFN. Paul.
I truly hope that IBM does read this group, and maybe realizes that perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing for them
to have "less expensive" options available to those of us who are retired hobbyists! But then again there's
those letters I-B-M ............... :-((((((
--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume
Date: Thursday, November 8, 2018, 9:56 PM
Hello!
Let us be polite to the fellow Tony. For all we know he's running
an older release of Z/OS (Ycch!) via
Hercules, or even, (something forbid
it) a newer release the same way. And naturally we'd need to
know more about how our friend is indeed
doing that.
And let us be careful, there's still a rumor going around (very fast
I think) that IBM does read this group and probably the others.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time
and again."
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at
All works fine except when I create a
dataset using the HLQ JS51 I want it to go to a this new
volume (LEIDS1) I created. Instead when I create a dataset
like JS51.TEST1 it goes to a VOLUME called JASYS volume. SMS
is generally not being used on this system. So what in the
Z/OS setup (without SMS) tells it to create the dataset on
JASYS ? I want to change it to point to LEIDS1.
This is a z/OS question that doesn't belong on the H390
group. I can't see that it has anything at all to do
with Hercules.
Any pointers
..
Ask on IBM-MAIN. There are lots of z/OS-knowledgeable people
there.
"For
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
instructions,
with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN"
Tony H.
________________________________
________________________________
And this message is being
sponsored by Perry Mason Attorney at Law in
the Brent Building in LA.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
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'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 15:34:57 UTC
Permalink
John,

IBM don’t make zOS or zVM security bulletins public, so we have no idea about its security. I am pretty sure that using penetration tools won’t reveal the security holes that may be there. What is needed as you say are people with business skills, zOS skills and Linux or Windows skills. If IBM made it easier to learn about zOS would that make it harder or easier to move work away. I suggest easier




Dave

G4UGM



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 09 November 2018 12:35
To: Harold Bell ***@att.net [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: zPDT (was RE: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume)





So AFAIK, what would need to move is the application set along with all the security that zOS provides (and I truely don’t know what that is, other than, like Apple, IBM controls everty aspect of zOS). Things like application servers (like CICS) and databases can be replaced with other bits of software, but it’s all the business rules encoded in the apps that would be problematic, mostly because they’ve been forgotten over time. This is of course not to mention really old database architectures like IMS. What companies would do, over time, is more all the new development to new hdw/sfw bases andf do the migration gradually over years. Admittedly some kinds of apps (Visa, etc) would take much longer to move than others, but the development tools (languages, frameworks, etc) are, in my experience, much richer outside zOS. It is also not unimaginable to create new function elsewhere and use various networking protocols (e.g. distributed objects in EJB) to call functions developed in say Websphere** from zOS, assuming that network speeds are acceptable.



**OK, OK, some IBM stuff might remain.



John Murray

2 Avenue de Peterhof
Paris 75017
France





On 9 Nov 2018, at 13:04, 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> > wrote:





John,



Pretty sure IBM wants to stay in the Mainframe business, BUT it only wants to sell to those for who are locked in an unable to move. If lots of folks knew how mainframes work some of them might figure out a way to move zOS work to another platform. To IBM the image of zOS as a “hard thing” that “needs IBM consultants to make work properly” means that it does not want lots of people learning zOS at home.



They have a different mind set to that which DEC had, which is why we have a OpenVMS Hobbyist program and not a zPDT hobbyist program.



Dave





From: <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 09 November 2018 11:41
To: Harold Bell <mailto:***@att.net> ***@att.net [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups..com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups..com> >
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume





Yeah, I combed through IBM’s site to find the price and I was shocked to find that the annual cost is more that my computers, phones and all my kitchen countertop devices. Probably my TV too. And that’s just the annual cost. A permanent license is in used car territory. This either fits in with IBM’s general soak ‘em pricing policies (software and hardware) or a way to dissuade hobbists like us. Strange because I can only assume that the pool of mainframe knowedgable folks is diminishing and if I were them I’d want to encourage us. The bigger the pool of potential empoyees, the more likely companies are to want to stay in the mainmain biz. Example in point. Oracle gives away copies of the database and Java, not to mention a few other things, if you have a developer’s account, which is free. Oracle is among that set of enlightened companies which believe that the more you can generate interest in your products, the better the likelyhood of future corporate licenses. And lets not talk about Linux.



This all of course assumes that IBM wants to stay in the mainframe business..



John Murray

2 Avenue de Peterhof
Paris 75017
France






On 9 Nov 2018, at 09:33, <mailto:***@yahoo.com.au> ***@yahoo..com.au [hercules-390] < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



People asked for something like that for years,
and IBM delivered it - zPDT - which costs less
than a car.

BFN. Paul.

---In <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, < <mailto:***@...> ***@...> wrote :

I truly hope that IBM does read this group, and maybe realizes that perhaps it wouldn't be a bad thing for them
to have "less expensive" options available to those of us who are retired hobbyists! But then again there's
those letters I-B-M ............... :-((((((

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 11/8/18, Gregg Levine <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> ***@... <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> mailto:***@... [hercules-390] < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> hercules-***@yahoogroups..com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume
To: "hercules-390 hercules" < <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups..com> hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, November 8, 2018, 9:56 PM

Hello!
Let us be polite to the fellow Tony. For all we know he's running
an older release of Z/OS (Ycch!) via
Hercules, or even, (something forbid
it) a newer release the same way. And naturally we'd need to
know more about how our friend is indeed
doing that.

And let us be careful, there's still a rumor going around (very fast
I think) that IBM does read this group and probably the others.
-----
Gregg C Levine <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> ***@... <mailto:gregg.drwho8@> mailto:***@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time
and again."
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at
All works fine except when I create a
dataset using the HLQ JS51 I want it to go to a this new
volume (LEIDS1) I created. Instead when I create a dataset
like JS51.TEST1 it goes to a VOLUME called JASYS volume. SMS
is generally not being used on this system. So what in the
Z/OS setup (without SMS) tells it to create the dataset on
JASYS ? I want to change it to point to LEIDS1.
This is a z/OS question that doesn't belong on the H390
group. I can't see that it has anything at all to do
with Hercules.
Any pointers
..
Ask on IBM-MAIN. There are lots of z/OS-knowledgeable people
there.
"For
IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
instructions,
with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN"
Tony H..
________________________________
________________________________
And this message is being
sponsored by Perry Mason Attorney at Law in
the Brent Building in LA.


------------------------------------
Posted by: Gregg Levine < <mailto:***@...%20mailto:***@....> ***@... mailto:***@...>
------------------------------------

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Get the latest version of
Hercules from:
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Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 18:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IBM don’t make zOS or zVM security bulletins public, so we have no idea
about its security. I am pretty sure that using penetration tools won’t
reveal the security holes that may be there. What is needed as you say
are people with business skills, zOS skills and Linux or Windows skills.
If IBM made it easier to learn about zOS would that make it harder or
easier to move work away. I suggest easier

I seem to recall having seen a video on YouTube a year or two ago
about someone doing some real-world (i.e., not in a walled and
controlled "IBM shop" datacenter) network security testing on z/OS and
found that it was utter swiss cheese.

That was honestly quite surprising to me, but not really worrisome, as
banks and whatnot generally don't plug their zSeries machines into the
public Internet.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 18:44:37 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 09 November 2018 18:12
Subject: Re: zPDT (was RE: [hercules-390] HLQ dataset Volume)
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IBM don’t make zOS or zVM security bulletins public, so we have no
idea about its security. I am pretty sure that using penetration tools
won’t reveal the security holes that may be there. What is needed as
you say are people with business skills, zOS skills and Linux or Windows
skills.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If IBM made it easier to learn about zOS would that make it harder or
easier to move work away. I suggest easier

I seem to recall having seen a video on YouTube a year or two ago about
someone doing some real-world (i.e., not in a walled and controlled "IBM
shop" datacenter) network security testing on z/OS and found that it was
utter swiss cheese.
That was honestly quite surprising to me, but not really worrisome, as banks
and whatnot generally don't plug their zSeries machines into the public
Internet.
Given the age of the code and its history it is not really surprising its got holes in it. I don't suppose that there is any of the original PASCAL code in there but because of their use in Universities they were "on the internet" a long time ago.
Its interesting to note that security vulnerabilities have recently been discovered in VAX VMS, another operating system that was for many years held up as an example of a bullet proof OS. This time the hole required DCL access but it allowed any user to by-pass all security checks. Again the way in which VMS is still used should prevent real exploits, but its still out there....
-Dave
Dave
G4UGM
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
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Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-11-10 04:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
(Replying to the man who wrote that with an audience.)
Hello!
In the case of the banks, including the one I use, (ironically the
posts from the people from it are interesting.) I suspect their
publicly accessible sites, are managed via overworked and underpaid
penguins.

Besides, I'm more worried that someone would make use of what he
learned from using the VM stuff we have to try and break into any zVM
system and of course not succeeding.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IBM don’t make zOS or zVM security bulletins public, so we have no idea
about its security. I am pretty sure that using penetration tools won’t
reveal the security holes that may be there. What is needed as you say
are people with business skills, zOS skills and Linux or Windows skills..
If IBM made it easier to learn about zOS would that make it harder or
easier to move work away. I suggest easier

I seem to recall having seen a video on YouTube a year or two ago
about someone doing some real-world (i.e., not in a walled and
controlled "IBM shop" datacenter) network security testing on z/OS and
found that it was utter swiss cheese.
That was honestly quite surprising to me, but not really worrisome, as
banks and whatnot generally don't plug their zSeries machines into the
public Internet.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
And this message is sponsored by the local Rebel Alliance recruitment
offices please remember to greet the Wookiee at the doors properly.
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2018-11-09 19:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Murray ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What companies would do, over time, is more all the new development to new
hdw/sfw bases andf do the migration gradually over years.
Gradually over years would have probably been a good idea. Having recently
experienced downgrading from z/OS to another platform, I can wholeheartedly
suggest that it's something that shouldn't be rushed, if attempted at all.
Our z/OS based system was written in house, with many programs dating back
to the early '80s. After considering some Windows based options, a third
party package that runs on the platform formerly known as the AS/400 was
chosen. The original plan was for our programmers to spend about a year
writing custom code to add features we had on our z/OS system that the new
system didn't have. Over three years later, we switched to the new
platform. We were no where near ready to make the switch. It was upper
management's idea to migrate from our old system to begin with, and upper
management who pushed us to make the switch when we did. The first month or
so on the new system was a nightmare. Most of our programmers were
practically living in their offices. We lost customers and revenue because
of the change, but upper management got what they wanted. It took about six
months to get most of the major issues with the new system ironed out. Even
though we migrated from z/OS to another platform, we're still on an IBM
platform. The cost of running z/OS was all upper management was looking at.
They wanted us on a "cheaper" platform. As the old saying goes, you get
what you pay for. And truthfully, it wasn't IBM's costs that killed z/OS in
our shop, it was the cost of our CA product licenses. Our mainframe didn't
have quite enough CPU power to handle its current workload. We had
additional CPU power in the box we could have had IBM activate, but that
would have pushed our CA product licenses up to the next pricing tier.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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