Discussion:
Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: Resurrecting Library Workspaces
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Juergen
2013-02-04 19:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

our APL\360 implementation is reaching a new level:

- Phil did a major effort to export all workspaces he could find in the APL\MTS libraries to a transliterated format. APL\MTS is very close to APL\360 and probably based on the source of the type III (-XM1) version of APL\360.

- I wrote a "translator" to transform the transliterated format into the encoding I'm using in the 1052-7 console emulation and an "ingestor" to create APL\360 statements usable to ingest the workspaces through HyperTerminal into APL\360.

We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360 User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't stand against it we're going to publish them soon.

There are minimal differences in the language definitions supported by APL\360 and APL\MTS. One of these differences is, that APL\MTS supports a (trivial) dyadic Alpha primitive (Shift A symbol on the keyboard) while this isn't available in APL\360. I'm wondering if someone is remembering this primitive and has some background information concerning it's history? This would help to decide if it should be added to APL\360 (in case it was a commonly used one) or simply replaced by standard APL\360 language in the APL\MTS functions containing it...

Cheers, Juergen
Tony Harminc
2013-02-04 19:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juergen
We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360 User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't stand against it we're going to publish them soon.
This is great progress!
Post by Juergen
There are minimal differences in the language definitions supported by APL\360 and APL\MTS. One of these differences is, that APL\MTS supports a (trivial) dyadic Alpha primitive (Shift A symbol on the keyboard) while this isn't available in APL\360. I'm wondering if someone is remembering this primitive and has some background information concerning it's history? This would help to decide if it should be added to APL\360 (in case it was a commonly used one) or simply replaced by standard APL\360 language in the APL\MTS functions containing it...
I have no recollection from the APL\360 and Sharp APL days of the
Alpha being used as a function/operator. What does it do on MTS?

Tony H.
Juergen
2013-02-04 20:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc
. . .
I have no recollection from the APL\360 and Sharp APL days of the
Alpha being used as a function/operator. What does it do on MTS?
Hi Tony,

have a look at

Loading Image...

It shows how that weird Alpha primitive is used. I've created a simple replacement in standard APL\360 language. The example shown is from workspace 1 TYPEDRILL where it is used to ensure that a user's text entry gets left justified no matter how much leading blanks were entered.

Similar uses are in about 80 statements in APL\MTS dated between 1968 and 1980, from a total of 10423 statements ingested. So it's probably not exactly a common primitive.

That whole thing is so trivial that it might even be a student's exercise in implementing an APL primitive that found its friends on APL\MTS over time.

Cheers, Juergen
Tony Harminc
2013-02-04 22:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juergen
Post by Tony Harminc
I have no recollection from the APL\360 and Sharp APL days of the
Alpha being used as a function/operator. What does it do on MTS?
Hi Tony,
have a look at
http://wotho.ethz.ch/alpha.png
It shows how that weird Alpha primitive is used. I've created a simple replacement in standard APL\360 language. The example shown is from workspace 1 TYPEDRILL where it is used to ensure that a user's text entry gets left justified no matter how much leading blanks were entered.
Similar uses are in about 80 statements in APL\MTS dated between 1968 and 1980, from a total of 10423 statements ingested. So it's probably not exactly a common primitive.
That whole thing is so trivial that it might even be a student's exercise in implementing an APL primitive that found its friends on APL\MTS over time.
Yeah - it seems quite a trivial thing to devote an entire and valuable
APL character to. I suppose it could have some more subtle use if it
supports items of higher rank, but I'm not at all sure what that would
be good for.

Tony H.
John P. Hartmann
2013-02-04 22:36:41 UTC
Permalink
As I recall, alpha was not used in IBM's APL. Given the amount of
overtyping going on otherwise, I always wondered how come it was left lone.

It seems to be a prefix length in Iverson's book.:

"Maximum prefix w <- alpha / u

Example
alpha/(1,1,0,1,0,1) = (1,1,0,0,0,0)
**
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dhdurgee
2013-02-05 18:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc
Post by Juergen
We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360 User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't stand against it we're going to publish them soon.
This is great progress!
Post by Juergen
There are minimal differences in the language definitions supported by APL\360 and APL\MTS. One of these differences is, that APL\MTS supports a (trivial) dyadic Alpha primitive (Shift A symbol on the keyboard) while this isn't available in APL\360. I'm wondering if someone is remembering this primitive and has some background information concerning it's history? This would help to decide if it should be added to APL\360 (in case it was a commonly used one) or simply replaced by standard APL\360 language in the APL\MTS functions containing it...
I have no recollection from the APL\360 and Sharp APL days of the
Alpha being used as a function/operator. What does it do on MTS?
Tony H.
I likewise have no recollection of Alpha in APL\360.
Post by Tony Harminc
This is the original I.P. Sharp APL/PC that was offered back in 1988
to P/C users, as an implementation of the mainframe APL that ran on
the big Amdahl V8. Sharp created their P/C port of APL by
developing an emulator for IBM 370 assembler, and offered their
full-featured APL as a shareware product as a free-to-copy product
to encourage APL education and adoption.
To me this appears to indicate that the mainframe sAPL should be available from this product as that version is being run on a 370 emulator. Given the shareware/free-to-copy status I would think that making the sAPL package available in Hercules would also be a great thing to have, in particular as this is a more advanced APL than the APL\360 package.

I would think that many of the issues involved in getting sAPL running on Hercules have already been addressed in getting APL\360 working. Sounds like an interesting follow-up project.

Dave
Tony Harminc
2013-02-05 19:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by dhdurgee
Post by Tony Harminc
This is the original I.P. Sharp APL/PC that was offered back in 1988
to P/C users, as an implementation of the mainframe APL that ran on
the big Amdahl V8. Sharp created their P/C port of APL by
developing an emulator for IBM 370 assembler, and offered their
full-featured APL as a shareware product as a free-to-copy product
to encourage APL education and adoption.
To me this appears to indicate that the mainframe sAPL should be available from this product as that version is being run on a 370 emulator. Given the shareware/free-to-copy status I would think that making the sAPL package available in Hercules would also be a great thing to have, in particular as this is a more advanced APL than the APL\360 package.
I would think that many of the issues involved in getting sAPL running on Hercules have already been addressed in getting APL\360 working. Sounds like an interesting follow-up project.
Good idea... As I suggested in a post on Jan 5,

"A related project would be to take the APL interpreter "BLOB" from the
free IPSA PC APL, and see if it will run under the APL\360 supervisor.
It probably provides a higher level of the APL language."

Tony H.
dhdurgee
2013-02-05 19:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc
Post by dhdurgee
Post by Tony Harminc
This is the original I.P. Sharp APL/PC that was offered back in 1988
to P/C users, as an implementation of the mainframe APL that ran on
the big Amdahl V8. Sharp created their P/C port of APL by
developing an emulator for IBM 370 assembler, and offered their
full-featured APL as a shareware product as a free-to-copy product
to encourage APL education and adoption.
To me this appears to indicate that the mainframe sAPL should be available from this product as that version is being run on a 370 emulator. Given the shareware/free-to-copy status I would think that making the sAPL package available in Hercules would also be a great thing to have, in particular as this is a more advanced APL than the APL\360 package.
I would think that many of the issues involved in getting sAPL running on Hercules have already been addressed in getting APL\360 working. Sounds like an interesting follow-up project.
Good idea... As I suggested in a post on Jan 5,
"A related project would be to take the APL interpreter "BLOB" from the
free IPSA PC APL, and see if it will run under the APL\360 supervisor.
It probably provides a higher level of the APL language."
Tony H.
Ahh! I missed the reference there. In fact, I wonder if Soliton might either support or lend a hand if asked. They might even have access to tapes or other archives of the original sAPL system that could be used more directly than the "BLOB" you referenced above,

Dave
Juergen
2013-02-07 10:43:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc
Post by Juergen
We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360
User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't
stand against it we're going to publish them soon.
This is great progress!
Post by Juergen
There are minimal differences in the language definitions
supported by APL\360 and APL\MTS. One of these differences
is, that APL\MTS supports a (trivial) dyadic Alpha primitive
(Shift A symbol on the keyboard) while this isn't available
in APL\360. I'm wondering if someone is remembering this
primitive and has some background information concerning
it's history? This would help to decide if it should be
added to APL\360 (in case it was a commonly used one) or
simply replaced by standard APL\360 language in the
APL\MTS functions containing it...
I have no recollection from the APL\360 and Sharp APL days of the
Alpha being used as a function/operator. . . .
Hi All,

as there don't seem to be any recollections I assume that alpha operator was really a local thing in APL\MTS only. So I decided to drop it and replaced it in the copied APL\MTS workspaces with the native ALPHA function shown in http://wotho.ethz.ch/alpha.png

I tested quite a bit on the copied workspaces and everything seems to work smoothly. Once we're decided on how to publish them (structure, copyrights to be observed, ...) I'll follow up with an APL\360 utility dump tape from which they can be loaded. For now only a teaser:

Loading Image...

Isn't that a treat?

Cheers, Juergen
Gerhard Postpischil
2013-02-07 14:45:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juergen
utility dump tape from which they can be loaded. For now only a
teaser: http://wotho.ethz.ch/plotformat.png
Isn't that a treat?
Yes, but I'm wondering why some curves appear to have two y points for
one x. Is that an option, or an unavoidable artifact of the algorithm?

It brings back memories - I started as a scientific programmer, and my
work in the sixties involved plotting (Stromberg-Carlson 4020, EAI 3500,
various models of Calcomp, and a printer preview option).

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, Vermont
Juergen
2013-02-07 20:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil
Post by Juergen
utility dump tape from which they can be loaded. For now only a
teaser: http://wotho.ethz.ch/plotformat.png
Isn't that a treat?
Yes, but I'm wondering why some curves appear to have two
y points for one x. Is that an option, or an unavoidable
artifact of the algorithm?
Well, it's not an option, it's a typical behavior of that type of algorithm when a stupid user doesn't reflect what he is asking for: The given diagram size can display an abscissa of 64 points while I flooded it with 201 points. Todays fancy algorithms would probably have guessed what I meant but this one simply doesn't: It uses the points it gets and fits them on the available ordinate range. If things are clear enough rounding yields identical ordinates for multiple abscissa values that got rounded to the same value, if not, multiple ordinate values can occur. So, no artifact... just silly me.

I've recreated the image with 64 abscissa values and of course got a clean result this time (press refresh on your browse when looking at it again, used the same name).
Post by Gerhard Postpischil
It brings back memories - I started as a scientific programmer,
and my work in the sixties involved plotting
(Stromberg-Carlson 4020, EAI 3500, various models of Calcomp,
and a printer preview option).
Plotting was always a "hobby" of mine... the first system I ran was a 4381 under VM/SP HPO with 16 graphics terminals (5088/5085/5081) for use with the then popular CAD software CADAM. At that times it wasn't at all obvious that plotting would work as users expected. And if it worked it was soooo slooowwww, especially if one used a pen plotter attached to an RS 232 port of a 5085. So, besides writing various paper usage optimization algorithms, I once set out to optimize the plotter attachment by writing a 5085 buffer program (in GAM macros) to keep the port busy at all times... guess what: It was a factor 3 faster than the one IBM provided at that time and kept the plotter drawing without any pauses. I sold this program quite a few times ;-)

Cheers, Juergen
Juergen
2013-02-26 21:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juergen
Post by Juergen
We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360
User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't
stand against it we're going to publish them soon.
I tested quite a bit on the copied workspaces and everything
seems to work smoothly. Once we're decided on how to publish
them (structure, copyrights to be observed, ...) I'll follow
up with an APL\360 utility dump tape from which they can be
http://wotho.ethz.ch/plotformat.png
Isn't that a treat?
Well, and now the real thing: I've created an APL\360 utility tape holding all workspaces currently available. It can be downloaded from

http://wotho.ethz.ch/APL_360_Workspace_Collection.zip

See README.txt for installation instructions (an operational APL\360 system is of course needed to install the tape). Once installed all information necessesary can be found in workspace 1 NEWS.

This is the first of three upcoming publications:

- Second will be an update of the mvt4apl "ready to install" system containing all the above workspaces and enhancements from feedback received on the 1.00 version.

- Third will be in cooperation with the Computer History Museum a "ready to use" system, where the APL licensed code will be hosted at the Museum's website.

Have fun!

Cheers, Juergen
William Gallant
2013-04-07 18:35:00 UTC
Permalink
Here is another famous workspace i remember from the past (1973 under APL\360).http://starmap.causeway.co.uk/docs/star.htm
I don't have APL\360 running under Hercules yet. I have not even sucessfully run OS/360-MVT or "any" Hercules OS yet. I am still a newbie. Just thought i'dmention the APL workspace i found.Maybe someone can copy/paste the code on the above webpage andcreate a workspace.

--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Juergen <winkelmann-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Juergen <winkelmann-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Running APL\360 on OS/360-MVT 21.8F: Resurrecting Library Workspaces
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2013, 4:32 PM
















 
Post by Juergen
Post by Juergen
We have _ALL_ LIB 1 workspaces mentioned in the APL\360
User's Manual and many more. Provided that copyrights don't
stand against it we're going to publish them soon.
I tested quite a bit on the copied workspaces and everything
seems to work smoothly. Once we're decided on how to publish
them (structure, copyrights to be observed, ...) I'll follow
up with an APL\360 utility dump tape from which they can be
http://wotho.ethz.ch/plotformat.png
Isn't that a treat?
Well, and now the real thing: I've created an APL\360 utility tape holding all workspaces currently available. It can be downloaded from



http://wotho.ethz.ch/APL_360_Workspace_Collection.zip



See README.txt for installation instructions (an operational APL\360 system is of course needed to install the tape). Once installed all information necessesary can be found in workspace 1 NEWS.



This is the first of three upcoming publications:



- Second will be an update of the mvt4apl "ready to install" system containing all the above workspaces and enhancements from feedback received on the 1.00 version.



- Third will be in cooperation with the Computer History Museum a "ready to use" system, where the APL licensed code will be hosted at the Museum's website.



Have fun!



Cheers, Juergen



























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mike Schwab
2013-04-07 21:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Gallant
Here is another famous workspace i remember from the past (1973 under APL\360).http://starmap.causeway.co.uk/docs/star.htm
I don't have APL\360 running under Hercules yet. I have not even sucessfully run OS/360-MVT or "any" Hercules OS yet. I am still a newbie. Just thought i'dmention the APL workspace i found.Maybe someone can copy/paste the code on the above webpage andcreate a workspace.
You can check the results against http://www.heavens-above.com/ or the
screensaver from Cern.

--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Mike Stramba
2013-04-08 19:31:26 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Tony Harminc
2013-04-08 20:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Stramba
In this version of TSO (what version is that exactly?),
The TSO that was a sysgen option on MVT 21.8, I assume.
Post by Mike Stramba
PROFILE PREFIX(prefix) is not recognized.
Yup - that came in MVS. (Or possibly in SVS; I never used that, so I
don't know.)
Post by Mike Stramba
Is there some substitute ?
Not really. The notion of prefix is dug in at various levels in
IKJPARS, DAIR, etc. You are pretty much stuck with using your userid
as the prefix if you want to be able to specify dataset names without
quotes. Best bet is just to use the quotes.
Post by Mike Stramba
I see that LISTCAT LEVEL(xxxx) works.
In MVT, commands like LISTCAT are not the IDCAMS ones that they are in
MVS. No VSAM; no VSAM catalogues. Think CVOLs and IEHPROGM.
Post by Mike Stramba
Is there a "bitsavers" TSO manual version ?
Sure - look in the /pdf/ibm/360/os/tso/ directory.

Tony H.
ScottC
2013-04-09 04:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc
Post by Mike Stramba
Is there a "bitsavers" TSO manual version ?
Sure - look in the /pdf/ibm/360/os/tso/ directory.
See also: www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/os/R21.7_Apr73/GC28-6763-3_TSO_Terminal_Users_Guide_Rel_21.7_Aug74.pdf

See also: http://tk3.limewebs.com/Vintage_Manuals.html for a complete list of clickable links. (Use <ctrl>f on most browsers to search for "tso", etc.)

ScottC

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