Discussion:
Newbie needs a lot of answers please
(too old to reply)
mithrandrir2001
2003-01-29 21:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Guys,

I want to use Hercules for training purposes. Can someone answer
these questions please:
I have genuine licences for all IBM sotware, so can I load TSO, VTAM,
Netview, OPCA, CICS etc.

What is the best PC spec bearing in mind the amount of software to be
loaded on.(money no object. Well........)
What is the best O/S to use on the PC (Windows, NT or Linux)
Do I need software programmer assistance to load it.
Can it truly emulate? I ask this because I want to simulate spin
loops, IPL's, manual shutdown and try to create as many errors as
possible.
I know there are a lot of questions but I'm sure you guys can answer
these for me.
Much appreciated, thanks.

Ian
S. Vetter
2003-01-29 22:35:36 UTC
Permalink
I can answer some of them.
Post by mithrandrir2001
Hi Guys,
I want to use Hercules for training purposes. Can someone answer
I have genuine licences for all IBM sotware, so can I load TSO, VTAM,
Netview, OPCA, CICS etc.
That's great, but how did you do that?
Post by mithrandrir2001
What is the best PC spec bearing in mind the amount of software to be
loaded on.(money no object. Well........)
What is the best O/S to use on the PC (Windows, NT or Linux)
Linux is the better choice in my opinion. Windows from the messages I
see as of late has problems.
Post by mithrandrir2001
Do I need software programmer assistance to load it.
It' best as well as to run it and modify it.
Post by mithrandrir2001
Can it truly emulate?
To a high degree, yes.
Post by mithrandrir2001
I ask this because I want to simulate spin
loops, IPL's, manual shutdown and try to create as many errors as
possible.
Well if you are not familiar with the OS, you will experience a few...
:-))
Post by mithrandrir2001
I know there are a lot of questions but I'm sure you guys can answer
these for me.
Much appreciated, thanks.
Scott
mithrandrir2001
2003-01-30 16:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Scott.
In reply to your licensing query, easy, I work for IBM.
I will go Linux.

Thanks again,

Ian
S. Vetter
2003-01-30 16:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Glad to have been able to help. If you need additional assistance, just ask.

A good way on how to get a license. Wish we had the ability. Hey, how about
a trade? Assistance for a license :-))

Scott
Post by mithrandrir2001
Thanks Scott.
In reply to your licensing query, easy, I work for IBM.
I will go Linux.
Thanks again,
Ian
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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s***@public.gmane.org
2003-01-29 22:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by mithrandrir2001
Hi Guys,
I want to use Hercules for training purposes. Can someone answer
I have genuine licences for all IBM sotware, so can I load TSO, VTAM,
Netview, OPCA, CICS etc.
What is the best PC spec bearing in mind the amount of software to be
loaded on.(money no object. Well........)
Faster CPUs is better. More CPUs is better. I tend to prefer AMD over
Intel (bang for buck), but I'd take advice for more than two CPUs.
Post by mithrandrir2001
What is the best O/S to use on the PC (Windows, NT or Linux)
Linux. People will say I'm biased, even though I believe I have sound
technical reasons to prefer Linux or almost anything over Windows.

Prefer the latest release of your chosen distro, and if you haven't
chosen a distro, Red Hat is an excellent starting-point.
Post by mithrandrir2001
Do I need software programmer assistance to load it.
Can it truly emulate? I ask this because I want to simulate spin
loops, IPL's, manual shutdown and try to create as many errors as
possible.
Someone here wrote a short treatise on why Flex is better, but I don't
recall the details. In Herc we don't have real memory so if the way real
memory works matters.... Things of that kind. Think of things that vary
from one model to another.


You may also have a licence issue. I suspect getting a licence from IBM
for you to run on this hardware. If you're sure your licence does, then
obviously this isn't an issue for you.
--
Cheers
John.

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mithrandrir2001
2003-01-30 16:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Thanks John.
Marian Gasparovic
2003-01-30 15:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to next
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real hardware it
detects end of tape and asks for next tape, but under
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after 2GB
written. How can this be solved ?
BTW when I tried the same with .het file, it failed
after about 300MB (I don't remember).
Thank you


=====
===================
Marian Gasparovic
===================
"The mere thought hadn't even begun to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind."



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s***@public.gmane.org
2003-01-30 15:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to next
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real hardware it
detects end of tape and asks for next tape, but under
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after 2GB
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running Hercules on.

In recent Linux distributions there should not be a problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2 supports files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,

If this requires a change to Hercules, then I suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Marian Gasparovic
2003-01-30 15:20:28 UTC
Permalink
Right, I forgot to mention it is under Linux. But it
doesn't metter, it is more important to know if I can
simulate various lenghts of tapes to MVS.
Marian
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to
next
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real hardware it
detects end of tape and asks for next tape, but
under
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after 2GB
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running Hercules
on.
In recent Linux distributions there should not be a
problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2 supports
files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,
If this requires a change to Hercules, then I
suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
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Marian Gasparovic
2003-01-31 14:55:56 UTC
Permalink
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who can tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under Hercules ?
And how ?
thank you
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Right, I forgot to mention it is under Linux. But it
doesn't metter, it is more important to know if I
can
simulate various lenghts of tapes to MVS.
Marian
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to
next
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real hardware
it
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
detects end of tape and asks for next tape, but
under
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after
2GB
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running
Hercules
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
on.
In recent Linux distributions there should not be
a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2 supports
files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,
If this requires a change to Hercules, then I
suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list
at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Post by Marian Gasparovic
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Marian Gasparovic
2003-01-31 15:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who can
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under Hercules ?
And how ?
thank you
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Right, I forgot to mention it is under Linux. But
it
Post by Marian Gasparovic
doesn't metter, it is more important to know if I
can
simulate various lenghts of tapes to MVS.
Marian
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to
next
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real
hardware
Post by Marian Gasparovic
it
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
detects end of tape and asks for next tape,
but
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
under
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after
2GB
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running
Hercules
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
on.
In recent Linux distributions there should not
be
Post by Marian Gasparovic
a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2
supports
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,
If this requires a change to Hercules, then I
suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses"
list
Post by Marian Gasparovic
at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
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Seeker;SP
2003-01-31 16:37:56 UTC
Permalink
If I understood what you meant, That´s depends on the OS you are running
under Herc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marian Gasparovic" <marosg-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] tapes and 2GB
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who can
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under Hercules ?
And how ?
thank you
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Right, I forgot to mention it is under Linux. But
it
Post by Marian Gasparovic
doesn't metter, it is more important to know if I
can
simulate various lenghts of tapes to MVS.
Marian
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to
next
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real
hardware
Post by Marian Gasparovic
it
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
detects end of tape and asks for next tape,
but
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
under
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after
2GB
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running
Hercules
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
on.
In recent Linux distributions there should not
be
Post by Marian Gasparovic
a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2
supports
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,
If this requires a change to Hercules, then I
suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses"
list
Post by Marian Gasparovic
at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
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laddiehanus
2003-01-31 17:23:19 UTC
Permalink
A check would need to be added in tapedev.c to issue a unit exception
after a number of bytes have been written (200Mb for 3480, havent used
a 3420 in years so I dont remember what the size was). Then processing
to present LEOT and PEOT would be needed also. Until then you would
have to code your application to do eov processing after your tape
size is written.

Laddie Hanus

If someone has the time, I sure dont.
Post by Seeker;SP
If I understood what you meant, That´s depends on the OS you are running
under Herc.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] tapes and 2GB
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who can
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under Hercules ?
And how ?
thank you
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Right, I forgot to mention it is under Linux. But
it
Post by Marian Gasparovic
doesn't metter, it is more important to know if I
can
simulate various lenghts of tapes to MVS.
Marian
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hi all,
how can I tell MVS under hercules to switch to
next
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tape when it writes 2GB on it? On real
hardware
Post by Marian Gasparovic
it
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
detects end of tape and asks for next tape,
but
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
under
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Hercules it writes and writes and fails after
2GB
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
Post by Marian Gasparovic
written. How can this be solved ?
You neglected to say what OS you're running
Hercules
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
on.
In recent Linux distributions there should not
be
Post by Marian Gasparovic
a
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
problem; the
combination of 2.4 kernels and glibc 2.2
supports
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by s***@public.gmane.org
files somewhat bigger
than 2 Gbytes,
If this requires a change to Hercules, then I
suggest it be a
configurable item.
--
Cheers
John.
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses"
list
Post by Marian Gasparovic
at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
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Juan Clemente Eraña
2003-02-01 03:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Marian,

I think multivolume tape support should be added to tapedev.c

I suppose Hercules should return a sense information indicating the
end-of-reel condition, for example
SENSE BYTE 4
bit0 . ALU HDWR ERROR
bit1 . REJ TAPE UNIT
bit2 x TAPE INDICATE <===
bit3 . WRITE TRGGR VRC
bit4 . MICROPGM DET ERROR
bit5 . LWR ERROR
bit6 . TAPE UNIT CHK
bit7 . RES RPQ

In a a no-more-space-in-tape condition Hercules should return
the Tape indicate sense info instead of Equipement Check, so the
Operating System can ask for the next tape.

Instead of a 2 GB disk file I used a 720K 3.5 diskette as a tape, I
think that it's a similar condition (no more space).

When the diskette became full I received an Equipement Check:

At VM/370 console (OPERATOR):
DMKTAP503I TAPE 480 EQUIP CK CMD= 01
SNS= 1040002900C003000000000000800100010000FFFF000000
CSW= 00F0A5D8 0E000000 USERID= MAINT

At Hercules console:
HHCPN098I Device 0480 initialized
HC209I Error writing data block at offset 000B232C in file
A:/tap1.aws: No spac
HHCCP048I 0480:CCW=01E57953 20800325=>02C3D4E2 4002E3E7 E3400002
E4404000 .CMS .
HHCCP075I 0480:Stat=0E00 Count=0000
HHCCP076I 0480:Sense=10400029 00C00300 00000000 00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0480:Sense=EQC ITF

Regards

Juan
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who can
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under Hercules ?
And how ?
thank you
Marian
Marian Gasparovic
2003-02-20 16:36:42 UTC
Permalink
These are opinions how to make multivolume tape
support to Hercules. Which is correct ? Is there
anybody capable to implement it ? I have time, but no
knowledge :(((

Marian
Post by laddiehanus
A check would need to be added in tapedev.c to issue
a unit exception
after a number of bytes have been written (200Mb for
3480, havent used
a 3420 in years so I dont remember what the size
was). Then processing
to present LEOT and PEOT would be needed also. Until
then you would
have to code your application to do eov processing
after your tape
size is written.
----------------------------------------------
Post by laddiehanus
I think multivolume tape support should be added to
tapedev.c
I suppose Hercules should return a sense information
indicating the
end-of-reel condition, for example
SENSE BYTE 4
bit0 . ALU HDWR ERROR
bit1 . REJ TAPE UNIT
bit2 x TAPE INDICATE <===
bit3 . WRITE TRGGR VRC
bit4 . MICROPGM DET ERROR
bit5 . LWR ERROR
bit6 . TAPE UNIT CHK
bit7 . RES RPQ
In a a no-more-space-in-tape condition Hercules
should return
the Tape indicate sense info instead of Equipement
Check, so the
Operating System can ask for the next tape.
Instead of a 2 GB disk file I used a 720K 3.5
diskette as a tape, I
think that it's a similar condition (no more space).
When the diskette became full I received an
DMKTAP503I TAPE 480 EQUIP CK CMD= 01
SNS=
1040002900C003000000000000800100010000FFFF000000
CSW= 00F0A5D8 0E000000 USERID= MAINT
HHCPN098I Device 0480 initialized
HC209I Error writing data block at offset 000B232C
in file
A:/tap1.aws: No spac
HHCCP048I 0480:CCW=01E57953 20800325=>02C3D4E2
4002E3E7 E3400002
E4404000 .CMS .
HHCCP075I 0480:Stat=0E00 Count=0000
HHCCP076I 0480:Sense=10400029 00C00300 00000000
00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0480:Sense=EQC ITF
Regards
Juan
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who
can
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under
Hercules ?
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
And how ?
thank you
Marian
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Ronald Tatum
2003-02-20 20:00:58 UTC
Permalink
Marian,
A bit of detail re the old 3420 tapes: If one assumes a 2400 ft. reel,
6250 bpi, that's 28800 inches for about 180000000 bytes max (and would
require ~2747 data-chaining CCWs to write a single record that long!). More
realistically, assume one only uses single CCWs which can pump 65K
bytes/physical record on tape; ISO, as I remember, used to say that 0.6
inches was required for the inter-record gap between physical records on
tape, so each record would need ~10.5" for data + 0.6" IRG =>~2598 such data
entities/tape reel for about 170MB total on a "standard" reel (I've seen
custom tapes that had 3600' of *very* thin tape on a 12" diameter reel, but
let's don't go there ...)
Now, here's the logical conundrum I have when I think about simulated
tape I/O: The 3420 (and its predecessors, don't know about successors) only
returned "EOT reflective marker encountered last operation" status on a
"write-type" operation - never on a "read-type" operation. Thus, the program
writing data to a tape was supposed to recognize that hardware condition and
immediately write two end-of-file marks on the tape and do whatever was
supposed to be done about an end-of-physical-reel condition for its
purposes. Any program that read tapes was supposed to recognize that two
EOFs in a row *usually* signified end-of-data on the tape reel. The hardware
wouldn't "tell" the reading program that it was about to get into real
physical trouble. If the *writing* program didn't follow that convention, of
course, bad things happened - the tape was ripped off the supply reel and
operators got mad, etc., etc. So, since there is no symmetry between
reading and writing on a tape, and in any case the hardware never knew nor
cared how much data was on a tape (or could be), just that someone tried to
write beyond the EOT reflective marker, how *should* one simulate operations
on a "virtual" tape on a "virtual" machine simulating the real thing? I
really don't have any suggestions - all the schemes I thnk of I can
immediately object to; I guess I had bad early life training ;-).

Regards,
ROn Tatum
I ----- Original Message -----
From: "Marian Gasparovic" <marosg-/***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: tapes and 2GB
Post by Marian Gasparovic
These are opinions how to make multivolume tape
support to Hercules. Which is correct ? Is there
anybody capable to implement it ? I have time, but no
knowledge :(((
Marian
Post by laddiehanus
A check would need to be added in tapedev.c to issue
a unit exception
after a number of bytes have been written (200Mb for
3480, havent used
a 3420 in years so I dont remember what the size
was). Then processing
to present LEOT and PEOT would be needed also. Until
then you would
have to code your application to do eov processing
after your tape
size is written.
----------------------------------------------
Post by laddiehanus
I think multivolume tape support should be added to
tapedev.c
I suppose Hercules should return a sense information
indicating the
end-of-reel condition, for example
SENSE BYTE 4
bit0 . ALU HDWR ERROR
bit1 . REJ TAPE UNIT
bit2 x TAPE INDICATE <===
bit3 . WRITE TRGGR VRC
bit4 . MICROPGM DET ERROR
bit5 . LWR ERROR
bit6 . TAPE UNIT CHK
bit7 . RES RPQ
In a a no-more-space-in-tape condition Hercules
should return
the Tape indicate sense info instead of Equipement
Check, so the
Operating System can ask for the next tape.
Instead of a 2 GB disk file I used a 720K 3.5
diskette as a tape, I
think that it's a similar condition (no more space).
When the diskette became full I received an
DMKTAP503I TAPE 480 EQUIP CK CMD= 01
SNS=
1040002900C003000000000000800100010000FFFF000000
CSW= 00F0A5D8 0E000000 USERID= MAINT
HHCPN098I Device 0480 initialized
HC209I Error writing data block at offset 000B232C
in file
A:/tap1.aws: No spac
HHCCP048I 0480:CCW=01E57953 20800325=>02C3D4E2
4002E3E7 E3400002
E4404000 .CMS .
HHCCP075I 0480:Stat=0E00 Count=0000
HHCCP076I 0480:Sense=10400029 00C00300 00000000
00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0480:Sense=EQC ITF
Regards
Juan
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who
can
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under
Hercules ?
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
And how ?
thank you
Marian
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mvandere
2003-02-20 20:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Tatum
how *should* one simulate operations
on a "virtual" tape on a "virtual" machine simulating the real
thing? I
Post by Ronald Tatum
really don't have any suggestions - all the schemes I thnk of I can
immediately object to; I guess I had bad early life training ;-).
Virtual tape drives have been around a while now. They usually allow
200Meg on a 3480, but since they compress the stuffing out of the
data you sometimes get 1.5Gig on a tape, i.e. there's no way you
could ever put the data on one real 3480.

So.. Just on write, allow 200Mb then present tape mark, if you get to
220Mb present loss of vacuum tube pressure. On read, present loss of
vacuum tube pressure after EOF (that is, after both tape marks have
been read)

BTW Double tape marks are valid on VSE Idcams backup/restore tapes.
How does the software detect EOT in this case?

Mark


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Ronald Tatum
2003-02-21 01:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Mark,
So long as anyone wanting to avail themselves of the scheme you propose
is willing to live with the admittedly ad hoc nature of the convention,
fine. But there is still the problem of some poor misguided soul that thinks
that a software simulation of some piece of hardware can ever be completely
accurate - hopefully they are few and understanding.

As far as the double tape marks problem under VSE, I suggest you look at
what Sam Golob has done for the problem engendered under the various flavors
of OS (as opposed to DOS varieties) when one somehow tries to unload a PDS
with "empty" members - one winds up with two file marks in a row with data
past them. He has apparently solved the problem.

As far as how software under VSE goes, could someone explain to me *why*
either or both "normal" tapes and POWER tapes apparently have a leading tape
mark on them, but standard labeled tapes under OS have a volume label
followed by a tape mark, possibly followed by data set header labels/user
labels followed by the actual data set on the tape, followed by a tape
mark,... , and conventionally end all data on the tape with a double EOF
mark?

For that matter, why didn't they make the hardware return "EOT
reflective marker encountered" on both reads and writes? Were their margins
so tight when they first built tape drives the way they aparently continue
to do that the additional circuitry would have broken IBM's bank? [8-))]

Ron T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <mvandere-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:59 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: tapes and 2GB
Post by Ronald Tatum
Post by Ronald Tatum
how *should* one simulate operations
on a "virtual" tape on a "virtual" machine simulating the real
thing? I
Post by Ronald Tatum
really don't have any suggestions - all the schemes I thnk of I can
immediately object to; I guess I had bad early life training ;-).
Virtual tape drives have been around a while now. They usually allow
200Meg on a 3480, but since they compress the stuffing out of the
data you sometimes get 1.5Gig on a tape, i.e. there's no way you
could ever put the data on one real 3480.
So.. Just on write, allow 200Mb then present tape mark, if you get to
220Mb present loss of vacuum tube pressure. On read, present loss of
vacuum tube pressure after EOF (that is, after both tape marks have
been read)
BTW Double tape marks are valid on VSE Idcams backup/restore tapes.
How does the software detect EOT in this case?
Mark
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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John Summerfield
2003-02-21 01:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Tatum
Mark,
So long as anyone wanting to avail themselves of the scheme you propose
is willing to live with the admittedly ad hoc nature of the convention,
fine. But there is still the problem of some poor misguided soul that thinks
that a software simulation of some piece of hardware can ever be completely
accurate - hopefully they are few and understanding.
As far as the double tape marks problem under VSE, I suggest you look at
what Sam Golob has done for the problem engendered under the various flavors
of OS (as opposed to DOS varieties) when one somehow tries to unload a PDS
with "empty" members - one winds up with two file marks in a row with data
past them. He has apparently solved the problem.
I think on SL tapes there is no problem because the labels do not appear.
Presumably, an IEBCOPY restore knows what it's doing and so that works too, but
I've not tried.

I have, however, run off end of tape (using excp).
Post by Ronald Tatum
As far as how software under VSE goes, could someone explain to me *why*
either or both "normal" tapes and POWER tapes apparently have a leading tape
mark on them, but standard labeled tapes under OS have a volume label
followed by a tape mark, possibly followed by data set header labels/user
labels followed by the actual data set on the tape, followed by a tape
mark,... , and conventionally end all data on the tape with a double EOF
mark?
A leading TM on NL tapes shouldn't be a problem. On SL tapes, it would be
serious;-)
--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition.

==============================
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be right!




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Andy Kane
2003-02-21 08:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Summerfield
Mark,
(BIG snip)
Post by John Summerfield
A leading TM on NL tapes shouldn't be a problem. On SL tapes, it would be
serious;-)
Not at all - just use LABEL=(n,LTM) in the JCL instead of (n,SL)
IBM wasn't THAT dumb ;)

Shalom from Tel Aviv. Andy.



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John Summerfield
2003-02-21 18:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Kane
Post by John Summerfield
Mark,
(BIG snip)
Post by John Summerfield
A leading TM on NL tapes shouldn't be a problem. On SL tapes, it
would be
Post by John Summerfield
serious;-)
Not at all - just use LABEL=(n,LTM) in the JCL instead of (n,SL)
IBM wasn't THAT dumb ;)
I remember that now;-) Never needed it though.
--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition.

==============================
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mvandere
2003-02-21 02:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Tatum
For that matter, why didn't they make the hardware return "EOT
reflective marker encountered" on both reads and writes? Were their margins
so tight when they first built tape drives the way they aparently continue
to do that the additional circuitry would have broken IBM's
bank? [8-))]
If we remember that the EOT marker is 'advisory' and the software
doing the writes is then supposed to finish the volume in whatever
way it sees fit, one can argue that an EOT on read has almost no
meaning. Correction, it really has no meaning EOT is where the data
ends, not where the marker is.

Then again, anyone who's old enough to have done a FSF on an empty
tape may have coined the phrase 'On a clear tape you can FSF,1
forever'. (and, if you did it on a 2400, during batch, the boss would
probably come in and rip your head off)

Mark


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John Summerfield
2003-02-20 23:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Tatum
Post by Ronald Tatum
how *should* one simulate operations
on a "virtual" tape on a "virtual" machine simulating the real
thing? I
Post by Ronald Tatum
really don't have any suggestions - all the schemes I thnk of I can
immediately object to; I guess I had bad early life training ;-).
Virtual tape drives have been around a while now. They usually allow
200Meg on a 3480, but since they compress the stuffing out of the
data you sometimes get 1.5Gig on a tape, i.e. there's no way you
could ever put the data on one real 3480.
So.. Just on write, allow 200Mb then present tape mark, if you get to
220Mb present loss of vacuum tube pressure. On read, present loss of
vacuum tube pressure after EOF (that is, after both tape marks have
been read)
Real tape drives don't attach any significance to consecutive tape marks.

Also, loss of vacuum tube pressure does not sound right to me.
Post by Ronald Tatum
BTW Double tape marks are valid on VSE Idcams backup/restore tapes.
How does the software detect EOT in this case?
The tape drive signals tape mark by presenting Unit Exception in the sense data.
--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition.

==============================
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John Summerfield
2003-02-20 23:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ronald Tatum
Now, here's the logical conundrum I have when I think about simulated
tape I/O: The 3420 (and its predecessors, don't know about successors) only
returned "EOT reflective marker encountered last operation" status on a
"write-type" operation - never on a "read-type" operation. Thus, the program
writing data to a tape was supposed to recognize that hardware condition and
immediately write two end-of-file marks on the tape and do whatever was
supposed to be done about an end-of-physical-reel condition for its
purposes. Any program that read tapes was supposed to recognize that two
EOFs in a row *usually* signified end-of-data on the tape reel. The hardware
wouldn't "tell" the reading program that it was about to get into real
physical trouble. If the *writing* program didn't follow that convention, of
course, bad things happened - the tape was ripped off the supply reel and
operators got mad, etc., etc. So, since there is no symmetry between
reading and writing on a tape, and in any case the hardware never knew nor
cared how much data was on a tape (or could be), just that someone tried to
write beyond the EOT reflective marker, how *should* one simulate operations
on a "virtual" tape on a "virtual" machine simulating the real thing? I
really don't have any suggestions - all the schemes I thnk of I can
immediately object to; I guess I had bad early life training ;-).
I can't vouch for the EOT being ignored on read (but it was certainly possible
to wind the tape off the wrong end).

On OS, the processing you says "should be done by the program" is in fact done
by the access method software. When it recognises the EOT marker, it invokes EOV
processing (SVC X'37', who could forget the x37 abends?).

There should be enough space after the EOT marker to write tape labels and two
tape marks.

While there are (slightly) different EOF and EOV labels, what happens at EOV
depends on the JCL. OS would request another scratch (output) subject to any
limit specified in JCL, or the next input.


In the case that Hercules is writing to real tapes, it should emulate (as far as
possible) real mainframe tape behaviour, but I see no need to be concerned with
the capacity of any theoretical 2400 foot tape.

For TDF-style tape, I think we need a new format. The current style is
equivalent to mounting a tape without a WER. The new format should allow users
to specify the presumed tape capacity after which Hercules would
a) Pretend to find an EOT
b) Pretend the tape came off the spool.

Presumably any program that cannot handle that would have equivalent problems on
real hardware;-).

I don't think we need to allow for IRGs, but others may disagree. Perhaps all we
need is for the new-style TDF to begin
@TDF <capacity>

where the capacity is either a number of feet to which some calculation is
applied, or a number of megabytes.

This second TDF format would need to be written to by Hercules, and may need
state information to allow it to track rewinds and other tape operations.
--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition.

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Juan Clemente Eraña
2003-02-21 23:28:26 UTC
Permalink
I propose to follow the device management convention descripted in
Functional Characteristics Manuals and let the Operating System deal
with EOT problem after receiving a proper signal.

So, we would need to 'force' the EOT when there is no more space (we
could is this way emulate tapes with diskettes and ZIP disks) or when
the 2 GB limit is reached (or some bytes before 2GB).

I founded an old characteristics manual at
http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/370/GA33-1510-0_370-115_FC_Mar73.pdf

Pages 126-134 describes the 3410 Magnetic Tape Unit Channel Commands,
status and sense information. At each command description there is
a "what to do" when the EOT marker is reached while executing the
command.
For example - WRITE Command: "... if the operation runs into the end-
of-tape area, channel end, device end, and unit exception (bit 39 in
the CSW are set and the TAPE INDICATE light is turned on at the tape
unit. ..." so Hercules should present a sense byte 4 bit 2 (End of
Tape) turned on to the any SENSE request "... The end of tape bit is
set when tape is located at or beyond the EOT marker. This bit
is turned off only when the tape is moved backward past the
reflective marker if the end of tape situation occurs during a write,
write tape mark, or erase gap operation, unit exception is set in the
CSW ..."

Regards
Juan
Post by Marian Gasparovic
These are opinions how to make multivolume tape
support to Hercules. Which is correct ? Is there
anybody capable to implement it ? I have time, but no
knowledge :(((
Marian
Post by laddiehanus
A check would need to be added in tapedev.c to issue
a unit exception
after a number of bytes have been written (200Mb for
3480, havent used
a 3420 in years so I dont remember what the size
was). Then processing
to present LEOT and PEOT would be needed also. Until
then you would
have to code your application to do eov processing
after your tape
size is written.
----------------------------------------------
Post by laddiehanus
I think multivolume tape support should be added to
tapedev.c
I suppose Hercules should return a sense information
indicating the
end-of-reel condition, for example
SENSE BYTE 4
bit0 . ALU HDWR ERROR
bit1 . REJ TAPE UNIT
bit2 x TAPE INDICATE <===
bit3 . WRITE TRGGR VRC
bit4 . MICROPGM DET ERROR
bit5 . LWR ERROR
bit6 . TAPE UNIT CHK
bit7 . RES RPQ
In a a no-more-space-in-tape condition Hercules
should return
the Tape indicate sense info instead of Equipement
Check, so the
Operating System can ask for the next tape.
Instead of a 2 GB disk file I used a 720K 3.5
diskette as a tape, I
think that it's a similar condition (no more space).
When the diskette became full I received an
DMKTAP503I TAPE 480 EQUIP CK CMD= 01
SNS=
1040002900C003000000000000800100010000FFFF000000
CSW= 00F0A5D8 0E000000 USERID= MAINT
HHCPN098I Device 0480 initialized
HC209I Error writing data block at offset 000B232C
in file
A:/tap1.aws: No spac
HHCCP048I 0480:CCW=01E57953 20800325=>02C3D4E2
4002E3E7 E3400002
E4404000 .CMS .
HHCCP075I 0480:Stat=0E00 Count=0000
HHCCP076I 0480:Sense=10400029 00C00300 00000000
00800100 010000FF
FF000000
HHCCP077I 0480:Sense=EQC ITF
Regards
Juan
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Sorry, I mean multivolume tape dataset of course.
Marian
Post by Marian Gasparovic
I know it is Friday, but is there anybody who
can
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
tell
if I can create multivolume dataset under
Hercules ?
Post by Marian Gasparovic
Post by Marian Gasparovic
And how ?
thank you
Marian
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