Discussion:
LNK Executables?
(too old to reply)
halfmeg
2004-12-12 17:35:42 UTC
Permalink
During a recent experiment we wanted to use CCKD2CKD to decompress
some compressed DASD images. Imagine our surprise when we entered
the command "CCKD2CKD --help" to get the syntax and got:

"'cckd2ckd' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file."

When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help" the normal help display
appears.

This was from a snapshot not the just released 3.02 but imagine
the "lnk" executables are still there.

Phil - does LIBTOOL do this helpful stuff for everyone ?





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Jay Maynard
2004-12-12 18:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help" the normal help display
appears.
This was from a snapshot not the just released 3.02 but imagine
the "lnk" executables are still there.
This is because 3.02 (and 3.01, and maybe 3.00, I don't recall at the
moment) has ckd2cckd and friends all as links to one program, dasdcopy. This
Just Works in Unix-style systems, and I suspect it would Just Work under
Cygwin's bash shell...but it apparently doesn't work under the normal
Windows shell. Ooops.

The best suggestion I can make is to delete the .lnk files and copy dasdcopy
to ckd2cckd and so on.

(Windows gurus: Got any better suggestions?)


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-12 23:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Maynard
Post by halfmeg
When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help" the normal help display
appears.
This was from a snapshot not the just released 3.02 but imagine
the "lnk" executables are still there.
This is because 3.02 (and 3.01, and maybe 3.00, I don't recall at
the moment) has ckd2cckd and friends all as links to one program,
dasdcopy. This Just Works in Unix-style systems, and I suspect it
would Just Work under Cygwin's bash shell...but it apparently
doesn't work under the normal Windows shell. Ooops.
The best suggestion I can make is to delete the .lnk files and copy
dasdcopy to ckd2cckd and so on.
(Windows gurus: Got any better suggestions?)
Ok, LNK executables are still there in 3.02 release. It does "just
work" under CYGWIN bash shell, but not under DOS window (even with
CYGWIN in path).

The HERCULES home page does state in order to run under WINDOWS you
must first install the CYGWIN package. We feel this is an artificial
requirement imposed with the move to version 3. We believe the use
of LIBTOOL had a part in the "requirement" to install numerous &
multiple directories of files which tend to change frequently which
have nothing whatsoever to do with the Hercules binaries. Then again
we could be wrong.

Phil - keep it simple for us newbies





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Jay Maynard
2004-12-12 23:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
The HERCULES home page does state in order to run under WINDOWS you
must first install the CYGWIN package. We feel this is an artificial
requirement imposed with the move to version 3. We believe the use
of LIBTOOL had a part in the "requirement" to install numerous &
multiple directories of files which tend to change frequently which
have nothing whatsoever to do with the Hercules binaries. Then again
we could be wrong.
(What's this "we" stuff, white man?)

I'm not real happy either with the way that Cygwin has to be handled for
those who just want to run Hercules on Windows. The fundamental problem is
that the Cygwin developers aren't interested in people using it just as a
way to run Linux software on Windows. They're only interested in people
using it to provide a Linux-style environment on their Windows machines to
be used as the main user interface.

As such, they don't cater to installing just the runtime stuff. They make no
attempt to identify what's needed and what isn't. If you have problems, they
expect you to install the normal stuff before coming to them with questions.

Couple this with the fact that everything's GPLed, and so we can't
distribute just the stuff needed for Hercules without accepting a hugs
burden of keeping lots of unneeded source around, and we're left with the
present situation as the result.

I don't like it, but I don't see a way around it.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-13 10:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
The HERCULES home page does state in order to run under WINDOWS
you must first install the CYGWIN package
<snip>
(What's this "we" stuff, white man?)
I'm not real happy either with the way that Cygwin has to be
handled for those who just want to run Hercules on Windows. The
fundamental problem is that the Cygwin developers aren't interested
in people using it just as a way to run Linux software on Windows.
They're only interested in people using it to provide a Linux-style
environment on their Windows machines to be used as the main user
interface.
A myopic view.
As such, they don't cater to installing just the runtime stuff.
They make no attempt to identify what's needed and what isn't. If
you have problems, they expect you to install the normal stuff
before coming to them with questions.
Their stuff sometimes doesn't even install together without failing.
Some packages seem to be mutually exclusive when attempting to
install them at the same time but will install when selected
seperately.
Couple this with the fact that everything's GPLed, and so we can't
distribute just the stuff needed for Hercules without accepting a
huge burden of keeping lots of unneeded source around, and we're
left with the present situation as the result.
Understood. What tends to get us however, is we didn't install
CYGWIN on the laptop used for the I/O testing. We ran all the stuff
using only 5 or 6 CYGWIN binaries copied to the system. More may be
needed for other things like CYGNCURSES & CYGNREADLINE for C3270 to
run. No path or environmental variables changes were required. We
opened a DOS window, changed to the MVS38J directory and entered
STARTMVS and we were ready to go after starting the 3270s.
I don't like it, but I don't see a way around it.
Phil - I don't have a solution yet either - but I'm thinking about it





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Ivan Warren
2004-12-13 00:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Ok, LNK executables are still there in 3.02 release. It does "just
work" under CYGWIN bash shell, but not under DOS window (even with
CYGWIN in path).
The HERCULES home page does state in order to run under WINDOWS you
must first install the CYGWIN package. We feel this is an artificial
requirement imposed with the move to version 3. We believe the use
of LIBTOOL had a part in the "requirement" to install numerous &
multiple directories of files which tend to change frequently which
have nothing whatsoever to do with the Hercules binaries. Then again
we could be wrong.
Phil - keep it simple for us newbies
Phil,

hercules is an application designed to be executed in a POSIX-like
environment.

Windows, by itself, is *NOT* a POSIX-like environment, and offers semantics
that are very different (and probably *sometimes* incompatible) than a
POSIX-lke system (like linux, Unix(tm), Darwin, Hurd, xBSD, etc..). However,
once cygwin is installed using the relevant cygwin setup procedure, and
hercules and utilities are started from within that environment, all
documented procedures (including ckd2cckd and the like) should work as
expected.

As far as the '.LNK' issue us concerned, this has actually nothing to do
with libtool. This has to do with the fact that since dasdcopy is the root
executables for procedures like ckd2cckd, they are created using the POSIX
'symbolic link' mechanism (there is no need to clutter the disk with 10
copies of the exact same executable). Cygwin emulates this behaviour by
creating a 'Windows shortcut' (the closest thing) - but this emulation
truely works only when under control of the POSIX emulation (the cygwin
DLL)... So while a cygwin run 'bash' will properly match 'CKD2CCKD.EXE.LNK'
to the invocable 'ckd2cckd' executable (through the emulated execX system
call), this won't work using CMD.EXE (the native NT based shell - which
ultimatelly uses the Win32 API createProcess[1]) nor with Win 9X/Me
COMMAND.COM (which may use yet another method - just not sure about that).

The use of the 'libtool' technology was to relieve the developpers from
having to deal with internal aspects of dynamic loadable modules for each
platform variant (including, but not limited to cygwin). The original intent
of dynamic loadable modules was to allow more developpers to add features to
hercules without having to merge any new feature within the 'core' source
(think of those like 'plugins').. This hasn't come to that yet, because of a
lack of a static public interface between modules and the core - and the
drawback has been that hercules *must* be installed within a statically
defined tree hierarchy (unless you tweak certain environment variables
and/or configuration statements to suit your specific need - all this being
dependent on your hosting platform).

So the fact that cygwin should be properly installed in not an 'artificial'
requirement, but rather a true portability requirement - since hercules *is*
a POSIX based application.

So to keep it simple : Install cygwin as documented, and go from there !

As a side note : We do look and explore each and every possibility to do
without cygwin.. For example, we try as best as we can to do without most
GNU extensions.. But we heavily rely on POSIX, SuS etc.. Making hercules a
pure Win32 application is far more complicated - and would probably distract
the development effort from the original goal : design and provide a free,
specification compliant, useable, efficient and fully featured S/370, S/390
and z/Architecture emulator.

Last : Those opinions are my own and do not necesserally reflect the opinion
of the original authors, other developpers or the community at large.

--Ivan

[1] In stock Windows, LNK are executable if they link to an executable only
when invoked from the "Shell" interface - used for example by the windows
"explorer", not when invoked using a CreateProcess Win32 API call... TO have
it work with the Win 32 createProcess function, you must specify the entire
file name (that is neither CKD2CCKD, not CKD2CCKD.EXE but CKD2CCKD.EXE.LNK).



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-13 11:13:35 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Phil,
hercules is an application designed to be executed in a POSIX-like
environment.
Windows, by itself, is *NOT* a POSIX-like environment, and offers
semantics that are very different (and probably *sometimes*
incompatible) than a POSIX-lke system (like linux, Unix(tm),
Darwin, Hurd, xBSD, etc..). However, once cygwin is installed using
the relevant cygwin setup procedure, and hercules and utilities are
started from within that environment, all documented procedures
(including ckd2cckd and the like) should work as expected.
Tell me again, why should I have to deal with hundreds of files and
directories with frequently changing files when 6 files are all that
we need to run Hercules in a DOS window?
As far as the '.LNK' issue us concerned, this has actually nothing
to do with libtool. This has to do with the fact that since
dasdcopy is the root executables for procedures like ckd2cckd, they
are created using the POSIX 'symbolic link' mechanism (there is no
need to clutter the disk with 10 copies of the exact same
executable). Cygwin emulates this behaviour by creating a 'Windows
shortcut' (the closest thing) - but this emulation truely works
only when under control of the POSIX emulation (the cygwin DLL)...
So while a cygwin run 'bash' will properly match 'CKD2CCKD.EXE.LNK'
to the invocable 'ckd2cckd' executable (through the emulated execX
system call), this won't work using CMD.EXE (the native NT based
shell - which ultimatelly uses the Win32 API createProcess[1]) nor
with Win 9X/Me COMMAND.COM (which may use yet another method - just
not sure about that).
After thinking about it a bit more, realized LIBTOOL may not be the
rotten egg I like to think of it as. More than likely it is dynamic
binaries instead of static binaries. But then you might, as you
state, create 10 copies of the exact same executable. To our way of
thinking however, CCKD2CKD.bat would be just as good if not smaller
than CCKD2CKD.EXE.LNK for use under Windows.
The use of the 'libtool' technology was to relieve the developpers
from having to deal with internal aspects of dynamic loadable
modules for each platform variant (including, but not limited to
cygwin). The original intent of dynamic loadable modules was to
allow more developpers to add features to hercules without having
to merge any new feature within the 'core' source (think of those
like 'plugins').. This hasn't come to that yet, because of a lack
of a static public interface between modules and the core - and
the drawback has been that hercules *must* be installed within a
statically defined tree hierarchy (unless you tweak certain
environment variables and/or configuration statements to suit your
specific need - all this being dependent on your hosting platform).
Wrong.

Unzip Hercules 3.02 binaries into a single directory, add the six
CYGWIN binaries and Hercules seems to work just fine.

You do not have to have a multitude of files and directories which
turn out to be mutually exclusive or modify any paths or environment
variables if you wish to run various release versions of Hercules.
You simply use a different directory for a specific version of
Hercules and execute directly from there.

Just how would one unzip say, Hercules 3.01 and Hercules 3.02, in the
same environment (both seem to want to go to /usr/local) and be able
to specify which one should run at execute time?
So the fact that cygwin should be properly installed in not
an 'artificial' requirement, but rather a true portability
requirement - since hercules *is* a POSIX based application.
To compile Hercules from source on a Windows platform, yes, you need
to install CYGWIN. To run on a Windows platform, no, you only need a
very limited number (6) of CYGWIN files for Hercules to run. If I am
running Hercules on Windows, what need do I have to be concerned with
portability? I am an end-user dude.
So to keep it simple : Install cygwin as documented, and go from there !
Hmmm, as an end-user, CYGWIN is only a part of my life as Hercules
requires some of it's files to run. It should not require me to
change or alter my path or any variables which may affect other
things on my system. I'm a purist, one application, one directory,
one directory delete and I can start fresh without "you have multiple
instances of cygwin1 installed on your system, search here, do this
and that and maybe we'll work for you after that, then again maybe
not" showing up because perhaps I already use CYGWIN for something
else and am attempting to install the Turnkey CD which has it's own
CYGWIN it wants to execute (sorry to bring your fine work into this
Volker, but this one seems to bite newbies frequently).
As a side note : We do look and explore each and every possibility
to do without cygwin.. For example, we try as best as we can to do
without most GNU extensions.. But we heavily rely on POSIX, SuS
etc.. Making hercules a pure Win32 application is far more
complicated - and would probably distract the development effort
from the original goal : design and provide a free, specification
compliant, useable, efficient and fully featured S/370, S/390
and z/Architecture emulator.
Not asking for a pure WIN32, just tell me again why do I need
hundreds if not thousands of files when it seems I really only use 6
of them here?
Last : Those opinions are my own and do not necesserally reflect
the opinion of the original authors, other developpers or the
community at large.
--Ivan
[1] In stock Windows, LNK are executable if they link to an
executable only when invoked from the "Shell" interface - used for
example by the windows "explorer", not when invoked using a
CreateProcess Win32 API call... TO have it work with the Win 32
createProcess function, you must specify the entire file name (that
is neither CKD2CCKD, not CKD2CCKD.EXE but CKD2CCKD.EXE.LNK).
The current configure and build checks in numerous places whether it
is defined for Windows (CYGWIN) or not IIRC. Can the "LNK" files be
turned into "BAT" which call dasdcopy if it is a Windows build?

Phil - newbie at large





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Vaughn_
2004-12-13 11:38:38 UTC
Permalink
hi fellas,



just thinking, somebody can explain me why I have to create a link pack area the first time running MVS/???

r 00,clpa

regards, vaughn!



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Volker Bandke
2004-12-13 16:52:17 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Actually, what you create is a Pageable Link PAck Area. This consists of modules that are available to all address spaces. They are loaded into memory during CLPA processing, and immediately paged out to the page dataset. Should (parts of) them be needed at some later time, those parts will be paged in into the predetermined memory address, thus avoiding the need for program load. Also, as they are supposed to be rent,reus,refr they will never be paged-out again, as a working copy has been established on the page datasets already.



Should you modify a program that is in SYS1.LPALIB then this modification is not yet on the page dataset. The standard way to make the modification known is an IPL with CLPA

And yes, knowing a bit about the internals of MVS allows you (sometimes) to put a new version of the program into the system without doing an IPL at all. Sometimes, I say. Sometimes such an attempt will kill all of MVS (but then, of course, you can do an IPL with the CLPA option anyhow)







With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

"What if" is a trademark of Hewlett Packard, so stop using it in your sentences without permission, or risk being sued!

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


- -----Original Message-----
From: Vaughn_ [mailto:vaughn_croft-/E1597aS9LRfJ/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:39 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] mvs commands... question!




hi fellas,



just thinking, somebody can explain me why I have to create a link pack area the first time running MVS/???

r 00,clpa

regards, vaughn!



- ---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vaughn
2004-12-13 13:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Oks... thank you so much volker... I didn’t understand what you’ve said… but
you explained just the way I need… I will work on it…
Thnx a lot man!

_____

From: Volker Bandke [mailto:vbandke-YBl2UDX+LVZWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: segunda-feira, 13 de dezembro de 2004 Vaughn_ 13:52
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] mvs commands... question!


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Actually, what you create is a Pageable Link PAck Area. This consists of
modules that are available to all address spaces. They are loaded into
memory during CLPA processing, and immediately paged out to the page
dataset. Should (parts of) them be needed at some later time, those parts
will be paged in into the predetermined memory address, thus avoiding the
need for program load. Also, as they are supposed to be rent,reus,refr they
will never be paged-out again, as a working copy has been established on the
page datasets already.



Should you modify a program that is in SYS1.LPALIB then this modification is
not yet on the page dataset. The standard way to make the modification
known is an IPL with CLPA

And yes, knowing a bit about the internals of MVS allows you (sometimes) to
put a new version of the program into the system without doing an IPL at
all. Sometimes, I say. Sometimes such an attempt will kill all of MVS
(but then, of course, you can do an IPL with the CLPA option anyhow)







With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

"What if" is a trademark of Hewlett Packard, so stop using it in your
sentences without permission, or risk being sued!

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


- -----Original Message-----
From: Vaughn_ [mailto:vaughn_croft-/E1597aS9LRfJ/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:39 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [hercules-390] mvs commands... question!




hi fellas,



just thinking, somebody can explain me why I have to create a link pack area
the first time running MVS/???

r 00,clpa

regards, vaughn!



- ---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rupert
2004-12-15 01:28:43 UTC
Permalink
The LPA (Link Pack Area) is a part of common storage--a range of
memory addresses which is shared by any address spaces including
system, batch jobs and TSO Users.

If you reply ,CLPA then MVS Clears and rebuilds the LPA, but if you
don't then MVS re-uses whatever was in the page datasets the last time
MVS was running, which reduces the time taken to IPL. This is fine,
because LPA doesn't tend to change very often. CLPA is used when a
module in 'SYS1.LPALIB' has been altered (to copy the new version to
LPA), or when MVS is first run, because LPA has never been built before.

One of the points of LPA is that MVS code and other frequently used
stuff can be loaded into storage at IPL and 1 single copy is available
to every address space. They all share the same copy, meaning that it
isn't loaded from disk again. This saves time and memory. When you
have 700 TSO Users all logged-in at the same time, this saves a LOT of
time and memory!

Another benefit is that the program in LPA is protected against being
overwritten in memory by a bug in ordinary user programs.

As I remember it, MVS 3.8 has two types of LPA. FLPA (Fixed) is always
resident and ready in memory, even if not in use. PLPA is the
Pageable LPA, which means that if MVS needs memory for something else,
the memory can be borrowed. PLPA modules can be re-loaded when needed
because there will be copies in the page datasets.

As far as I know, replying ,CLPA rebuilds the PLPA only, because it
lives in the page datasets.

Roo






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Vaughn_
2004-12-15 13:11:13 UTC
Permalink
hi fellas...

thx a lot for supporting me in this main frame stuff... but I have some question about it... that I didn't find nowhere... so it's go...

why do I need to format jes2 area after the first time running MVS...
--->>> s jes2,,,parm='format,noreq'

and what means this noreq as parm/? what does it/?

as long, as I try to shutdown jes2, it says that the ' interface is not dormant'...
wht is that so/? And more... it says something about ' draining', what is that for/?

sorry by the lot of question!
this main frame stuff is very cool...

tnx for those made this possible... GOD bless you all!
Amen! rs!


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Jay Maynard
2004-12-15 14:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaughn_
why do I need to format jes2 area after the first time running MVS...
--->>> s jes2,,,parm='format,noreq'
The two datasets JES2 uses have to be initialized with empty records in the
format it expects to use before it can use them. The "format" tells JES2 to
do that at startup time. Once that's done, it doesn't need to be done again
unless one of a few JES2 initialization parameters is changed.
Post by Vaughn_
and what means this noreq as parm/? what does it/?
It suppresses a JES2 startup message that asks for operator requests. If you
don't specify it, you have to manually tell JES2 to begin processing. You
can see this for yourself: next time you IPL, instead of replying "noreq" to
the "ENTER PARAMETERS" message, just reply "u"...you'll see a message that
says "ENTER REQUESTS", and JES2 won't do anything until you enter the
command "$S".
Post by Vaughn_
as long, as I try to shutdown jes2, it says that the ' interface is not
dormant'... wht is that so/? And more... it says something about '
draining', what is that for/?
JES2 won't shut down until it's finished processing all of its work. That
means that all devices must be idle (printers, punches, and readers, for
this level of JES2), all initiators must be idle, and all started tasks
except for JES2 itself must be stopped. If you $PJES2 while something is
still active, you'll get the SYSTEM DRAINING message.
You can see what's active by entering the command $DU. If a device is
neither INACTIVE nor DRAINED, then it'll hold up shutdown.

You're probably being held up by RDR1, I'm guessing: if there are no card
decks on it at JES2 startup, it'll go into intervention required status and
stay there until you put a card deck on it. The best way to deal with that
is to have a file containing just one line of // , and then have that on the
reader in the Hercules config file. JES2 will read that card at startup, and
then the reader will become inactive.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Rupert
2004-12-15 19:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Maynard
If you $PJES2 while something is
still active, you'll get the SYSTEM DRAINING message.
It took me a while to understand that. In my case it was work queued
for printer1. These commands get issued on my system:

$s printer1
$s printer2

and as long as the printers are OK it's been shutting down cleanly. In
addition, I get the obvious benefit that anything printed ends up in a
file, such as prt00e.txt on my main system.

Roo





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Vaughn_
2004-12-15 18:45:15 UTC
Permalink
soo... I would like to know if there's a file taht control the prefix alias for creation datasets...

For exemple: I tried to create a dataset with the prefix tori555 and it says that alias for tori555 ntfnd -->>> I guess it means not found in alias something... right/? but with I try to create a dataset with a prefix with a name of a user... ie. herc01 or herc02, it works perfectly... so I was thinking there are such a file to control this creations/?

and other doubt... wht is the right way to shut mvs... I put:
f bsppilot,shutnow

and its seems to work perfectly... but I still can write commands at the console...and with this command it shutdown tso, vtam and mvs it self... I`ve seen it on shutnow member on parm lib... and I agreed with that... but this command doesn't shutdown jes2 right/?

so wht I need to do is shutdown mvs and jes2 only/?
and hercules after ipl, and after shutdown everthing I just need to ' stopall' and exit??? is that right/?

tnx all...


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Agora com 250MB de espaço gratuito. Abra uma conta agora!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Gordon Keehn
2004-12-15 19:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaughn_
soo... I would like to know if there's a file taht control the prefix alias for creation datasets...
For exemple: I tried to create a dataset with the prefix tori555 and it says that alias for tori555 ntfnd -->>> I guess it means not found in alias something... right/? but with I try to create a dataset with a prefix with a name of a user... ie. herc01 or herc02, it works perfectly... so I was thinking there are such a file to control this creations/?
The MVS Master Catalog must contain an ALIAS definition relating the
prefix to a specific USERCATALOG (for VSAM) or CVOL (for NONVSAM --
SYSGTLG.Vvolser, as I recall). The actual datasets will be cataloged in
the lower level catalog. One of the correlaries of this is that VSAM
and NONVSAM datasets may not begin with the same high-level qualifiers.
Post by Vaughn_
f bsppilot,shutnow
and its seems to work perfectly... but I still can write commands at the console...and with this command it shutdown tso, vtam and mvs it self... I`ve seen it on shutnow member on parm lib... and I agreed with that... but this command doesn't shutdown jes2 right/?
so wht I need to do is shutdown mvs and jes2 only/?
and hercules after ipl, and after shutdown everthing I just need to ' stopall' and exit??? is that right/?
tnx all...
Once D A,L shows no active jobs, then $PJES2 shuts down JES2 (may still
fail to shut down if a device (e.g. printer) is still working). When
JES2 has shut down, "Z EOD" flushes SMF buffers. At this point, the
system is effectively shut down, but the console will still respond to
commands (not that there is anything to interact with). Unless SMF data
is being kept for accounting or performance management (unlikely with
Tur(n)key?) once JES2 is shut down, it is safe to shut down Hercules or
reIPL.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Ivan Warren
2004-12-13 12:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Tell me again, why should I have to deal with hundreds of files and
directories with frequently changing files when 6 files are all that
we need to run Hercules in a DOS window?
Well.. You *CAN* do it.. But then don't expect hercules or any other POSIX
application compiled under cygwin to work as documented.
Post by halfmeg
After thinking about it a bit more, realized LIBTOOL may not be the
rotten egg I like to think of it as. More than likely it is dynamic
binaries instead of static binaries. But then you might, as you
state, create 10 copies of the exact same executable. To our way of
thinking however, CCKD2CKD.bat would be just as good if not smaller
than CCKD2CKD.EXE.LNK for use under Windows.
We could do this.. Indeed.. nothing wrong with this... That will address
issues with *your* specific hand-crafted setup...
Post by halfmeg
Wrong.
Unzip Hercules 3.02 binaries into a single directory, add the six
CYGWIN binaries and Hercules seems to work just fine.
*seems* is the master word here... This may work *today* - and using *your*
particular setup. But should something be changed, then the transition may
be painful.. You may be lacking a DLL somewhere.. Or you may pick up the
wrong DLL.. Or you may wind up with a mixture of various DLLs from different
versions. Furthermore, cygwin defines entries in the registry.. No doubt
cygwin expects the invoking DLLs to be the ones located in the original
installation directory(ies).. (No doubt cygwin defines shared/writeable
sections for such things as IPC.. And this doesn't work with multiple DLLs,
even with the same name (same name, different DLL handles)

This also requires *duplicating* the cygwin DLLs.. We cannot ship them so
this means the DLLs have to be located from the cygwin installation and
copied to your custom directory.. You wind up with a multitude of DLLs, in
different locations.. There is also NO GUARANTEE that copying cygwin DLLs
around is a safe thing to do (I'm pretty sure if you ask the cygwin list
about something that's gone wrong because you copied cygwin DLLs to your
liking - you are likely to get either no answer (at best) - or a nasty
answer).

Also, upgrading cygwin becomes a nightmare.

You are creating a hand-crafted runtime environment.. Don't complain if
things no longer work as expected !
Post by halfmeg
You do not have to have a multitude of files and directories which
turn out to be mutually exclusive or modify any paths or environment
variables if you wish to run various release versions of Hercules.
You simply use a different directory for a specific version of
Hercules and execute directly from there.
This doesn't work because
- ELF rpath (runtime path) are absolute
- Modules are loaded from an absolute path (Note : the PE executable Path is
a windowsism (that is, the path from which an executable was fetched for
execution). POSIX doesn't define anything as such - as far as I know).
Post by halfmeg
Just how would one unzip say, Hercules 3.01 and Hercules 3.02, in the
same environment (both seem to want to go to /usr/local) and be able
to specify which one should run at execute time?
Well, you either
- Compile hercules yourself
- Unzip hercules in a specific directory *AND* specify the absolute path
where to find the loadable modules

This is not a windows/cygwin only issue.. All platforms are affected.

Running different versions of hercules is not the average 'end-user'
concern.. However... this *could* be dealt with (but not in the way you
suggested)..
Post by halfmeg
Post by Ivan Warren
So the fact that cygwin should be properly installed in not
an 'artificial' requirement, but rather a true portability
requirement - since hercules *is* a POSIX based application.
To compile Hercules from source on a Windows platform, yes, you need
to install CYGWIN. To run on a Windows platform, no, you only need a
very limited number (6) of CYGWIN files for Hercules to run. If I am
running Hercules on Windows, what need do I have to be concerned with
portability? I am an end-user dude.
If you are an end user, you are better advised NOT to hand tweak your
runtime environment !

Just like.. Oh.. I'm an end user.. I realized MS Word only need the FOO.DLL
and BAR.DLL.. So I copied those to a new directory.. How come things don't
work as stated in the documentation anymore ?

..Or..

I am an end user.. I copied ASSEMBLE MODULE to my A disk... How come can I
no longer assemble my favorite assembler program (since the last upgrade to
CMS) ?

..Or..

I am an end user... I created a copy of /lib/libc.so.6 in my home
directory.. How come bash no longer works ?

.. Or ..

I realized hercules calls cygwin.dll, which in turns calls win32.dll and
kernel32.dll, so I also copies those to my specific hercules directory.. How
come hercules now behaves strangely ?

Sorry, but these are *not* end-user behaviours.. an end-user usually doesn't
try to create a custom environment by copying around system libraries or
executables. And if he does, he is on his own !
Post by halfmeg
Post by Ivan Warren
So to keep it simple : Install cygwin as documented, and go from there !
Hmmm, as an end-user, CYGWIN is only a part of my life as Hercules
requires some of it's files to run. It should not require me to
change or alter my path or any variables which may affect other
things on my system. I'm a purist, one application, one directory,
one directory delete and I can start fresh without "you have multiple
instances of cygwin1 installed on your system, search here, do this
and that and maybe we'll work for you after that, then again maybe
not" showing up because perhaps I already use CYGWIN for something
else and am attempting to install the Turnkey CD which has it's own
CYGWIN it wants to execute (sorry to bring your fine work into this
Volker, but this one seems to bite newbies frequently).
If you stick to the documented installation procedure, you don't ever have
to alter or tweak search path or configuration statements (pertaining to
your runtime environment). Only if you hand-craft your execution environment
(like copying runtime DLLs around or install hercules outside its intended
location) do you need to do so.

The Tur(n)key CD provided CYGWIN is a glitch. This comes from a time when we
had a slight different understanding of the cygwin runtime environment (and
the cygwin runtime environment *was* also different).. This will without
doubt be corrected in #4 (since 1- copying cygwin DLLs is not a supported
thing 2- because licensing prohibits distributing the cygwin runtime without
also providing the source. Volker - correct me if I am wrong)..
Post by halfmeg
Not asking for a pure WIN32, just tell me again why do I need
hundreds if not thousands of files when it seems I really only use 6
of them here?
If you want to be able to have all the files located in one directory, you
*CANNOT* use cygwin (because of various reasons stated above).. and this
*DOES* mean making hercules a pure Win32 application.
Post by halfmeg
Post by Ivan Warren
Last : Those opinions are my own and do not necesserally reflect
the opinion of the original authors, other developpers or the
community at large.
--Ivan
[1] In stock Windows, LNK are executable if they link to an
executable only when invoked from the "Shell" interface - used for
example by the windows "explorer", not when invoked using a
CreateProcess Win32 API call... TO have it work with the Win 32
createProcess function, you must specify the entire file name (that
is neither CKD2CCKD, not CKD2CCKD.EXE but CKD2CCKD.EXE.LNK).
The current configure and build checks in numerous places whether it
is defined for Windows (CYGWIN) or not IIRC. Can the "LNK" files be
turned into "BAT" which call dasdcopy if it is a Windows build?
Nothing wrong with this.. Just entirelly useless for *end users* - since
they will be installing cygwin & hercules as per documented installation
procedures - and running hercules within the proper runtime environment (at
which point, the .bat files are no longer needed).

If you have a procedure that copies the CYGWIN DLLs around, you may just as
well create your own .BAT files ! But copying the CYGWIN DLLs is just
something I would not recommend !

--Ivan



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Volker Bandke
2004-12-13 17:31:26 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ivan, Phil.


PMJI - The Cygwin DLL issue isn't as simple as it seems. First of all, it seems to work. Most of the time, that is. I have experienced strange errors, that have been fixed by really installing Cygwin instead of using the kludge that I tried in TK#3

Copying the CYGWIN DLLs to a directory is NOT a supported way of Cygwin installations, IOW, if things go wrong there will be no help from the ever so friendly and helpful Christopher Faylor (cfg). Among others the Cygwin mount table must be built, and operating parameters (like heapsize etc) might have to be altered. This means modifications to the windows registry. I tend to try to play it safe, thus a minimum install is called for.


For installing the Turnkey system, some utilities are needed. Bash is needed, perl for the Automount, for C3270, termcap is needed, etc etc etc etc etc


For the record - The TK4 will still be a Turnkey system. Everything will be included. i.e. there will be Cygwin, including source, and everything else. This will not fit on a single CD, but will require 2 or 3 CDS, or a DVD perhaps. I will probably also build an "upgrade" CD which will take your existing TK3 system and tries to update it more or less automatically to TK4




With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Truly great madness can not be achieved without significant intelligence. -- Henrik Tikkanen

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3

iQA/AwUBQb3R7R5trGyhAF0wEQKQlgCg5MC9OGmI9nQ/GL2rWwGFVFAJ8tEAoNmB
Kee1EwIszQjPwdys2iQNJxX4
=5Z73
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-13 20:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker Bandke
Ivan, Phil.
PMJI - The Cygwin DLL issue isn't as simple as it seems. First of
all, it seems to work. Most of the time, that is. I have
experienced strange errors, that have been fixed by really
installing Cygwin instead of using the kludge that I tried in TK#3
That is why in the initial message I posted concerning minimum CYGWIN
dlls I stated:

"Warning, Warning, the below method is not supported by anyone to my
knowledge."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/39598

There actually may be a problem, but I haven't posted about it until
further investigation. It could be a i586 vs i686 thing.
Post by Volker Bandke
Copying the CYGWIN DLLs to a directory is NOT a supported way of
Cygwin installations, IOW, if things go wrong there will be no help
from the ever so friendly and helpful Christopher Faylor (cfg).
Among others the Cygwin mount table must be built, and operating
parameters (like heapsize etc) might have to be altered. This
means modifications to the windows registry. I tend to try to play
it safe, thus a minimum install is called for.
Yes, I have read some of Faylor's responses and they are interesting
to say the least. As an proclaimed perpetual newbie, I know nothing
about the mount table and heapsize or max-memory limits, etc...

Is there a real reason I should know about any of that?
Post by Volker Bandke
For installing the Turnkey system, some utilities are needed. Bash
is needed, perl for the Automount, for C3270, termcap is needed,
etc etc etc etc etc
For the record - The TK4 will still be a Turnkey system.
Everything will be included. i.e. there will be Cygwin, including
source, and everything else. This will not fit on a single CD, but
will require 2 or 3 CDS, or a DVD perhaps. I will probably also
build an "upgrade" CD which will take your existing TK3 system and
tries to update it more or less automatically to TK4
<snip>
In a best distribution kind of way, one might hope for something very
similiar to SIM390. One file contains everything, perhaps passing a
parm on the execute line would specify # of consoles, terminals, etc
to start. But that would probably put us in the WIN32 executable,
non-portable type situation to some folks way of thinking.

I perfer to believe the end-user who knows nothing, sees nothing,
hears nothing, is very confused by CYGWIN, HERCULES, Operating System
environment pyramid. See the Herc notes (at least paragraph #1 & #3)
at SIM390:

http://musicm.mcgill.ca/sim390/http/hercnote.txt

We renamed our CYGWIN directory and installed the basic packages you
detail on your web page paragraph # 13 :

http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/hercules/herc_cygwin.html

We end up with 299 directories containing 490 files consuming 11.4MB
of disk. This is CYGWIN basic stuff, no Hercules files yet.

If one were to download the 6 binary tarballs from a CYGWIN mirror
site they consume respectively:

cygbz2-1 29k
cygiconv2 680k
cygintl-2 20k
cygintl-3 22k
cygwin1 1154k
cygz 61k

total 1.966MB

This is unpacked, but you would only pull the specific dll out which
was needed. Total 2.23MB.

One reason I am reluctant (should be much stronger phrase but this is
the family hour) to touch my real CYGWIN environment is that it
contains 9,110 directories with 57,319 files consuming 1.2GB, in
other words stuff other than Hercules that I should not have to put
at risk of not working anymore due to the latest CYGWIN flavor of the
day!!!!!!

Phil - this is and was never intended as a complaint just statement
of what we do here sometimes





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-13 21:35:21 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org,
"halfmeg" <***@h...> wrote:
- - - snipped - - -
Post by halfmeg
We renamed our CYGWIN directory and
installed the basic packages you detail
http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/hercules/herc_cygwin.html
We end up with 299 directories
containing 490 files consuming 11.4MB
of disk. This is CYGWIN basic stuff,
no Hercules files yet.
- - - snipped - - -

One of us has trouble following
instructions. Did you do both Category
and Full selections? I tried the same
thing and got:

Size: 56.3 MB (59,069,516 bytes )
Size on disk: 70.1 MB ( 73,576,448 bytes )
Contains: 4,848 Files, 361 Folders

Just my C:\CygWin\Package is 12.4 MB

My question is, why would you want:
bash
bzip2
cygwin-doc
grep
libbz2_1
libiconv2
libintl1
libintl2
libintl3
login
mc
netcat ( HercRDR may use? )
unzip
zip

I might suspect that cygwin and zlib
might be required?





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-14 15:48:23 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by halfmeg
We end up with 299 directories
containing 490 files consuming 11.4MB
of disk. This is CYGWIN basic stuff,
no Hercules files yet.
- - - snipped - - -
One of us has trouble following
instructions. Did you do both Category
and Full selections? I tried the same
Only specific packages were selected.

Yes sometimes I do have that problem. :-)

I did not include the cygwin-doc package. All of this was also
installed from a local directory. It is a pain to install CYGWIN via
dial-up connection, so I went to a broad-band connection some while
back and picked everything I needed ( this includes the C++ compiler
even though it is not needed for anything other than to satisfy
LIBTOOL - phuuuuugh).
Size: 56.3 MB (59,069,516 bytes )
Size on disk: 70.1 MB ( 73,576,448 bytes )
Contains: 4,848 Files, 361 Folders
Just my C:\CygWin\Package is 12.4 MB
bash
bzip2
cygwin-doc
grep
libbz2_1
libiconv2
libintl1
libintl2
libintl3
login
mc
netcat ( HercRDR may use? )
unzip
zip
I might suspect that cygwin and zlib
might be required?
This is part of a problem, as I see it. Developers have platforms
which check every day for updates to CYGWIN packages. When Hercules
is compiled, it links into CYGWIN executables and if "impure_xxx"
isn't there it dies (recent change in CYGWIN1.dll).

This type of thing forces the end-user, which shouldn't and normally
doesn't have a need or desire, to participate in wiring the internals
of the mainframe that was just placed in the computer room.

Does Hercules really call "impure_xxx" or is it because Hercules was
compiled with CYGWIN1.dll which just happens to use it in place of an
older routine? What I am curious about is whether or not Hercules
3.02 could be compiled with say CYGWIN 1.10.1 (or some other older
version) and still be opertional. Do developers look at a CYGWIN
update notification and say "hey, I can use this new thing now"?

Phil - is Hercules driving CYGWIN to fix problems in their code ?







------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-14 16:59:23 UTC
Permalink
--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org,
"halfmeg" <***@h...> wrote:
- - - snipped - - -
Post by halfmeg
I did not include the cygwin-doc package.
- - - snipped - - -

That is a good start. Now don't include
grep, login, mc, netcat, unzip, or zip and
you will have less files to delete from the
laptop.

Also put your Package directory where you
know to delete it on the laptop. I use:
C:\CygWin\Package

If you distribute, you will have to
include source for the CygWin .dll files.
Post by halfmeg
What I am curious about is whether or not
Hercules 3.02 could be compiled with say
CYGWIN 1.10.1 (or some other older version)
and still be opertional.
- - - snipped - - -

CygWin and Hercules have bugs. Older
releases tend to have more bugs than newer
releases and older releases tend to have
less support than newer releases.

Normally, you should use the newest code.

Since Hercules 3.02 was just released,
it might be wise to wait a few days for
problems to be found. I assume that
anything major would be found within less
than a week. I could assume wrong.





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Jay Maynard
2004-12-14 16:16:22 UTC
Permalink
What I am curious about is whether or not Hercules 3.02 could be compiled
with say CYGWIN 1.10.1 (or some other older version) and still be
opertional.
Probably not. The Cygwin libraries are somewhat notorious for not being
upwardly compatible.
Phil - is Hercules driving CYGWIN to fix problems in their code ?
Not directly; packages and package developers that don't subscribe fully to
the Cygwin philosophy of being a complete UI replacement for Windows are
third-class citizens, at best.


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Ivan Warren
2004-12-13 22:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Phil - this is and was never intended as a complaint just statement
of what we do here sometimes
Just a note :

Phil,

I hope (and actually think - but wanted to express it) that you didn't get
me wrong in my previous message(s)...

I do understand the concern : basically - if I understand correctly,
installing the whole nine yards of cygwin with bells and whistles just to
*run* hercules is overkill.. And also using the 'posix' style installation
on Windows looks unnecessary (more on this below)..

My concern is that because of how cygwin is designed, your approach is
unfortunatelly broken, since there is a chance cygwin (and unfortunatelly,
as a consequence, hercules) won't work properly if DLLs are simply copied.

Of course .. *THE* answer was provided by Ole Fishy.. We have to do
*without* cygwin.. Which means rewriting *enough* of the Posix functions we
use to support hercules using Win32 API functions.. Probably (as suggested)
start with MingW[1] (which is *NOT* GPLed - and not even LGPLed.. it is true
Public Domain) which uses the MSVCTR[2] runtime - leaving it to us to
implement the missing POSIX features (but Fish already started that part -
like, for example, the always so usefull fthreads - which is an invaluable
asset, especially when the cygwin folks decide to break posix threads once
again[3]!)

But I fear, until that glorious day, we will have to bear with cygwin..
Until then, this means installing cygwin using the cygwin provided setup
procedure - with all the extras we don't really need to run cygwin.

(the rest - thinking out loud - and may have overlooked something that
invalidates this)..

Now, about the hercules 'tree' style installation.. I need to look into
this.. Thinking about it all, it *may* be possible to do something closer to
what you are talking about.. that is, all binaries and DLLs in *ONE*
directory - auxiliary files in subdirectories thereof.. After all, Windows
is *NOT* a Un*x system.. (although this would STILL have to be under the
control of cygwin and under a subdirectory of the cygwin root for the time
being..[4]) and it would (for example) make it a whole lot easier for people
wanting to run simultaneously different versions of herc.

--Ivan

[1] MSVCRT is the Microsoft provided C Runtime Library (MicroSoft Visual C
RunTime) - and should be available on every system.. This runtime however
does have quirks - and is parting or lacking in a lot of areas from POSIX
specifications..

[2] Just in case some cygwin people or supporters are reading this... Again
don't get me wrong.. cygwin *IS* a fine product (or so I consider). But for
the task at hand - to *run* hercules, it is just too heavy. But, in our
case, to *compile* hercules, it is something of very high value.

[3] That is, to compile using GCC.. Now, if we ever want to use the MS
Visual C Compiler, we could probably do entirelly without MingW *or* cygwin
for this. (no intent to *drop* gcc support - but rather to *include* MS
VCC).

[4] Ok.. Something like
...
/myownherc/*.exe
/myownherc/*.bat (instead of .exe.lnk)
/myownherc/*.dll
/myownherc/html/*.html
etc...

This, however, requires some rework in some of the loadable modules aspects
and in the 'symlink' strategy.. And this would probably be an 'optional'
feature in producting the install package (I am sure we want to keep the
POSIX style installation still - even on windows). We also would have to
look for the loadable modules in a different way for this special case.



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-14 16:15:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivan Warren
Post by halfmeg
Phil - this is and was never intended as a complaint just
statement of what we do here sometimes
Phil,
I hope (and actually think - but wanted to express it) that you
didn't get me wrong in my previous message(s)...
I was trying to figure out how to respond and didn't want to say your
responce reminded me of Faylor. :-)
Post by Ivan Warren
I do understand the concern : basically - if I understand correctly,
installing the whole nine yards of cygwin with bells and whistles
just to *run* hercules is overkill.. And also using the 'posix'
style installation on Windows looks unnecessary (more on this
below)..
That is part of it. My responce to somitcw, just previous, explains
some more, maybe.
Post by Ivan Warren
My concern is that because of how cygwin is designed, your approach
is unfortunatelly broken, since there is a chance cygwin (and
unfortunatelly, as a consequence, hercules) won't work properly if
DLLs are simply copied.
Of course .. *THE* answer was provided by Ole Fishy.. We have to do
*without* cygwin.. Which means rewriting *enough* of the Posix
functions we use to support hercules using Win32 API functions..
Way to go Fish! I know this will not be a simple or quick thing to
do. It may however allow a broader base of folks running Hercules if
they can simply load and go on Windows (almost anyway), instead of
have I got this, have I got that, no that one is broken for this one,
etc...
Post by Ivan Warren
<snip>
Now, about the hercules 'tree' style installation.. I need to look
into this.. Thinking about it all, it *may* be possible to do
something closer to what you are talking about.. that is, all
binaries and DLLs in *ONE* directory - auxiliary files in
subdirectories thereof.. After all, Windows is *NOT* a Un*x
system.. (although this would STILL have to be under the control of
cygwin and under a subdirectory of the cygwin root for the time
being..[4]) and it would (for example) make it a whole lot easier
for people wanting to run simultaneously different versions of herc.
--Ivan
<snip>
[3] That is, to compile using GCC.. Now, if we ever want to use the
MS Visual C Compiler, we could probably do entirelly without MingW
*or* cygwin for this. (no intent to *drop* gcc support - but rather
to *include* MS VCC).
Hmm, didn't think about abandonment of CYGWIN altogether for running
Hercules. After thinking over the above however, perhaps they could
consider a native Win32 runtime instead of the CYGWIN shell and
attendant requirements.

Include VCC, does this mean another production compiler for Hercules ?
Post by Ivan Warren
[4] Ok.. Something like
...
/myownherc/*.exe
/myownherc/*.bat (instead of .exe.lnk)
/myownherc/*.dll
/myownherc/html/*.html
etc...
This, however, requires some rework in some of the loadable modules
aspects and in the 'symlink' strategy.. And this would probably be
an 'optional' feature in producting the install package (I am sure
we want to keep the POSIX style installation still - even on
windows). We also would have to look for the loadable modules in a
different way for this special case.
Phil - now this is what the forum is all about - discussion





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-14 00:06:43 UTC
Permalink
I don't know if this is the minimum,
but with seven .dll files in c:\CygWin\bin
I can run dasdcopy, Hercules, and MVS 3.8j.
C:\CygWin\bin>dir
Volume in drive C has no label.
Volume Serial Number is FCD5-B0EB
Directory of C:\CygWin\bin
12/13/2004 18:32 <DIR> .
12/13/2004 18:32 <DIR> ..
09/13/2004 23:16 55,808 cygbz2-1.dll
07/06/2004 13:11 1,015,128 cygiconv-2.dll
12/13/2001 04:33 22,016 cygintl-1.dll
08/10/2003 17:15 37,888 cygintl-2.dll
07/06/2004 12:56 55,612 cygintl-3.dll
11/10/2004 08:35 1,140,617 cygwin1.dll
10/09/2004 23:09 62,976 cygz.dll
7 File(s) 2,390,045 bytes

Hercules and MVS 3.8j were copied by copying:
c:\CygWin.good\usr\local
to
c:\CygWin\usr\local

Standard directories were used. PATH was not
changed from the previous install. The registry
was not updated from my previous install of:
cygwin: The UNIX emulation engine
zlib: The zlib compression and decompression library
( Which did not get cygbz2-1.dll, so I copied it
from my old c:\CygWin.good\bin )
Directory structure was left from my previous
install of:
cygwin: The UNIX emulation engine
zlib: The zlib compression and decompression library

An unzip of Hercules would still keep
standard directories.

i.e. No Mickey Mouse stuff. I have a new CygWin
and a new Hercules and MVS Tur(n)key #3 running.
Hercules is 2004-12-09 i686 fthreads
Post by halfmeg
Post by Volker Bandke
Ivan, Phil.
PMJI - The Cygwin DLL issue isn't as simple
as it seems. First of all, it seems to work.
Most of the time, that is. I have experienced
strange errors, that have been fixed by really
installing Cygwin instead of using the kludge
that I tried in TK#3
That is why in the initial message I posted
"Warning, Warning, the below method is not
supported by anyone to my knowledge."
- - - snipped - - -





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-14 16:19:47 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
An unzip of Hercules would still keep
standard directories.
i.e. No Mickey Mouse stuff.
<snip>
Phil - some folks know me as Newbie Mouse





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Volker Bandke
2004-12-14 20:22:58 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Ivan Warren
The Tur(n)key CD provided CYGWIN is a glitch.
Yes. Yes. And yes. Guilty on all charges.


The CD is called a Turnkey CD - insert the CD, run setup - off you go. No connection required to the internet. No prerequisite software required. A "turn the key and it runs" solution. Not perfect, but useable.
Post by Ivan Warren
Nobody, nothing is perfect.
true. See above. Especially true for me. Please remember, though, that the turnkey is built with newbies in mind: Follow the instructions. Remember when the first SMP/E based CBIPO came along? I tried to be clever and "improved" the sequence of jobs and actions. Oh boy, was I in or a surprise ...

What did I learn: Follow instructions. Don't try to improve the setup. If you break things that way, you may keep all the pieces. I have been learning. The beta phase for TK3 was painfully long, because there were still errors popping up that I hid there for the beta testers to feel useful :) When the beta phase was over, the first errors to pop up were encountered by people that had a later Cygwin version than the one on the CD, and setup didn't work any more. FAQ comes to existence, and the first fix, which uncoupled TK3 from the Cygwin release.


That is as it is today. I can run my Turnkey #3 and # 4 at any time. If I feel like getting a newer Cygwin - fine - I get it. No change to TK4 or Hercules needed. I feel like compiling Hercules - fine as well, no need to tweak Cygwin or Hercules.

One thing I did do - I have multiple machines with various different combination of Cygwin packages installed. I have dedicated dasd space on one server for the full Cygwin stuff, i.e. I have a local mirror of ALL the Cygwin packages. Whenever I need some package/setup/whatever on any of my machines, I get it from my local mirror. Saves a lot on bandwidth...


I am not in the bit-saving-on-harddrive business. I don't really care if the Cygwin package takes 12 MB, or 67, or 128. or even 1500/. I try to deliver a turnkey solution, with all bases covered. I intend to continue to do exactly that.


I wonder, how bitsavers & co would go at installing the turnkey if only the mentioned 6 or 7 Cygwin dlls were present on the CD. no ash. no tar. no zip. Have fun



Oh yes - one thing most people tend to forget - if Cygwin is so complicated - try Linux :)

....


just kidding



....

And I just looked at the signature for this msg. c "read" "follow" all :)

With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Beat's me!!! I never read the documentation.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3

iQA/AwUBQb9LoR5trGyhAF0wEQJNrwCfX9MQN568OM00xjoxx4pQJ3jDHmoAoKa2
V18+M5ITTTQAF5B2l89oodLz
=N2fI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
marspyrs
2004-12-15 11:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Volker -

Jumping in here... I agree with the "do what it takes to get the job
done" approach. Covering all bases in a Turnkey solution is, of
course, vital.

But I'm confused:
Do you run TK3 and TK4 on the same machine?
If a new release of Hercules comes out, do you run old and new
releases of Herc on the same machine? Are you saying that you can
run release 3.02 of Hercules with an older, non-current release of
Cygwin?

Even though I managed to create independent and unique Herc systems
on one computer with two different Cygs, it was difficult, and
people are saying it might fail in the future due to my copying of
Cyg modules (something I didn't realize when I did it). It sounds
like you have a better solution...

Dave M
(Not really a lean-and-mean bitsaver - I save almost everything:
Just starting to run out of space on my 160 gigabytes of online
disk, and slightly annoyed at the Cygwin gods dwelling on the
mountain tops, that apparently so many megabytes of Cyg had to be
included to run 3.02 at a time when I would like to conserve some
space and time, and focus on Herc and MVS... Normally, I download
everything "just in case I need it...").
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by Ivan Warren
The Tur(n)key CD provided CYGWIN is a glitch.
Yes. Yes. And yes. Guilty on all charges.
The CD is called a Turnkey CD - insert the CD, run setup - off you
go. No connection required to the internet. No prerequisite
software required. A "turn the key and it runs" solution. Not
perfect, but useable.
Post by Volker Bandke
Post by Ivan Warren
Nobody, nothing is perfect.
true. See above. Especially true for me. Please remember,
though, that the turnkey is built with newbies in mind: Follow the
instructions. Remember when the first SMP/E based CBIPO came
along? I tried to be clever and "improved" the sequence of jobs and
actions. Oh boy, was I in or a surprise ...
Post by Volker Bandke
What did I learn: Follow instructions. Don't try to improve the
setup. If you break things that way, you may keep all the pieces.
I have been learning. The beta phase for TK3 was painfully long,
because there were still errors popping up that I hid there for the
beta testers to feel useful :) When the beta phase was over, the
first errors to pop up were encountered by people that had a later
Cygwin version than the one on the CD, and setup didn't work any
more. FAQ comes to existence, and the first fix, which uncoupled
TK3 from the Cygwin release.
Post by Volker Bandke
That is as it is today. I can run my Turnkey #3 and # 4 at any
time. If I feel like getting a newer Cygwin - fine - I get it. No
change to TK4 or Hercules needed. I feel like compiling Hercules -
fine as well, no need to tweak Cygwin or Hercules.
Post by Volker Bandke
One thing I did do - I have multiple machines with various
different combination of Cygwin packages installed. I have
dedicated dasd space on one server for the full Cygwin stuff, i.e. I
have a local mirror of ALL the Cygwin packages. Whenever I need
some package/setup/whatever on any of my machines, I get it from my
local mirror. Saves a lot on bandwidth...
Post by Volker Bandke
I am not in the bit-saving-on-harddrive business. I don't really
care if the Cygwin package takes 12 MB, or 67, or 128. or even
1500/. I try to deliver a turnkey solution, with all bases
covered. I intend to continue to do exactly that.
Post by Volker Bandke
I wonder, how bitsavers & co would go at installing the turnkey if
only the mentioned 6 or 7 Cygwin dlls were present on the CD. no
ash. no tar. no zip. Have fun
Post by Volker Bandke
Oh yes - one thing most people tend to forget - if Cygwin is so complicated - try Linux :)
....
just kidding
....
And I just looked at the signature for this msg. c "read" "follow" all :)
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Beat's me!!! I never read the documentation.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3
iQA/AwUBQb9LoR5trGyhAF0wEQJNrwCfX9MQN568OM00xjoxx4pQJ3jDHmoAoKa2
V18+M5ITTTQAF5B2l89oodLz
=N2fI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Volker Bandke
2004-12-15 14:54:25 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Welcome to the club :)
Post by marspyrs
Do you run TK3 and TK4 on the same machine?
Yes, of course. Even at the same time :)
Post by marspyrs
If a new release of Hercules comes out, do you run old and new releases of Herc on the same machine?
yes, of course. But not at the same time. I unzip the snapshot/new version into its default place, and then start the hercules version from that snapshot. If it work, fine. If not, I revert to the previous version. Why I should run an older version of Hercules when a working newer version is available is beyond me, though :)
Post by marspyrs
Are you saying that you can run release 3.02 of Hercules with an older, non-current release of Cygwin?
No. You need the Cygwin that matches the newest Hercules version. sometimes it might be required to eve fallback to an older Cygwin release. Even that is possible!


I have installed CYGWIN on drive D:. i.e. everything went into D:\CYGWIN

I create an additional directory D:\CYGWIN.D with the subdirectories
home
root
setup
usr/local

(note that /usr/local?.... is the default directory for all things hercules. I move all the relevant data from the Cygwin into the CYGWIN.d tree

Then I run the following script

#/bin/bash
set -x
/bin/mkdir -p /home
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/bin
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/etc
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/lib
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/man
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/share
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/src
/bin/mkdir -p /root
/bin/mkdir -p /setup
/bin/mkdir -p /hercules
/bin/umount /usr/local/share
/bin/umount /usr/local/bin
/bin/umount /usr/local/etc
/bin/umount /usr/local/lib
/bin/umount /usr/local/man
/bin/umount /usr/local/src
/bin/umount /hercules
/bin/umount /setup
/bin/umount /home
/bin/umount /root
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\share /usr/local/share
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\bin /usr/local/bin
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\etc /usr/local/etc
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\lib /usr/local/lib
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\man /usr/local/man
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\src /usr/local/src
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\hercules /hercules
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\setup /setup
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\home /home
/bin/mount D:\\cygwin.d\\root /root

which places my new directory firmly into the CYGWIN tree.

I can now install a different version of Cygwin like this:

rename D:\CYGWIN to D:\CYGWIN.OLD

install new CYGWIN to D:\CYGWIN

My cygwin.d tree with all the hercules stuff is still in place....


I want to switch back? Just rename the CYGWIN main directories. Voila.
Post by marspyrs
Just starting to run out of space on my 160 gigabytes of online
disk, and slightly annoyed at the Cygwin gods dwelling on the
mountain tops, that apparently so many megabytes of Cyg had to be
included to run 3.02 at a time when I would like to conserve some
space and time, and focus on Herc and MVS..
Wrong approach :) Remember Pareto's law. I call it the 20-80 rule:

20 % of the people at a party drink 80 % of the beer

or


20% of file types or applications occupy 80% of the disk space. On a 160 GB HD system, Cygwin occupies 1% at most. I would check those DVD images. mp3 files, music CDs etc :)






With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Whoops, stepped on a frog.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3

iQA/AwUBQcBQIB5trGyhAF0wEQI/5gCfbK4Vi3DZ2OYKkC318ywR4HEDQqUAn3zC
WxL/81FiWKML5HlAMOKmhZJx
=Q7NB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
w steiner
2004-12-15 15:58:45 UTC
Permalink
thanks in advance !!!
Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Welcome to the club :)
Post by marspyrs
Do you run TK3 and TK4 on the same machine?
Yes, of course. Even at the same time :)
Post by marspyrs
If a new release of Hercules comes out, do you run
old and new releases of Herc on the same machine?
yes, of course. But not at the same time. I unzip
the snapshot/new version into its default place,
and then start the hercules version from that
snapshot. If it work, fine. If not, I revert to
the previous version. Why I should run an older
version of Hercules when a working newer version is
available is beyond me, though :)
Post by marspyrs
Are you saying that you can run release 3.02 of
Hercules with an older, non-current release of
Cygwin?
No. You need the Cygwin that matches the newest
Hercules version. sometimes it might be required to
eve fallback to an older Cygwin release. Even that
is possible!
I have installed CYGWIN on drive D:. i.e. everything
went into D:\CYGWIN
I create an additional directory D:\CYGWIN.D with
the subdirectories
home
root
setup
usr/local
(note that /usr/local?.... is the default directory
for all things hercules. I move all the relevant
data from the Cygwin into the CYGWIN.d tree
Then I run the following script
#/bin/bash
set -x
/bin/mkdir -p /home
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/bin
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/etc
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/lib
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/man
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/share
/bin/mkdir -p /usr/local/src
/bin/mkdir -p /root
/bin/mkdir -p /setup
/bin/mkdir -p /hercules
/bin/umount /usr/local/share
/bin/umount /usr/local/bin
/bin/umount /usr/local/etc
/bin/umount /usr/local/lib
/bin/umount /usr/local/man
/bin/umount /usr/local/src
/bin/umount /hercules
/bin/umount /setup
/bin/umount /home
/bin/umount /root
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\share
/usr/local/share
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\bin
/usr/local/bin
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\etc
/usr/local/etc
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\lib
/usr/local/lib
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\man
/usr/local/man
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\local\\src
/usr/local/src
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\hercules
/hercules
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\usr\\setup /setup
/bin/mount d:\\cygwin.d\\home /home
/bin/mount D:\\cygwin.d\\root /root
which places my new directory firmly into the CYGWIN
tree.
I can now install a different version of Cygwin like
rename D:\CYGWIN to D:\CYGWIN.OLD
install new CYGWIN to D:\CYGWIN
My cygwin.d tree with all the hercules stuff is
still in place....
I want to switch back? Just rename the CYGWIN main
directories. Voila.
Post by marspyrs
Just starting to run out of space on my 160
gigabytes of online
Post by marspyrs
disk, and slightly annoyed at the Cygwin gods
dwelling on the
Post by marspyrs
mountain tops, that apparently so many megabytes of
Cyg had to be
Post by marspyrs
included to run 3.02 at a time when I would like to
conserve some
Post by marspyrs
space and time, and focus on Herc and MVS..
Wrong approach :) Remember Pareto's law. I call it
20 % of the people at a party drink 80 % of the beer
or
20% of file types or applications occupy 80% of the
disk space. On a 160 GB HD system, Cygwin occupies
1% at most. I would check those DVD images. mp3
files, music CDs etc :)
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -.
;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ (
`'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Whoops, stepped on a frog.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3
iQA/AwUBQcBQIB5trGyhAF0wEQI/5gCfbK4Vi3DZ2OYKkC318ywR4HEDQqUAn3zC
Post by Volker Bandke
WxL/81FiWKML5HlAMOKmhZJx
=Q7NB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-15 19:23:35 UTC
Permalink
MVS Tur(n)key #3 is available from
http://www.cbttape.org

It doesn't have JES3 on it but you
can install JES3 from the files that
you down loaded.

MVS Tur(n)key #4 will have JES3 on
it but isn't available yet.

What format do you need the source
and MACROs in? Do you want to read
them on you PC under Windows, Linux,
or OSX? Do you want to read them on
an zOS, zVM, or VSE system?
Post by w steiner
thanks in advance !!!
- - - snipped - - -





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-15 23:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Instead of ordering the CD, why not
just down load the CD image from:
http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/

To avoid burning a CD, you can use:
http://www.daemon-tools.cc/
Post by somitcw
MVS Tur(n)key #3 is available from
http://www.cbttape.org
It doesn't have JES3 on it but you
can install JES3 from the files that
you down loaded.
MVS Tur(n)key #4 will have JES3 on
it but isn't available yet.
What format do you need the source
and MACROs in? Do you want to read
them on you PC under Windows, Linux,
or OSX? Do you want to read them on
an zOS, zVM, or VSE system?
Post by w steiner
thanks in advance !!!
- - - snipped - - -
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Norman Hollander
2004-12-15 23:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Anyone install z/VM from CDs on HERC?
Could you share how you did it? What
format is it in (DDR maybe)?




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-16 00:10:14 UTC
Permalink
I have never backed up zVM to a CD nor
restored zVM from a CD. If you have zVM
on a CD, why not look at the files to
see what format someone wrote them in?
Just the file names may give you a clue?
Did they write anything on the CD jacket?
Post by Norman Hollander
Anyone install z/VM from CDs on HERC?
Could you share how you did it? What
format is it in (DDR maybe)?
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Volker Bandke
2004-12-15 20:58:28 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

take a look at my turnkey website http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey







With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Reputation: what others are not thinking about you.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


- -----Original Message-----
From: w steiner [mailto:alt_timer-/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 4:59 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Cc: Volker Bandke
Subject: [hercules-390] ok guys, how+where can i order this
hercules+mvs3.8+jes3 and so on



thanks in advance !!!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3

iQA/AwUBQcClcx5trGyhAF0wEQJTWACg+ckRyLgm9U+3+Eypa0tJj2ZQE08AoP2S
bjSVO2c2fldnw0+y4AfSWEe8
=VSNW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
sginnane
2004-12-15 12:43:31 UTC
Permalink
As one who has never tried Herc under Windoze, I often wonder why
Volker puts up with all the shit he cops.

Think about how much effort he has put in, and how little other users
have contributed to the windows effort.

If you can't read, and follow, instructions, don't complain.

Go learn Linux - it's cheaper, better, and what Herc was written for.

Shane ...
Post by Volker Bandke
The CD is called a Turnkey CD - insert the CD, run setup - off you
go. No connection required to the internet. No prerequisite software
required. A "turn the key and it runs" solution. Not perfect, but
useable.
Post by Volker Bandke
...
I am not in the bit-saving-on-harddrive business. I don't really
care if the Cygwin package takes 12 MB, or 67, or 128. or even 1500/.
I try to deliver a turnkey solution, with all bases covered. I
intend to continue to do exactly that.
Post by Volker Bandke
I wonder, how bitsavers & co would go at installing the turnkey if
only the mentioned 6 or 7 Cygwin dlls were present on the CD. no ash.
no tar. no zip. Have fun
Post by Volker Bandke
Oh yes - one thing most people tend to forget - if Cygwin is so complicated - try Linux :)
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-15 13:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by sginnane
As one who has never tried Herc under Windoze, I often wonder why
Volker puts up with all the shit he cops.
Because he was and may still be Windows based, similiar to FISH.
Post by sginnane
Think about how much effort he has put in, and how little other
users have contributed to the windows effort.
Sometimes he may be a little short with some. He has put in large
amount of time and effort. The windows port was a collaborative
effort started before Volker discovered Hercules.
Post by sginnane
If you can't read, and follow, instructions, don't complain.
For some, there is a language barrier, others perhaps, a learning
curve, and a possibility of designer/developer mindset of the way it
is vs the way it could be (we're not just thinking Herc here - CYGWIN
is far and away the winner in "you must do it this way - how dare you
suggest an alternative which doesn't agree with our view of the
world".
Post by sginnane
Go learn Linux - it's cheaper, better, and what Herc was written for.
Herc probably started on LINUX, but was ported to Windows and now the
MAC. It never made it to OS/2 to my knowledge. Apart from web
servers, Windows still probably is installed on the largest number of
computer systems. Now you seem to be demanding that in order to run
one application, Hercules, they give up their other software which
may run only on Windows to make it simpler for who?
Post by sginnane
Shane ...
<snip>
Phil - meant to be a constructive response






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
sginnane
2004-12-15 13:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Post by sginnane
Think about how much effort he has put in, and how little other
users have contributed to the windows effort.
Sometimes he may be a little short with some. He has put in large
amount of time and effort. The windows port was a collaborative
effort started before Volker discovered Hercules.
No doubt - I have no wish to demean the contribution of any and all.
I get a furball when I see complaints about the efforts expended by some.
Post by halfmeg
(we're not just thinking Herc here - CYGWIN
is far and away the winner in "you must do it this way - how dare you
suggest an alternative which doesn't agree with our view of the
world".
Mmmm - an emulation API on top of a crap GUI on top of Bill Gates
finest O/S.
All that to run an emulator for another O/S that nobody has used in
the real world in ages.
You have yet to convince me.
Post by halfmeg
Now you seem to be demanding that in order to run
one application, Hercules, they give up their other software which
may run only on Windows to make it simpler for who?
Where did I say that ???.
I dual boot. I specifically installed Linux for Herc - to ameliorate
the affects of afore-mentioned emulation layers.
Moderate effort for major benefits - in all senses of the word.
Post by halfmeg
Phil - meant to be a constructive response
Likewise.





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-16 00:12:42 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by halfmeg
(we're not just thinking Herc here - CYGWIN
is far and away the winner in "you must do it this way - how dare
you suggest an alternative which doesn't agree with our view of
the world".
Mmmm - an emulation API on top of a crap GUI on top of Bill Gates
finest O/S.
All that to run an emulator for another O/S that nobody has used in
the real world in ages.
You have yet to convince me.
So don't think ages ago O/S, think Linux 390, TAO 390. And most of
all think of the savings to IBM internally if they don't have to
license FLEX-ES or z/OS for use with Hercules on Windows.

No need to convince you, it's just the way the world may actually be.
Post by halfmeg
Now you seem to be demanding that in order to run
one application, Hercules, they give up their other software
which may run only on Windows to make it simpler for who?
Where did I say that ???.
Think it was probably your statement:

"Go learn Linux - it's cheaper, better, and what Herc was written
for."
I dual boot. I specifically installed Linux for Herc - to ameliorate
the affects of afore-mentioned emulation layers.
Moderate effort for major benefits - in all senses of the word.
Everyone may not have the desire or resources to do the same as you.
Post by halfmeg
Phil - meant to be a constructive response
Likewise.
Phil - back to hermit mode for a while :-)





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Greg Smith
2004-12-16 01:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Post by sginnane
Where did I say that ???.
"Go learn Linux - it's cheaper, better, and what Herc was written
for."
Post by sginnane
I dual boot. I specifically installed Linux for Herc - to ameliorate
the affects of afore-mentioned emulation layers.
Moderate effort for major benefits - in all senses of the word.
Everyone may not have the desire or resources to do the same as you.
Both viewpoints have merit.

Yes, hercules was written to run on a posix compliant os and only a
posix compliant os and I for one would be happy if that were true today.

However, the cold hard facts show that by getting hercules to run under
windows, even with all the headaches cygwin has and will continue to
have, our user base has probably tripled. And that's probably a
conservative estimate.

So yeah, it would be really nice if everyone ran hercules on linux, or
rather, anything *but* windows, but it seems it will still be a few
years before the revolution is complete and the evil empire has
fallen ;-)

Greg





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
David Wade
2004-12-16 13:59:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Smith
Both viewpoints have merit.
Yes, hercules was written to run on a posix compliant os and only a
posix compliant os and I for one would be happy if that were true today.
In that case why does it take so much messing about to get it to work
on Solaris. Or have I missed something, and is Solaris not Posix
compliant? I guess you will say that defines which bit of POSIX, but
just because it compiles and runs on LINUX does not mean it is POSIX
complient:-). Do the developers just concentrate on LINUX or is POSIX
complience a goal? And even when I can get it running on Solaris SCSI
tape support is still btoken.
Post by Greg Smith
However, the cold hard facts show that by getting hercules to run under
windows, even with all the headaches cygwin has and will continue to
have, our user base has probably tripled. And that's probably a
conservative estimate.
So yeah, it would be really nice if everyone ran hercules on linux, or
rather, anything *but* windows, but it seems it will still be a few
years before the revolution is complete and the evil empire has
fallen ;-)
I have both Solaris and Windows available at home. Because of CYGWIN
it is much earier to get Hercules working on Windows. Now FISH has
fixed tape support I am in the process of moving my tape drives from
my Solaris machine to my windows machines. Appart from these being
much faster than the old SparcStation20, having "real" tape support
as well will be great.
Post by Greg Smith
Greg
Dave.





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-13 20:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
Not asking for a pure WIN32, just tell
me again why do I need hundreds if not
thousands of files when it seems I
really only use 6 of them here?
It's your lap-top and if you want to
save approximanently 100MB of disk space
by not installing minimal CygWin, that
is your option. My CygWin code is getting
close to 300MB. 100MB might be a large
amount of disk space for some lap-tops.
The disk space savings might make sense
in your particular case? Might not?

Your wish to not use standard
directories is entirely another issue.
It does not save space, does not make
install easier, does not make debugging
easier, and has no advantage.





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Greg Smith
2004-12-12 18:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by halfmeg
When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help" the normal help display
appears.
The utility you should be using is dasdcopy. cckd2ckd and ckd2cckd are
just links to dasdcopy. This change was made a few releases ago.

Greg



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
halfmeg
2004-12-12 23:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Smith
Post by halfmeg
When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help" the normal help display
appears.
The utility you should be using is dasdcopy. cckd2ckd and ckd2cckd
are just links to dasdcopy. This change was made a few releases
ago.
Greg
Ok, so I'm old and set im my ways. It is simple to remember that
CCKD2CKD decompresses DASD. That the LNK version probably passes the
decompress option to dasdcopy.

The "Compressed DASD Emulation" page here:

http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/cckddasd.html

probably needs an update as DASDCOPY is nowhere to be found.

Normal help is all I need most of the time. You know does input file
come before output file in command syntax, are there options I must
enter or can I take the defaults, etc...

For those times when I need extra-ordinary help, I post here.

Phil - two replies in one for this one





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
somitcw
2004-12-12 19:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Note where the command prompt is:

cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help
C:\Cygwin\usr\local\bin>usage: dasdcopy [-options] ifile [sf=sfile]
ofile
copy a dasd file to another dasd file
- - - snipped - - -

You call this "the normal help display"?
Post by halfmeg
During a recent experiment we wanted
to use CCKD2CKD to decompress some
compressed DASD images. Imagine our
surprise when we entered the command
"CCKD2CKD --help" to get the syntax
"'cckd2ckd' is not recognized as an
internal or external command,
operable program or batch file."
When we entered "cckd2ckd.exe.lnk --help"
the normal help display appears.
This was from a snapshot not the just
released 3.02 but imagine the "lnk"
executables are still there.
Phil - does LIBTOOL do this helpful
stuff for everyone ?
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Gerhard Postpischil
2004-12-15 14:26:52 UTC
Permalink
----- Original Message -----
why do I need to format jes2 area after the first time running MVS...
--->>> s jes2,,,parm='format,noreq'
and what means this noreq as parm/? what does it/?
JES2 is designed to use fixed size blocks on disk. In combination with the
device geometry, this allows it to access any block on any spool pack with
one 32-bit number (MTTR - M: 8 bit pack number relative to zero, TT: 16 bit
track number, R: record on track). To make this work, it first needs to
write all those blocks, containing zeroes, the first time. This is done
with
the 'format' option. It will also flag defective tracks to prevent them
from
being used.

'noreq' tells it not to bother you with a lot of questions (e.g.,
checkpoint
data set is locked - proceed Y/N; OK to use checkpoint; etc.). If you want
to see those, just omit the ",noreq' and respond appropriately.
as long, as I try to shutdown jes2, it says that the ' interface is not
dormant'...
wht is that so/? And more... it says something about ' draining', what is
that for/?
JES2 maintains a chain of processor control blocks ($PCE). These control
the
work JES2 does. There's one for each reader, printer, initiator, etc.;
additionally JES2 (but not the predecessor HASP) tracks started jobs and
TSO
sessions. The $PCE may be in active state (doing work), waiting for work,
stopped (drained), or waiting to stop while still busy - the last is the
"draining" state. In order to go "dormant", everything needs to be stopped.
You didn't say how you tried to shut down. If you use Volkers' "F
BSPPILOT,SHUTDOWN" or a variation (SHUTNOW) it may take several minutes to
complete the shutdown. You must ensure that there are no outstanding
requests that might keep a $PCE from draining (typically INT.REQ. 00C -
waiting on the card reader). There are several commands (in the
documentation) that allow you to check for unterminated tasks (D A,L) and
draining $PCEs, $DU,dev etc.). If it's any consolation, every once in a
while something nasty happens (abend or I/O error), and even a production
system won't come down. In that case issue a Z EOD (Halt End-of-Day) to
close the SMF data set, and QUIESCE.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/W4wwlB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Loading...