Discussion:
Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
(too old to reply)
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-01 16:12:01 UTC
Permalink
I posed this question last May but didn't get a response.


Can someone tell me the current status of Hercules 3.12 development?


The Hercules-390.eu page cites "2015" as the planned delivery for 3.12. Since 3.11 was released Sept. 15 2014 it is coming up on a year since the last release. That's starting to look like a long time. Is everything alright with the development efforts? Are the developers running into difficulties?


Specific information that would be helpful:


1. Is a release of 3.12 realistically expected in 2015? If so, is there any likely time frame that could be assigned to this? (By month, by quarter, etc.)


2. The page http://www.hercules-390.eu/hercnew.html http://www.hercules-390.eu/hercnew.html cites two planned features: Enhanced DAT and PFPO Facility. Are these features going to appear in Hercules before the end of 2015?


3. Are there any other changes or enhancements for 3.12 being worked on that would likely appear in Hercules before the end of 2015?


Any information in these areas would be appreciated.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-01 18:00:51 UTC
Permalink
From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 01 August 2015 17:12
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hercules-390] Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status

I posed this question last May but didn't get a response.

Possibly because no one has any idea of the status.

Can someone tell me the current status of Hercules 3.12 development?

The best guess is to look at the various GITHUB repositories, and perhaps ask on there
.

The Hercules-390.eu page cites "2015" as the planned delivery for 3.12. Since 3.11 was released Sept. 15 2014 it is coming up on a year since the last release. That's starting to look like a long time. Is everything alright with the development efforts? Are the developers running into difficulties?

Not sure how many active developers there are, but the Hercules-390.eu page is Roger Bowlers. He generally takes tested fixes from the other repositories and adds to his and produces a releases. Last Time I asked he said he was waiting to see what happened with the latest updates for the new (Z13 perhaps) hardware.

Specific information that would be helpful:

It’s a volunteer project most folks have real jobs.

1. Is a release of 3.12 realistically expected in 2015? If so, is there any likely time frame that could be assigned to this? (By month, by quarter, etc.)

I don’t think you can realistically expect anything in any timeframe.

2. The page http://www.hercules-390.eu/hercnew.html cites two planned features: Enhanced DAT and PFPO Facility. Are these features going to appear in Hercules before the end of 2015?

Look in the repository’s on GitHub,

https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk

https://github.com/hercules-390/hyperion

but I can’t see any Z13 code.

3. Are there any other changes or enhancements for 3.12 being worked on that would likely appear in Hercules before the end of 2015?

I don’t believe there is any plan, or any

Any information in these areas would be appreciated.

Information is in short supply, but perhaps because everyone is totally fed up with everyone else, and have found other things to do.

Dave Wade

G4UGM
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-01 21:27:04 UTC
Permalink
I don't really get involved with GitHub and wouldn't know what to look for even if I went there.


I am concerned about that last statement that everyone is fed up with everyone else.


Is the Hercules project in jeopardy? Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-01 21:40:22 UTC
Permalink
On GitHub you can look at the dates and times of commits and who made them and then judge for yourself


.. on the other hand in many ways Hercules is complete and stable.



Dave



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 01 August 2015 22:27
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status








I don't really get involved with GitHub and wouldn't know what to look for even if I went there.



I am concerned about that last statement that everyone is fed up with everyone else.



Is the Hercules project in jeopardy? Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.

Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.

My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.

Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.

Harold Grovesteen
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 17:33:52 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 02 August 2015 17:49
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are enough
who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as things
stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new developers
emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are willing to put aside
the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some coordination
could be achieved between the two repositories. The "camps" are roughly
affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger needs more people to
work the release side. This would involve at least one person who is willing
to work with and be acceptable to facilitate such communication. Right now
no public communication occurs and there seems to be little evidence of
private communication either.
I built the MSI files for Roger last time round...
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Vince Coen vbcoen@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Having now retired work wise for 3 years (68) I can help with the
building of system as have a laptop running MS VS C in X64 mode as well
as a Linux desktop (Mageia v4 X64) if it helps.

Was a Programmer, Analyst, Tester, Test Manager as well as a DP / IT
Manager and Director in my working past that goes back to 1961 if it
helps :)

I do not have current experience of:Mainframe assembly or for that
matter IBM system programming (was in Cobol dev.), or current detailed
working exp. of C programming although can understand (generally)
existing code at least on Linux.

If I can help let me know

Currently running Turnkey 4 Upd 7 under Linux also have 3.11 installed.

Vince
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 02 August 2015 17:49
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
[hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are enough
who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things
stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new developers
emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are willing to
put aside
the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination
could be achieved between the two repositories. The "camps" are roughly
affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger needs more people to
work the release side. This would involve at least one person who is
willing
to work with and be acceptable to facilitate such communication.
Right now
no public communication occurs and there seems to be little evidence of
private communication either.
I built the MSI files for Roger last time round...
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
Truda gert_caers@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 17:55:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Harold,

In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself.
I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject
necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a
real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this because
this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid hercules
supporter (but not developer).

My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project &
programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a
developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional
jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have
"discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors 3.07,
3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.

To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not "communicating".
To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of them still provide
great functionality. This is rather rare in the software world that when
branches split they all stay on a high level. This means that the
developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.

However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after some
time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the
complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by
that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS that
can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such a
scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development the
enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will be
hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS and
finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).

If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation
(pls correct me if I am wrong):

- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own
(apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested party
in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the MVS
functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into
patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it is
not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is
kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that
it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul
seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and
sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or does
not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great developer and
has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload on his own and
is putting people off by his chaotic style of communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable
but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).

I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the
prerequisites to have some success and the way to go is as follows:

1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and
the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work
in the background. You are the perfect candidate.

2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a
path to take. Here are some example ideas.

1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal
to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of
branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project
Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound
too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall
webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a mini
working mvs distri. This is important because new developers might tend
to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not
necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and evaluate
if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations is about
17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.

Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed
forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be for
you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and present a
working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I think
hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every chance even
the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it might be too late
given the accelerating rate of development and mainframe evolution.

Some more futuristic options for usability might include:
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main
OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run
os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31

and so on.

I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 17:59:35 UTC
Permalink
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose “management” 


From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 02 August 2015 18:56
To: Harold grovesteen <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status





Hi Harold,

In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself. I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this because this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid hercules supporter (but not developer).

My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project & programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have "discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors 3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.

To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not "communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the software world that when branches split they all stay on a high level. This means that the developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.

However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will be hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS and finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).

If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation (pls correct me if I am wrong):

- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own (apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).

I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the prerequisites to have some success and the way to go is as follows:

1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work in the background. You are the perfect candidate.

2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a path to take. Here are some example ideas.

1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers might tend to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations is about 17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.

Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and mainframe evolution.

Some more futuristic options for usability might include:
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31

and so on.

I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.

Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.

My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.

Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.

Harold Grovesteen
Truda gert_caers@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose
“management” 

*Sent:* 02 August 2015 18:56
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Hi Harold,
In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself.
I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject
necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a
real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this
because this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid
hercules supporter (but not developer).
My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project &
programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a
developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional
jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have
"discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors
3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.
To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not
"communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of
them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the
software world that when branches split they all stay on a high level.
This means that the developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.
However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after
some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the
complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by
that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS
that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such
a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development
the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will
be hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS
and finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).
If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation
- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own
(apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested
party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the
MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into
patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it
is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is
kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that
it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul
seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and
sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or
does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great
developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload
on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of
communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable
but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).
I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the
1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and
the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work
in the background. You are the perfect candidate.
2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a
path to take. Here are some example ideas.
1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal
to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of
branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project
Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound
too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall
webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a
mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers
might tend to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not
necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and
evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations
is about 17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.
Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed
forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be
for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and
present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I
think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every
chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it
might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and
mainframe evolution.
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31
and so on.
I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.
Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could
derail the
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
Yes i know I am not imposing anything I am inquiring.
Truda gert_caers@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose
“management” 

*Sent:* 02 August 2015 18:56
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Hi Harold,
In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself.
I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject
necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a
real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this
because this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid
hercules supporter (but not developer).
My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project &
programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a
developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional
jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have
"discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors
3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.
To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not
"communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of
them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the
software world that when branches split they all stay on a high level.
This means that the developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.
However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after
some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the
complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by
that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS
that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such
a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development
the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will
be hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS
and finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).
If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation
- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own
(apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested
party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the
MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into
patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it
is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is
kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that
it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul
seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and
sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or
does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great
developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload
on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of
communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable
but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).
I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the
1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and
the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work
in the background. You are the perfect candidate.
2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a
path to take. Here are some example ideas.
1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal
to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of
branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project
Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound
too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall
webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a
mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers
might tend to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not
necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and
evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations
is about 17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.
Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed
forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be
for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and
present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I
think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every
chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it
might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and
mainframe evolution.
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31
and so on.
I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.
Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could
derail the
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
what would be the right term?
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-03 19:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Truda ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose “management” 

what would be the right term?
Some combination of Coordination and Encouragement. All while
carefully avoiding telling people what to do or when to do it.
Something that gives people hope that their contributions will be used
and included.

This is probably pretty hard to deal with when you come from a
traditional development management perspective, where you have actions
you can take when someone is late with their deliverable, or decides
to do something a different way from what was discussed, or just fails
to respond to mail for a month, etc. etc. In this world you can only
pursuade, and you can't even do that too hard or you'll be treated
like a salesman, and we all know how that goes over with developers...

BTW, I think your summary was pretty good, and also that no one should
take offence over anything you said.

Tony H.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-04 14:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Truda ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose “management” 

what would be the right term?
Some combination of Coordination and Encouragement. All while
carefully avoiding telling people what to do or when to do it.
Something that gives people hope that their contributions will be used
and included.
Your last point, Tony, about contributions is pretty important.

<snip>
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Tony H.
The Hercules community at large needs to understand the project has
ceased development. Activating past developers and bringing new ones on
board is necessary. I don't know how to change where we are at. But
doing nothing is not the answer.

All of those who are actively developing and clearly not just for
Hercules itself but in related areas need to come together and figure
out a way forward. The life of the project is dependent upon that
somehow happening.

If you have skills in C development and have some understanding of the
mainframe, you are particularly needed. Those of you out there who use
Hercules with Linux guests in particular have a strong reason to keep
Hercules moving forward.

Harold Grovesteen
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-05 19:57:31 UTC
Permalink
I am not as close to Hercules as I once was, but I have always admired what it has accomplished. I was concerned that something like this might have been going on.


I can only speculate as to all the reasons why this has happened, but I suspect that if those persons who have withdrawn from development were to come back, they would need a good reason to do so.


Perhaps what is required is less a matter of technology and expertise than it is a human factor. It seem that people's feeling or pride have been hurt, in ways that I don't know about or understand.


I believe it's important for everyone to appreciate that Hercules is a good thing, something bigger and better than any one individual. We can't write good software when we are angry, discouraged or disappointed. Software is as much a matter of the human heart as it is one of bits and bytes.


A large part of that which gives us meaning in life is what we accomplish with it. Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an accomplishment with a future and not just a past, each person must come to terms with that, and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the Hercules project is more important than any one person. To be able to do that - to come to terms with what is more important - there may be a need for some individuals to apologize and others to forgive. I am not speaking with regard to any particular individual persons, but in general, anyone holding grudges or hard feelings needs to forgive and let this go. That would go a long way to mending the hurt feelings and put people back on track again.


It also seems, in my humble opinion, that having multiple development tracks is not in Hercules' best interests. It harms the unity of the project and the players that are a part of it. Somehow, everyone needs to be on the same page. If we are going to be all together on this, we need to actually be together.


In addition, if some individuals have specific grievances about the project as a whole or about some individuals, they should state their issues, in a straight-forward way that sticks to the facts and avoids angry or emotional outbursts. It would be a way for everyone to "put their cards on the table", to resolve these matters once and for all, and to then make a fresh start with these issues finally put to rest.


Well, that's my two cents. Hope it's of some help.
Amrith amrith_100_k@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:07:19 UTC
Permalink
Your post was directed to the list brother, think that was not what you intended to do. Happy firefighting.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From:"Truda ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Date:Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:34 PM
Subject:Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status

 

On 08/02/2015 07:59 PM, 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390] wrote:

 

I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose “management” 


 

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 02 August 2015 18:56
To: Harold grovesteen <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status

 




Hi Harold,

In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself. I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this because this is a  layman's outside view if you will from an avid hercules supporter (but not developer).

My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project & programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have "discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors 3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.

To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not "communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the software world that when branches split they all stay on a high level. This means that the developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.

However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will be hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS and finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).

If I  am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation (pls correct me if I am wrong):

- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own (apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).

I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the prerequisites to have some success and the way to go is as follows:

1) there is a need for a Project Assurance  who knows the history and the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work in the background. You are the perfect candidate.

2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a path to take. Here are some example ideas.

    1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
    2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
    3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers might tend to come from the linux side.
    4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
    5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations is about 17xx pages)
    6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
    7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.

Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed forum for discussing future developments)  but a good start might be for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and mainframe evolution.

Some more futuristic options for usability might include:
    1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main OS's...
    2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run os's
    3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31

and so on.

I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Gert Caers




On 08/02/2015 06:49 PM, Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390] wrote:

 
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.

Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.

My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.

Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.

Harold Grovesteen
   



what would be the right term?
Truda gert_caers@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amrith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Your post was directed to the list brother, think that was not what
you intended to do. Happy firefighting.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Date*:Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:34 PM
*Subject*:Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose
“management” 

*Sent:* 02 August 2015 18:56
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Hi Harold,
In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself.
I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject
necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are
a real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this
because this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid
hercules supporter (but not developer).
My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project &
programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a
developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional
jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have
"discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors
3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.
To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not
"communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most
of them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the
software world that when branches split they all stay on a high
level. This means that the developers here are of a quite
extraordinary level.
However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after
some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between
the complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean
by that is that there are little to no real world applications for
MVS that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In
such a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of
development the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that
new blood will be hard to find because the younger generation has no
passion for MVS and finds no real life application for MVS (or
related os's).
If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following
- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own
(apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested
party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for
the MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts
into patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules
4.0 it is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is
kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense
that it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended)
Paul seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and
sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or
does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great
developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload
on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of
communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable
but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).
I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the
1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and
the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can
work in the background. You are the perfect candidate.
2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish
a path to take. Here are some example ideas.
1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a
proposal to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing
of branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project
Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to
sound too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall
webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a
mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers
might tend to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not
necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and
evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations
is about 17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS
guys.
Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed
forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be
for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and
present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I
think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every
chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it
might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and
mainframe evolution.
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the
main OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM
run os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31
and so on.
I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.
Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could
derail the
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.
Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.
My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.
Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.
Harold Grovesteen
what would be the right term?
That's allright. you can't hide stupidity on the internet for long anyway.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-02 18:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Nope was intended for the list


From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 02 August 2015 19:07
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status






Your post was directed to the list brother, think that was not what you intended to do. Happy firefighting.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android <https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
_____


From:"Truda ***@yahoo.com <mailto:***@yahoo.com> [hercules-390]" <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> >
Date:Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:34 PM
Subject:Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status

On 08/02/2015 07:59 PM, 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com <javascript:return> [hercules-390] wrote:

I would say half the problems are because someone tried to impose “management” 


From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <javascript:return> [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <javascript:return> ]
Sent: 02 August 2015 18:56
To: Harold grovesteen <javascript:return> <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status




Hi Harold,

In response to your answer below please allow me to introduce myself. I'm sorry to intrude your private mail off -list but the subject necessitates some privacy. My mail is rather long but I know you are a real supporter of hercules so please take your time to read this because this is a layman's outside view if you will from an avid hercules supporter (but not developer).

My name is Gert Caers and in professional life I am a project & programme manager for a bank in Belgium. Unfortunately I am not a developer myself but I've led many developer teams in my professional jobs both as a line manager and as a project manager. I have "discovered" Hercules about a year ago and have tried the flavors 3.07, 3.11 , 4.00 and also tk4- from JÃŒrgen Winkelmann.

To my surprise I discovered that these branches are not "communicating". To my even greater surprise I discovered that most of them still provide great functionality. This is rather rare in the software world that when branches split they all stay on a high level. This means that the developers here are of a quite extraordinary level.

However in such a project it is inevitable that it will stall after some time. One of the reasons is that there is a big "gap" between the complexity (high) and the real world usability (low). What I mean by that is that there are little to no real world applications for MVS that can be used even for example for non-profit organization. In such a scenario it is inevitable that after such a long time of development the enthusiasts are getting older (no offense) and that new blood will be hard to find because the younger generation has no passion for MVS and finds no real life application for MVS (or related os's).

If I am judging it correctly we are now stuck the following situation (pls correct me if I am wrong):

- 4.0 is in jeopardy because Fish is in financial trouble at home,
- 3.x is managed by roger bowler but he is on an island of his own (apparently after the disputes in the past of which i have no knowledge),
- tk4- is managed by JÃŒrgen Winkelmann and he is not an interested party in further development simply because he doesn't need it for the MVS functionality that he is offering. Whatever he needs he puts into patches and even though his emulator is stating it is hercules 4.0 it is not a 4.0.
- the 380 branch is managed by Paul Edwards (I presume he is kerravon86). This is the most forward looking branch in the sense that it tries to offer 31 bit and gcc. However (no offense intended) Paul seems to be the "ptf-developer type": He is developing adhoc and sometimes maybe doesn't make the best decisions in the long run or does not care too much about documentation. Still he is a great developer and has quite a nice product but cannot handle the workload on his own and is putting people off by his chaotic style of communication.
- Then there is Gerhard P and yourself who are extremely knowledgable but do not develop actively yourselves (or very little).

I would like to offer my help in managing the project. My view on the prerequisites to have some success and the way to go is as follows:

1) there is a need for a Project Assurance who knows the history and the product and who can offer advice if required. This person can work in the background. You are the perfect candidate.

2) after discussing with the PA (Project Assurance) we can establish a path to take. Here are some example ideas.

1) contact the different maintainers of the branch with a proposal to integrate (only a little bit) some workload (eg testing of branch-overall patches) and explaining the goal of the "Project Management". We would need to find a better term in order not to sound too hierarchical and more "fun-development style".
2) unified communications to the outside world: ie 1 overall webpage that everyones recognizes as the home of hercules
3) Present one clear version per linux distribution. include a mini working mvs distri. This is important because new developers might tend to come from the linux side.
4) evaluate if a 31 bit has a future as main branch (not necessarily Paul's version). This is important for usability
5) determine what workload is required for the new z13 and evaluate if this is realistic (I saw that the principle of operations is about 17xx pages)
6) find some support from gcc developer guys.
7) more integrated approach between hercules development and MVS guys.

Of course there is much more to evaluate and to do ( e.g. a managed forum for discussing future developments) but a good start might be for you to tell me if contacting the main players individually and present a working cooperation model has a chance of small success. I think hercules is a fabulous product and needs to be given every chance even the smallest one. If we don't do anything now then it might be too late given the accelerating rate of development and mainframe evolution.

Some more futuristic options for usability might include:
1) evaluate if we need to go for tcp/ip connectedness for the main OS's...
2) evaluate if a free web server can run on mvs 31 or some Z/VM run os's
3) evaluate if a free DB server can run on mvs 31

and so on.

I appreciate your time and would be happy to get your thoughts on this.

Regards,
Gert Caers
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Is the Hercules project in jeopardy?
Yes.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are there personality issues, or technical ones, that could derail the
future of Hercules? It would be a shame if that were the case.
While some technical challenges exist, it is really personality.
Everyone is not, though, fed up with everyone else. But there are
enough who are to have killed the forward momentum of the project.

Yes, from some perspectives, Hercules is a mature product. But, as
things stand it will become a smaller and smaller player unless new
developers emerge or enough of the ones with a project history are
willing to put aside the past and move forward together.

My personal view is the project's future would improve if some
coordination could be achieved between the two repositories. The
"camps" are roughly affiliated with the two repos. I also believe Roger
needs more people to work the release side. This would involve at least
one person who is willing to work with and be acceptable to facilitate
such communication. Right now no public communication occurs and there
seems to be little evidence of private communication either.

Dave is right. Many have found other things to do. How permanent that
state might be, I do not know.

Harold Grovesteen
what would be the right term?
' Richard Pinion' rpinion@netscape.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-05 20:08:07 UTC
Permalink
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2">Boy can I attest to that analysis! &nbsp;I'm in such a situation right now ,</FONT><FONT size="2">&nbsp;saying&nbsp;</FONT><DIV><FONT size="2">things that can get you in trouble.&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN style="font-size: small;">For all I know, I may be&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN style="font-size: small;">unemployed by</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-size: small;">this afternoon!</SPAN><DIV><DIV><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px;">Of course nobody can really get fired from Hercules development, but</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px;">you can quit.</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">--- hercules-***@yahoogroups.com wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">From: "***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]" &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">To: &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: 05 Aug 2015 12:57:31 -0700</SPAN><BR><BR>









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<P></P><P>I am not as close to Hercules as I once was, but I have always admired what it has accomplished.&nbsp; I was concerned that something like this might have been going on.</P><P><BR></P><P>I can only speculate as to all the reasons why this has happened, but I suspect that if those persons who have withdrawn from development were to come back, they would need a good reason to do so.</P><P><BR></P><P>Perhaps what is required is less a matter of technology and expertise than it is a human factor.&nbsp; It seem that people's feeling or pride have been hurt, in ways that I don't know about or understand.</P><P><BR></P><P>I believe it's important for everyone to appreciate that Hercules is a good thing, something bigger and better than any one individual.&nbsp; We can't write good software when we are angry, discouraged or disappointed.&nbsp; Software is as much a matter of the human heart as it is one of bits and bytes.</P><P><BR></P><P>A large part of that which gives us meaning in life is what we accomplish with it.&nbsp; Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an accomplishment with a future and not just a past, each person must come to terms with that, and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the Hercules project is more important than any one person.&nbsp; To be able to do that - to come to terms with what is more important - there may be a need for some individuals to apologize and others to forgive.&nbsp; I am not speaking with regard to any particular individual persons, but in general, anyone holding grudges or&nbsp;hard feelings needs to forgive and let this go.&nbsp; That would go a long way to mending the hurt feelings and put people back on track again.</P><P><BR></P><P>It also seems, in my humble opinion, that having multiple development tracks is not in Hercules' best interests.&nbsp; It harms the unity of the project and the players that are a part of it.&nbsp; Somehow, everyone needs to be on the same page.&nbsp; If we are going to be all together on this, we need to actually be together.</P><P><BR></P><P>In addition, if some individuals have specific grievances about the project as a whole or about some individuals, they should state their issues, in a straight-forward way that sticks to the facts and avoids angry or emotional outbursts.&nbsp; It would be a way for everyone to "put their cards on the table", to resolve these matters once and for all, and to then make a fresh start with these issues finally put to rest.</P><P><BR></P><P>Well, that's my two cents.&nbsp; Hope it's of some help.</P><P><BR></P><P><BR></P><P></P>

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René Ferland ferland.rene@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-05 22:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an accomplishment
with a future and not just a past, each person must come to terms with that,
and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the Hercules project is
more important than any one person. 
I respect your opinion quatras but I don't share it. I don't mind that Hercules may have only a past and no future. In my academic career so far, I have seen many research labs be vibrant of activity at some point and then essentially die off later when the people driving force behind them is no longer there, or when new people turn out to be interested by something else. At first I felt sad about this, but not anymore. Projects can't be separated from people, and people change, and time changes too. The computer scene today changes all the time and I don't see that Hercules will be an exception.

Besides when I look at Hercules now, I ask myself a question: what would be the goal of pursuing Hercules development at this point? I am not saying that it should not be done but, from what I understand:

1) Roger Bowler's commercial attempt with Hercules failed;
2) Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion are not needed to run the vintage systems (those "legally" available);
3) IBM made clear that running the ADCD systems on anything else but zPDT is strictly prohibited.

So what is left exactly for Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion?

Personally, I discovered Hercules 3.07 five years ago and I played with the vintage systems since then. But after five years, I explored almost everything I could with my (limited) knowledge of mainframes. Honestly, the peak of my fun is behing me. Sure I would love to continue having fun with DOS/VS, MVS3.8J of VM/370, but the Yahoo groups do not provide that much input for me now. Since I can't contribute myself, I can't be mad (or sad) at people not writing. Could it be that something like this is happening with Hercules?

Yours truly,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal
'Ron Hilton' ron.hilton@comcast.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-05 23:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Herculeans,



As one who put a number of years of my life into a similar project (PSI)
which IBM acquired and then largely shelved, I can relate to the
disappointment expressed below. But I have great memories of working with a
world-class team at PSI and building a great product which did see the light
of day, albeit only for a few years. I hope the Hercules team can feel the
same satisfaction with what they have achieved. I remember my first manager
at Amdahl in the early 80s telling our team that the state-of-the-art
computer we were busily engaged in designing would some day be on the rust
heap, and that we should not sacrifice ourselves and our personal lives for
it to the extent that we end up on that rust heap too. That's just the
nature of technology. Each project is a stepping stone to the next, even if
it is a failure (i.e. learning experience). But in the end, what matters
most are the human relationships in working together as a team, and even
more importantly your families who support and encourage you in what you are
doing and should be foremost in your life.



Ron Hilton



_____

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 4:06 PM
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an accomplishment
with a future and not just a past, each person must come to terms with that,
and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the Hercules project is
more important than any one person.
I respect your opinion quatras but I don't share it. I don't mind that
Hercules may have only a past and no future. In my academic career so far, I
have seen many research labs be vibrant of activity at some point and then
essentially die off later when the people driving force behind them is no
longer there, or when new people turn out to be interested by something
else. At first I felt sad about this, but not anymore. Projects can't be
separated from people, and people change, and time changes too. The computer
scene today changes all the time and I don't see that Hercules will be an
exception.

Besides when I look at Hercules now, I ask myself a question: what would be
the goal of pursuing Hercules development at this point? I am not saying
that it should not be done but, from what I understand:

1) Roger Bowler's commercial attempt with Hercules failed;
2) Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion are not needed to run the vintage systems
(those "legally" available);
3) IBM made clear that running the ADCD systems on anything else but zPDT is
strictly prohibited.

So what is left exactly for Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion?

Personally, I discovered Hercules 3.07 five years ago and I played with the
vintage systems since then. But after five years, I explored almost
everything I could with my (limited) knowledge of mainframes. Honestly, the
peak of my fun is behing me. Sure I would love to continue having fun with
DOS/VS, MVS3.8J of VM/370, but the Yahoo groups do not provide that much
input for me now. Since I can't contribute myself, I can't be mad (or sad)
at people not writing. Could it be that something like this is happening
with Hercules?

Yours truly,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal





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quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 00:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Of course, the world's worst-kept secret is that Hercules is frequently used to run other than "vintage" systems. We can surmise that many or most of the lead developers have been, or are, running non-vintage systems, but cannot say so directly for obvious reasons. If it were otherwise, they would (as you point out) have no reason to extend the Hercules implementation any further. Perhaps their own inability to access newer versions of non-vintage systems is reducing their incentive to enhance Hercules. That is only speculation on my part, but it seems reasonable to conclude.


In any event, it seems like more is going on than technical issues. I wish that the major players could come forward and tell everyone what is on their minds. Just let us know what your concerns are. How can we help make this right? If this is ever going to get resolved, people need to be open about their feelings and views on this.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 13:25:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
In any event, it seems like more is going on than technical issues.
Yes. Technical issues are not really a factor.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I wish that the major players could come forward and tell everyone
what is on their minds. Just let us know what your concerns are. How
can we help make this right?
Most participants here can not "make it right" because the issues exist
in the development realm, not here.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If this is ever going to get resolved, people need to be open about
their feelings and views on this.
There has been plenty of that, just not here. That is what helped get
us to where we are. I do agree that moving beyond the present situation
is needed. How to achieve that seems to be the prime question. I do
not have the answer.

Harold
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 14:41:22 UTC
Permalink
There has been plenty of that, just not here. That is what helped get
us to where we are. I do agree that moving beyond the present situation
is needed. How to achieve that seems to be the prime question. I do
not have the answer.
I've got great interpersonal skills if you
need me to mediate.

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 03:30:12 UTC
Permalink
I spent the entire night formulating a
punchline, and no-one gives me an
opening! :-(

So let me do it myself.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I've got great interpersonal skills if you
need me to mediate.
You have GOT to be kidding, right?
Not at all! Once I have access to the raw
data, it shouldn't take more than a few
minutes to isolate who the despicable
cretins are.

BFN. Paul.
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 16:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Of course, the world's worst-kept secret is that Hercules is frequently
used to run other than "vintage" systems. We can surmise that many or most
of the lead developers have been, or are, running non-vintage systems, but
cannot say so directly for obvious reasons. If it were otherwise, they
would (as you point out) have no reason to extend the Hercules
implementation any further. Perhaps their own inability to access newer
versions of non-vintage systems is reducing their incentive to enhance
Hercules. That is only speculation on my part, but it seems reasonable to
conclude.
I don't think it's entirely true that there's *no* incentive to implement
new features in Hercules in the absense of newer IBM operating systems
being available to hobbyists. First, there is zLinux, which is some ways is
ahead of z/OS in using (or at least shipping) certain architectural
features. Second, many people on the Hercules list, including developers,
do have access to IBM real iron, either at a day job or at some friendly
university or company. And finally there is the shear intellectual joy of
making something work, even knowing that its use may be limited. I'm sure
this overlaps the craftsman's sense of "doing it right" even if no one will
ever know the difference. The sort of thing that led me, in the late 1970s,
to correct the logoff message in Wylbur to show the proper elapsed time if
the user was logged on through midnight over new year's in the 1999/ 2000
boundary. There is a bunch of this in a couple of Neville Shute's novels,
notably On the Beach, and Trustee from the Toolroom.

Tony H.

Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 14:45:17 UTC
Permalink
z/Linux testing using z/13 instructions.
Post by René Ferland ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an accomplishment
with a future and not just a past, each person must come to terms with that,
and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the Hercules project is
more important than any one person.
I respect your opinion quatras but I don't share it. I don't mind that Hercules may have only a past and no future. In my academic career so far, I have seen many research labs be vibrant of activity at some point and then essentially die off later when the people driving force behind them is no longer there, or when new people turn out to be interested by something else. At first I felt sad about this, but not anymore. Projects can't be separated from people, and people change, and time changes too. The computer scene today changes all the time and I don't see that Hercules will be an exception.
1) Roger Bowler's commercial attempt with Hercules failed;
2) Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion are not needed to run the vintage systems (those "legally" available);
3) IBM made clear that running the ADCD systems on anything else but zPDT is strictly prohibited.
So what is left exactly for Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion?
Personally, I discovered Hercules 3.07 five years ago and I played with the vintage systems since then. But after five years, I explored almost everything I could with my (limited) knowledge of mainframes. Honestly, the peak of my fun is behing me. Sure I would love to continue having fun with DOS/VS, MVS3.8J of VM/370, but the Yahoo groups do not provide that much input for me now. Since I can't contribute myself, I can't be mad (or sad) at people not writing. Could it be that something like this is happening with Hercules?
Yours truly,
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Robert Duncan dosvsoperator@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 00:18:34 UTC
Permalink
To the Group, and to the Herculeans,

I am all for the progression of computer technology, but I am also in favor of preserving "the best of the past", to quote Security Primus Ivan Ulav in the pilot for an ill-fated television series "Genesis II".

Clearly, the IBM System/360 and the IBM System/370 hardware, systems and application software, documentation and knowledge base represent "the best of the past", and deserves to be preserved and persisted. For me, it just doesn't get old.

I urge the Herculeans to lay aside any weight which acts as a burden to Hercules progress and threatens the project's existence.

Currently, I still use Hercules 3.07. From what I can see, it is a very stable version, and runs faithfully day in and day out, year in and year out.

Yours truly,

Robert S. Duncan

Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/5/15, 'Ron Hilton' ***@comcast.net [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2015, 11:57 PM


 

















Herculeans,



 

As
one who put a number of years of my
life into a similar project (PSI) which IBM acquired and
then largely shelved,
I can relate to the disappointment expressed below. But I
have great memories
of working with a world-class team at PSI and building a
great product which did
see the light of day, albeit only for a few years. I hope
the Hercules team can
feel the same satisfaction with what they have achieved. I
remember my first
manager at Amdahl in the early 80s telling our team that the
state-of-the-art computer
we were busily engaged in designing would some day be on the
rust heap, and
that we should not sacrifice ourselves and our personal
lives for it to the
extent that we end up on that rust heap too. That’s just
the nature of
technology. Each project is a stepping stone to the next,
even if it is a
failure (i.e. learning experience). But in the end, what
matters most are the
human relationships in working together as a team, and even
more importantly
your families who support and encourage you in what you are
doing and should be
foremost in your life.


 

Ron
Hilton


 









From:
hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
hercules-***@yahoogroups.com ]

Sent:
Wednesday, August 05, 2015
4:06 PM

To:
hercules-***@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re:
[hercules-390] Re:
Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status




 

 










On Wed, 8/5/15,
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is a great accomplishment, but for it to be an
accomplishment
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
with a future and not just a past, each person must
come to terms with
that,
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
and appreciate that accomplishing new goals with the
Hercules project is
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
more important than any one person. 
I respect your opinion quatras but I don't share it. I
don't mind that Hercules
may have only a past and no future. In my academic career so
far, I have seen
many research labs be vibrant of activity at some point and
then essentially
die off later when the people driving force behind them is
no longer there, or
when new people turn out to be interested by something else.
At first I felt
sad about this, but not anymore. Projects can't be
separated from people, and
people change, and time changes too. The computer scene
today changes all the
time and I don't see that Hercules will be an
exception.



Besides when I look at Hercules now, I ask myself a
question: what would be the
goal of pursuing Hercules development at this point? I am
not saying that it
should not be done but, from what I understand:



1) Roger Bowler's commercial attempt with Hercules
failed;

2) Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion are not needed to run the
vintage systems (those
"legally" available);

3) IBM made clear that running the ADCD systems on anything
else but zPDT is
strictly prohibited.



So what is left exactly for Hercules 3.12 or Hyperion?



Personally, I discovered Hercules 3.07 five years ago and I
played with the
vintage systems since then. But after five years, I explored
almost everything
I could with my (limited) knowledge of mainframes. Honestly,
the peak of my fun
is behing me. Sure I would love to continue having fun with
DOS/VS, MVS3.8J of
VM/370, but the Yahoo groups do not provide that much input
for me now. Since I
can't contribute myself, I can't be mad (or sad) at
people not writing. Could
it be that something like this is happening with
Hercules?



Yours truly,



Rene FERLAND, Montreal











No virus found in this
message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2015.0.5941 / Virus Database: 4392/10377 - Release
Date: 08/05/15











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Robert Duncan dosvsoperator@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 00:29:07 UTC
Permalink
My hope is that new releases of Hercules continue to be developed that will run on the personal computer hardware and host operating systems of the future so we may at least continue to enjoy the vintage systems far into the future, regardless of whether or not IBM softens its tone regarding the newer systems software which has reached the end of its service life.

Yours truly,

Robert S. Duncan

Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/6/15, ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Asking again about Hercules 3.12 status
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 6, 2015, 12:08 AM


 









Of course, the world's worst-kept secret
is that Hercules is frequently used to run other than
"vintage" systems.  We can surmise that many or
most of the lead developers have been, or are, running
non-vintage systems, but cannot say so directly for obvious
reasons.  If it were otherwise, they would (as you point
out) have no reason to extend the Hercules implementation
any further.  Perhaps their own inability to access newer
versions of non-vintage systems is reducing their incentive
to enhance Hercules.  That is only speculation on my part,
but it seems reasonable to conclude.
In any event, it seems like more is
going on than technical issues.  I wish that the major
players could come forward and tell everyone what is on
their minds.  Just let us know what your concerns are. 
How can we help make this right?  If this is ever going to
get resolved, people need to be open about their feelings
and views on this.










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René Ferland ferland.rene@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-06 17:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
z/Linux testing using z/13 instructions.
Yes, you are right. I did not think about that one :-).

Thanks,

Rene FERLAND, Montreal
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