Discussion:
Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
(too old to reply)
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 07:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and operating system(s).

Ive looked at the various web pages that contain information about Hercules, and I have to admit that im slightly overwhelmed with the amount of information, and I have a hard time finding the best place to start. Can anyone recommend any web pages/papers/tutorials/etc that would be a good place to start learning about the IBM Mainframe and Hercules, from the ground up, for a completely new user ?

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,


Thanks,


- Maarten
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 08:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Hercules is basically a Hardware simulator so it needs software to make it run. It also does not emulate IBM terminals so you probably need an IBM3270 emulator to run. There are several available free for most platforms. X3270 is probably a good one to start with.

There are basically four Operating Systems that can be loaded onto a Mainframe and IBM have decided that for the three to which they own the legal rights, zOS, zVM and zVSE you are not allowed to download and run them on Hercules, even in order to teach yourself about current mainframes.

The fourth operating system commonly used is Linux, of course there is a zLinux flavour. Ignoring zLinux the only IBM Operating systems you can legally download and run are those which were ORIGINALLY released into the Public Domain at their creation by IBM that is MFT, MVS, DOS/VSE and VM/370. Whilst these are direct predecessors of the above, and almost any user mode code that your write on one of the boxes will run on the current equivalent, they are not, IMHO, a good way to learn about modern mainframe usage.

The other thing that I would say about Mainframes is that I would guess in one “shop” no one knows everything. I guess that its no longer true, but there used to be teams of folks looking after the various sub-systems of the OS, so no one person knew how everything worked
.

Now moving forward, assuming you want to learn about zOS which is the descendant of MVT and MVS, and probably the one that most folks would think of if you said “IBM Mainframe” to them, then IBM have a “Red Book” here :-

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg246366.html?Open

which is an introduction to zOS. There appears to be a free to use Mainframe here:-

http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser

but I have never used it.

If you are happy to tinker then look for the latest Turnkey , I haven’t found the link, I assume it is in the H390-MVS group


Dave Wade
P.S. there is a downloadable copy of zVM on the IBM site. I am not a lawyer and really have no idea if it could legally be run on Hercules, but although I am a VM person I will be the first to say “VM” is not what most folks think of as being “commercial mainframe usage”


From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 11 October 2015 08:09
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe



Hi,


I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and operating system(s).

Ive looked at the various web pages that contain information about Hercules, and I have to admit that im slightly overwhelmed with the amount of information, and I have a hard time finding the best place to start. Can anyone recommend any web pages/papers/tutorials/etc that would be a good place to start learning about the IBM Mainframe and Hercules, from the ground up, for a completely new user ?

Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,


Thanks,


- Maarten
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 08:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is basically a Hardware simulator so it needs software to make it run.
Yes, I realized that ;)
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
It also does not emulate IBM terminals so you probably need an IBM3270 emulator to run.
There are several available free for most platforms.
X3270 is probably a good one to start with.
Thanks for pointing out X3270. Im currently running Windows, and could only find commercial tn3270 emulators for that OS thus far.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
There are basically four Operating Systems that can be loaded onto a Mainframe and IBM have
decided that for the three to which they own the legal rights, zOS, zVM and zVSE you are not
allowed to download and run them on Hercules, even in order to teach yourself about current mainframes.
I sort of got from reading FAQs that the latest IBM Operating Systems could not be run legally on Hercules, but I was hoping that the public domain versions would be helpful in learning about the current versions.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The fourth operating system commonly used is Linux, of course there is a zLinux flavour.
I have experience with Linux on Intel/AMD, but am currently not looking into the specifics of running Linux on the Mainframe.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Ignoring zLinux the only IBM Operating systems you can legally download and run are those which
were ORIGINALLY released into the Public Domain at their creation by IBM that is MFT, MVS,
DOS/VSE and VM/370. Whilst these are direct predecessors of the above, and almost any user mode code
that your write on one of the boxes will run on the current equivalent, they are not, IMHO, a good way to
learn about modern mainframe usage.
Thats unfortunate. I really was hoping the public domain software would be a good starting point on understanding the current Mainframe, at least in the way that the software works, if not in the current hardware architecture.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Now moving forward, assuming you want to learn about zOS which is the descendant of MVT and MVS,
Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop', were/are: MVS, CICS, TSO, IMS, JCL, TPF, RACF.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
and probably the one that most folks would think of if you said “IBM Mainframe” to them,
then IBM have a “Red Book” here :-
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg246366.html?Open
which is an introduction to zOS.
Thanks. Ill start on reading through that one, then.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you are happy to tinker then look for the latest Turnkey , I haven’t found the link, I assume it is
in the H390-MVS group

I dont mind tinkering, as long as at least some of it maps to the current implementations/versions, which you said it doesnt.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave Wade
Thanks for the information and your time.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
P.S. there is a downloadable copy of zVM on the IBM site. I am not a lawyer and really have no idea
if it could legally be run on Hercules,
I doubt it ;)
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
but although I am a VM person I will be the first to say “VM” is not what most folks think of
as being “commercial mainframe usage”
Thanks for pointing that out.


- Maarten
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
were ORIGINALLY released into the Public Domain at their creation by IBM that is MFT, MVS,
DOS/VSE and VM/370. Whilst these are direct predecessors of the above,
and almost any user mode code
that your write on one of the boxes will run on
the current equivalent,
In my opinion, THAT is the money quote.
The programs you write on MVS 3.8j will
work just fine on z/OS.

You haven't specified whether you are a
programmer or not. If you are, what
languages do you know, or are you up
for learning new languages?
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
they are not, IMHO, a good way to
learn about modern mainframe usage.
I that should have a "depending" attached
to it. I personally write C programs that
work fine on MVS 3.8j running as 24-bit
and the exact same module runs as 31-bit
on z/OS. I have no real reason to need
access to a real z/OS system. I've been
working fine for the last 10+ years on
MVS 3.8j and MVS/380.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thats unfortunate. I really was hoping
the public domain software would be
a good starting point on understanding
the current Mainframe, at least in the
way that the software works, if not in
the current hardware architecture.
In my opinion one of the big differences
between PCs and mainframes is the way
that data is stored. While a PC has a
line-ending of CRLF, mainframe files
instead have an RDW. You can learn
about these things just fine on the old
versions of operating systems.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop',
were/are: MVS,
This is available as standard in TK etc.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
CICS,
A semi-clone of this is freely available called
KICKS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TSO,
This is available as standard.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IMS,
Last I heard, this is not available.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
JCL,
This is available as standard.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TPF,
This is not available as far as I know, and
regardless, it is a rival to MVS, so doesn't
come with any version of MVS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
RACF.
A semi-clone of this is available called RAKF.

BFN. Paul.
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
were ORIGINALLY released into the Public Domain at their creation by IBM that is MFT, MVS,
DOS/VSE and VM/370. Whilst these are direct predecessors of the above,
and almost any user mode code
that your write on one of the boxes will run on
the current equivalent,
In my opinion, THAT is the money quote.
The programs you write on MVS 3.8j will
work just fine on z/OS.
I guess I am primarily looking for a 'work-a-like' system.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You haven't specified whether you are a
programmer or not. If you are, what
languages do you know, or are you up
for learning new languages?
My daytime job is being a Unix/Linux system administrator, that often has to interact with IBM Mainframes in some way or the other. Besides that, I have a personal interest to delve deeper into how the system works. So Im more of a system administrator than a programmer, although it would be helpful if would learn more about writing and submitting batch jobs that retrieve/modify data/configuration info on the Mainframe.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thats unfortunate. I really was hoping
the public domain software would be
a good starting point on understanding
the current Mainframe, at least in the
way that the software works, if not in
the current hardware architecture.
In my opinion one of the big differences
between PCs and mainframes is the way
that data is stored. While a PC has a
line-ending of CRLF, mainframe files
instead have an RDW. You can learn
about these things just fine on the old
versions of operating systems.
Now its starting to sound interesting ;)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop',
were/are: MVS,
This is available as standard in TK etc.
Cool.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
CICS,
A semi-clone of this is freely available called
KICKS.
Thanks for pointing that out, ill go look for that then.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TSO,
This is available as standard.
Cool.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IMS,
Last I heard, this is not available.
Alright, I guess Ill have my hands full with the other stuff for now anyway. ;)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
JCL,
This is available as standard.
Cool.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TPF,
This is not available as far as I know, and
regardless, it is a rival to MVS, so doesn't
come with any version of MVS.
Thanks, at least I now know it's a rival to MVS.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
RACF.
A semi-clone of this is available called RAKF.
Thanks ill go look for that as well then.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
BFN. Paul.
Thanks for your feedback and time.



- Maarten
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
In my opinion, THAT is the money quote.
The programs you write on MVS 3.8j will
work just fine on z/OS.
I guess I am primarily looking for a 'work-a-like' system.
I should point out that I believe a lot of
people download a bootleg version of
z/OS, perhaps called ADCD, and I've
never heard of any individual ever being
sued by IBM for doing so for hobbyist
use. I'm personally not interested in
that, as my interest is enhancing
MVS 3.8j to include z/OS features so
that it can be used legally by
companies.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You haven't specified whether you are a
programmer or not. If you are, what
languages do you know, or are you up
for learning new languages?
My daytime job is being a Unix/Linux system
administrator, that often has to interact with
IBM Mainframes in some way or the other.
Such as doing file transfers and needing
to specify things like RECFM=VB and
LRECL=132 and BLKSIZE=27998?

You don't need z/OS to play around with
that.

You can also log on to TSO and go to
RPF/ISPF option 3.4 to find all files
that start with a particular name and
then browse them. No need for z/OS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Besides that, I have a personal interest to
delve deeper into how the system works.
So Im more of a system administrator than
a programmer, although it would be helpful
if would learn more about writing and
submitting batch jobs that retrieve/modify
data/configuration info on the Mainframe.
You can do all that writing/submitting
batch jobs on MVS 3.8j.

If you wish to modify data, you may need
to write an actual program. What sort of
modification of data did you have in mind?
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
In my opinion one of the big differences
between PCs and mainframes is the way
that data is stored. While a PC has a
line-ending of CRLF, mainframe files
instead have an RDW. You can learn
about these things just fine on the old
versions of operating systems.
Now its starting to sound interesting ;)
Cool. And of course since you are on
Unix, you are used to line endings
being just NL.

What I told you before about RDW is
only applicable to RECFM=V files.
There is also RECFM=F and RECFM=U
available. You might be interested in
reading this:

http://mvs380.sourceforge.net/System380.txt

That is something that I (mostly) wrote as an
introduction to mainframes for C programmers
(sort of).
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
A semi-clone of this is freely available called
KICKS.
Thanks for pointing that out, ill go look for that then.
I think it might be bundled with TK4-.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
A semi-clone of this is available called RAKF.
Thanks ill go look for that as well then.
I'm pretty sure this is bundled in TK4-.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks for your feedback and time.
No problem. Welcome to the world of
mainframes. :-)

BFN. Paul.
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 10:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I should point out that I believe a lot of
people download a bootleg version of
z/OS, perhaps called ADCD
It doesnt look like that is a bootleg, but rather an official IBM product aimed at developers and ISVs, that requires $$$ to get and use:

http://dtsc.dfw.ibm.com/adcd/adcd.html
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You can do all that writing/submitting batch jobs on MVS 3.8j.
Great.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
bundled with TK4-.
Alright, Ill go and see if I can get TK4- running on Hercules, then. As soon as ive finished the 700+ page redbook on Z/OS ;)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
No problem. Welcome to the world of
mainframes. :-)
Thanks.
:)




- Maarten
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 10:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I should point out that I believe a lot of
people download a bootleg version of
z/OS, perhaps called ADCD
It doesnt look like that is a bootleg, but rather
an official IBM product aimed at developers
http://dtsc.dfw.ibm.com/adcd/adcd.html
Sorry for not being clear. Yes, I believe
the magic thing people look for is ADCD,
but as you noted, it costs money, so
people get it from some other source
(I'm not familiar where the illegal
download sites are). So many Hercules
users are (I believe) running a bootleg
(free download) version of MVS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
As soon as ive finished the 700+ page redbook on Z/OS ;)
I was wondering how long an
"introduction" to the massive
beast known as "MVS" is. You
will have much more fun if you
simply jump in at the deep end
and say "TK4- is saying xyz,
now I want to do abc, what do I
need to do?". If the readme file
that came with TK4- didn't
already anticipate and answer that
question, then I consider your
feedback as a new user to be
an excellent pointer towards the
next update.

BFN. Paul.
Vince Coen vbcoen@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:26:55 UTC
Permalink
As a newby regarding IBM mainframes playing with Hercules and the
Turnkey 4 package which is at update 7 will help you understand :

MVS principles which will relate to z/OS but with fewer functions say
for JCL but anything learnt for MVS (3.8J as supplied with Turnkey) can
be used with z/OS but note that procedures, compiler names along with
their procedures will be different but that can apply to an site
running IBM m/f as they have a habit of changing names so that any new
hire has to learn them.

This does not apply to the basic and standard MVS utilities where many
of not most still exist.

Using BAL (Assembler) is that is your bent can also be applied to the
later OS's (Operating Systems) again with for functions, instructions as
the hardware has expanded.

Using high level languages - PL/1, Cobol has moved on again over the
years and for newer hardware with the most noticeable being the Cobol
compiler which is from the 70's and was replaced fairly quickly with VS
COBOL I (and II).

That said again it is a good introduction to the m/f even if somewhat of
a large backward step if you already know Cobol.
If a newby on Cobol it will act as a reasonably good training tool
although using GNU Cobol on Linux or Windows will work better in
learning a up to date version of the Cobol compiler and the Cobol
standards. The Gnu Cobol compiler contain a fair number of features that
are not yet in the current IBM Cobol compilers.

CICS, RACF etc are available with MVS 3.8 although via 3rd party
implementations and do the job for say an application programmer but
clearly not for a system programmer / support as it is not IBM's
products and implementation will not be the same.

In a nut shell playing with MVS 3.8J as installed with the Turnkey 4,
update 7 implementation is a very good starting point and it is free to use.

There are a few sites that have a z/OS system available for people to
play with but most if not all state that it is NOT a learning facility
for students.

There again everyone using a m/f is always learning new things almost
every day.

Same applies to Windows and even Linux to some extent.

Get the Red books for z/OS from the IBM website it is a set of five (or
may be more now) but there is a nice intro to it in one volume.

All are free to download.

Vince
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hercules is basically a Hardware simulator so it needs software to
make it run.
Yes, I realized that ;)
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
It also does not emulate IBM terminals so you probably need an
IBM3270 emulator to run.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
There are several available free for most platforms.
X3270 is probably a good one to start with.
Thanks for pointing out X3270. Im currently running Windows, and could
only find commercial tn3270 emulators for that OS thus far.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
There are basically four Operating Systems that can be loaded onto a
Mainframe and IBM have
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
decided that for the three to which they own the legal rights, zOS,
zVM and zVSE you are not
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
allowed to download and run them on Hercules, even in order to teach
yourself about current mainframes.
I sort of got from reading FAQs that the latest IBM Operating Systems
could not be run legally on Hercules, but I was hoping that the public
domain versions would be helpful in learning about the current versions.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The fourth operating system commonly used is Linux, of course there
is a zLinux flavour.
I have experience with Linux on Intel/AMD, but am currently not
looking into the specifics of running Linux on the Mainframe.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Ignoring zLinux the only IBM Operating systems you can legally
download and run are those which
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
were ORIGINALLY released into the Public Domain at their creation by
IBM that is MFT, MVS,
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
DOS/VSE and VM/370. Whilst these are direct predecessors of the
above, and almost any user mode code
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
that your write on one of the boxes will run on the current
equivalent, they are not, IMHO, a good way to
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
learn about modern mainframe usage.
Thats unfortunate. I really was hoping the public domain software
would be a good starting point on understanding the current Mainframe,
at least in the way that the software works, if not in the current
hardware architecture.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Now moving forward, assuming you want to learn about zOS which is
the descendant of MVT and MVS,
Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop', were/are: MVS, CICS, TSO, IMS, JCL, TPF, RACF.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
and probably the one that most folks would think of if you said “IBM
Mainframe” to them,
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
then IBM have a “Red Book” here :-
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg246366.html?Open
which is an introduction to zOS.
Thanks. Ill start on reading through that one, then.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you are happy to tinker then look for the latest Turnkey , I
haven’t found the link, I assume it is
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
in the H390-MVS group

I dont mind tinkering, as long as at least some of it maps to the
current implementations/versions, which you said it doesnt.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave Wade
Thanks for the information and your time.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
P.S. there is a downloadable copy of zVM on the IBM site. I am not a
lawyer and really have no idea
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
if it could legally be run on Hercules,
I doubt it ;)
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
but although I am a VM person I will be the first to say “VM” is not
what most folks think of
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
as being “commercial mainframe usage”
Thanks for pointing that out.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop', were/are: MVS, CICS, TSO, IMS, JCL, TPF, RACF.
Its hard to know how recent an OS you are using because MVS is still often used by older staff when they are actually running zOS. The others are all MVS sub-systems, or components. Apart from TSO none of the others are included in the free MVS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I dont mind tinkering, as long as at least some of it maps to the current implementations/versions, which you said it doesnt.
Well the JCL is the similar, the base TSO commands are the same but the rest is probably nothing like. There is no CICS, IMS, TPF or RACF in the free MVS systems. There are things which are functionally equivalent but that’s not a great way to learn. There is TSO but I believe that most shops run ISPF which is a menu driven front end, so they don’t really ever use TSO and again there is no free version of ISPF.



What is your motivation behind learning Mainframe? Do you want to know how to manage it, operate it, program it, or just get an overview, or something else




Dave Wade

G4UGM
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:37:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
there is no free version of ISPF.
RPF is available, which is a reasonable
substitute unless you're trying to write
your own code and panels.

BFN. Paul.
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 09:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What is your motivation behind learning Mainframe? Do you want to know how to manage it,
operate it, program it, or just get an overview, or something else

I guess I will have to start off with an overview, just so I can place all the individual components correctly. Im assuming the IBM redbook 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics' will do that job ? Next, Im a Unix/Linux admin that often has to deal with retrieving or modifying data on the Mainframe (either user data sets or configuration information), and writing/submitting batch jobs to do the same. So I guess I am also looking for 'work-a-like' JCL ? Besides that, I am also just curious about how the software operates, from an administrator's point of view.



- Maarten
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 10:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I guess I will have to start off with an overview,
just so I can place all the individual components
correctly. Im assuming the IBM redbook
'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics'
will do that job ?
While I haven't actually read that, I would
guess that it is going to be heavy-going,
covering much more than you need,
and it would be much more fun to simply
get your hands dirty from day 1.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Next, Im a Unix/Linux admin
that often has to deal with retrieving
or modifying data on the Mainframe
(either user data sets or configuration
information), and writing/submitting
batch jobs to do the same. So I guess
I am also looking for 'work-a-like' JCL ?
I suggest you just download the latest
TK4- and write a simple IEBGENER
JCL to read from instream JCL and
outputting to the printer.

Then replace IEBGENER with
COPYFILE and experiment with
the different format output
(ie RECFM) options and inspecting
the output with IDCAMS PRINT
DUMP so you can see the internals.

Anyway, all of this is using MVS (or
z/OS), and there are different forums
for MVS-specific stuff. Those forums
are as follows.


This group has the most number of
members and does not cater to any
particular distribution of MVS:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/H390-MVS/info


This group is predominantly for the
MVS/380 distribution of MVS, but
the rules are lax. I'm the owner of
this group and I don't expect you to
rtfm before posting a question, as
I expect the onus to be on the
software distributor to ensure that
rtfm is not required. At least not
beyond half of one page as per
somitcw.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-os380/info


This group is (nominally) for questions that
are specific to the TK3 or TK4- MVS
distributions. The alternative distribution
MVS/380 is considered to be off-topic:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/turnkey-mvs/info


Another thing I'd like to note is that it is
only the TK4- distribution (with custom
Hercules) that gives you ftp ability which
might be useful to you.

Note that I personally run MVS/380 (with
a custom Hercules) because I want to
be able to compile large C programs and
some other features (tape handling
mainly). This is probably not much use
for you to start with.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Besides that, I am also just curious about
how the software operates, from an
administrator's point of view.
Like compressing PDSes? You can
experiment with that on TK4- too.
Allocate a PDS and write some
members until you fill it up, then
delete some members and find
that you still can't write because
it's still full, so you need to run
the utility IEBCOPY to do a
compress.

BFN. Paul.
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 15:22:22 UTC
Permalink
OK, well I think the Red Book will tell you that. I also am aware that there are various replacements available to replace ISPF, CICS and RACF and whilst they offer similar APIs and end user experience the way they are administered and managed is somewhat different. I would read the RED book and then decide if you want to play with MVS. Also whilst code you write on MVS will work on zOS, if you ae writing new code you probably wouldn’t write code that way on a modern system. So whilst you will learn the really basic things don’t assume the modern Mainframe works that way


Dave

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 11 October 2015 10:59
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe



Hi,
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What is your motivation behind learning Mainframe? Do you want to know how to manage it,
operate it, program it, or just get an overview, or something else

I guess I will have to start off with an overview, just so I can place all the individual components correctly. Im assuming the IBM redbook 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics' will do that job ? Next, Im a Unix/Linux admin that often has to deal with retrieving or modifying data on the Mainframe (either user data sets or configuration information), and writing/submitting batch jobs to do the same. So I guess I am also looking for 'work-a-like' JCL ? Besides that, I am also just curious about how the software operates, from an administrator's point of view.


- Maarten
hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 15:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics' redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware architecture concepts.

I successfully downloaded and started an initial run of the MVS 3.8j Tur(n)key 4- System, and that was surprisingly easy to do. Just unzip, run a batch file, and the turnkey manual tells you how to log on and shutdown the system. (Although I seem to be having some issue restarting now, just re-running 'start_herc.bat' doesnt seem to get me back to a 3270 logon prompt, but perhaps that is a question for the Turnkey-MVS group).

But I guess what Im looking for now, is newbee/introductory documentation for MVS (3.8j). Things like loggin on/off, looking around, accessing data on devices, printing, etc. Is there some MVS absolute beginner documentation somewhere ? Or maybe I should just save that question for the Turnkey-MVS group as well.


- Maarten



---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

OK, well I think the Red Book will tell you that. I also am aware that there are various replacements available to replace ISPF, CICS and RACF and whilst they offer similar APIs and end user experience the way they are administered and managed is somewhat different. I would read the RED book and then decide if you want to play with MVS. Also whilst code you write on MVS will work on zOS, if you ae writing new code you probably wouldn’t write code that way on a modern system. So whilst you will learn the really basic things don’t assume the modern Mainframe works that way


Dave

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 11 October 2015 10:59
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe





Hi,
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What is your motivation behind learning Mainframe? Do you want to know how to manage it,
operate it, program it, or just get an overview, or something else

I guess I will have to start off with an overview, just so I can place all the individual components correctly. Im assuming the IBM redbook 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics' will do that job ? Next, Im a Unix/Linux admin that often has to deal with retrieving or modifying data on the Mainframe (either user data sets or configuration information), and writing/submitting batch jobs to do the same. So I guess I am also looking for 'work-a-like' JCL ? Besides that, I am also just curious about how the software operates, from an administrator's point of view.



- Maarten
s skip@monobath.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 16:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Maarten,

Given your background as a Linux systems administrator who has to
interface with mainframe systems, you may find portions of the 13 volume
set of Redbooks called "ABCs of IBM z/OS System Programming" of
interest. Note that the collection pertains to current versions of
z/OS, not to the older public domain MVS 3.8J systems.

You may want to get acquainted with the TK4 system as a normal user, first.

You may find Jay Mosely's site of interest too.
http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/installMVS/install.htm

It documents building an MVS 3.8J system from distribution libraries. I
followed these instructions when I built a 3.8J a few years ago. TK4 is
probably easier to install, although I haven't tried.

Good luck.
Skip
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS
Basics' redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware
architecture concepts.
I successfully downloaded and started an initial run of the MVS 3.8j
Tur(n)key 4- System, and that was surprisingly easy to do. Just unzip,
run a batch file, and the turnkey manual tells you how to log on and
shutdown the system. (Although I seem to be having some issue
restarting now, just re-running 'start_herc.bat' doesnt seem to get me
back to a 3270 logon prompt, but perhaps that is a question for the
Turnkey-MVS group).
But I guess what Im looking for now, is newbee/introductory
documentation for MVS (3.8j). Things like loggin on/off, looking
around, accessing data on devices, printing, etc. Is there some MVS
absolute beginner documentation somewhere ? Or maybe I should just
save that question for the Turnkey-MVS group as well.
- Maarten
OK, well I think the Red Book will tell you that. I also am aware that
there are various replacements available to replace ISPF, CICS and
RACF and whilst they offer similar APIs and end user experience the
way they are administered and managed is somewhat different. I would
read the RED book and then decide if you want to play with MVS. Also
whilst code you write on MVS will work on zOS, if you ae writing new
code you probably wouldn’t write code that way on a modern system. So
whilst you will learn the really basic things don’t assume the modern
Mainframe works that way

Dave
*Sent:* 11 October 2015 10:59
*Subject:* RE: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What is your motivation behind learning Mainframe? Do you want
to know how to manage it,
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
operate it, program it, or just get an overview, or something else

I guess I will have to start off with an overview, just so I can place
all the individual components correctly. Im assuming the IBM redbook
'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics' will do that job ?
Next, Im a Unix/Linux admin that often has to deal with retrieving or
modifying data on the Mainframe (either user data sets or
configuration information), and writing/submitting batch jobs to do
the same. So I guess I am also looking for 'work-a-like' JCL ? Besides
that, I am also just curious about how the software operates, from an
administrator's point of view.
- Maarten
Vince Coen vbcoen@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 17:32:34 UTC
Permalink
The one I have that is more s/w oriented is:

SG24-6366-02-Introduction to ZOS Basics.pdf

For OS/390 I have these and I think somewhere I have the same for Z/OS -

SG24-5597-00-ABCs of OS390 System Programming Volume 1.pdf
SG24-5652-00-ABCs of OS390 System Programming Volume 2.pdf
SG24-5653-00-ABCs of OS390 System Programming Volume 3.pdf
SG24-5654-00-ABCs of OS390 System Programming Volume 4.pdf
SG24-5655-00-ABCs of OS390 System Programming Volume 5.pdf

You will need to search the IBM documents library.

You can get the entire book shelf for z/OS by version as well.

Now as for tk4.update.7 etc read the primary document in the doc folder
(MVS_TK4-_v1.00_Users_Manual.pdf) and Jay's website that will in turn
point to some others.

I downloaded all of the useful one's and created a ring binder of them
all which saves me looking up the IBM manuals often
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS
Basics' redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware
architecture concepts.
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 19:12:37 UTC
Permalink
You know, one of the funny things about IBM manuals is that almost every one of them has the disclaimer, "this is not a tutorial". But, if you WANTED a tutorial, where are you supposed to go? They never say.


Another funny line in IBM manuals says things like this when describing some error condition: "Probable user error. Contact your systems programmer for assistance.". However, they say THAT in the systems programmer manuals! Where are THEY supposed to go?


The truth is, IBM's manuals are almost all written the same way. They contain vast amounts of details, but they are not going out of their way to help you. You have be your own "tutor" as it were.


To me, perhaps the best-written IBM manual is the Principles of Operation. They have to write that properly, because without it, no one would know how their machines worked. Pretty much everything you need to know about the hardware is in there, if only you can understand what they are saying.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 21:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
You know, one of the funny things about IBM manuals is that almost every
one of them has the disclaimer, "this is not a tutorial". But, if you
WANTED a tutorial, where are you supposed to go? They never say.
I don't know the current status, but in the 360/370 days, IBM offered
formal training in assorted subjects, and also sold self-study training
courses. One of my colleagues took one of their courses, out of town,
and on the first night read the manual they gave him. After that he knew
more than the instructor <g>

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 21:47:25 UTC
Permalink
I have been on a number of IBM courses, admittedly a long time ago, but they were good. The Introduction to zOS Redbook is definitely a training aid. There are RedBook workshops here:-

http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/projects.nsf/WorkshopIndex?Open

not sure if any of the initiatives here:-

https://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/24483.wss

are still active or accessible...
.. and a search on "TSO ISPF COURSES" brings up lots of links....

Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 October 2015 22:30
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
You know, one of the funny things about IBM manuals is that almost
every one of them has the disclaimer, "this is not a tutorial". But,
if you WANTED a tutorial, where are you supposed to go? They never say.
I don't know the current status, but in the 360/370 days, IBM offered formal
training in assorted subjects, and also sold self-study training courses. One of
my colleagues took one of their courses, out of town, and on the first night
read the manual they gave him. After that he knew more than the instructor
<g>
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 20:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics'
redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware architecture
concepts.
Huh? "mostly hardware" ?

ch1,2 deal with hardware, the rest of the pdf is all software

ch 4 - TSO
ch 5 - Data Sets
ch 6 - Job Control Language
ch 7 - Batch processing
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I successfully downloaded and started an initial run of the MVS 3.8j
Tur(n)key 4- System, and that was surprisingly easy to do. Just unzip, run a
batch file, and the turnkey manual tells you how to log on and shutdown the
system.
The batch files are great for getting you up and running quickly.

On my Tk4- , I've disabled most of the automatic stuff, and run the
IPL manually, as I like to have access to the MVS console (see the
TK4- manual under "Manual Operations"

(Although I seem to be having some issue restarting now, just
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
re-running 'start_herc.bat' doesnt seem to get me back to a 3270 logon
prompt, but perhaps that is a question for the Turnkey-MVS group).
Are you running on Windows ?
That might be a windows issue with TCPIP. I find that sometimes
tcpip ports don't get "closed" / "cleared" / reset, and the quickest
solution is to change the CNSLPORT in the hercules config file.
(Otherwise rebooting the box / windows)
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is newbee/introductory documentation
for MVS (3.8j). Things like loggin on/off, looking around, accessing data on
devices, printing, etc. Is there some MVS absolute beginner documentation
somewhere ? Or maybe I should just save that question for the Turnkey-MVS
group as well.
Look on Jay Mosely's site, he has some good tutorials.

Also Volkker's Tk3 "Cook books"
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 20:55:57 UTC
Permalink
While it might be more "low level" than you are interested in, Tommy
Sprinkle has two great tutorial sites,

one on 3270 programming,
http://www.tommysprinkle.com/mvs/P3270/start.htm


the other on "bare metal" O.S. development :
http://tommysprinkle.com/txxos/

Download the principles of Operation manuals. The 390 and Z/os ones
are on IBM's sites, the

370 one (for MVS 3.8) is on bitsavers
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/princOps/GA22-7000-4_370_Principles_Of_Operation_Sep75.pdf

The ABC'S of System Programming mentioned earlier, is also a great
resource, and is as close to a tutorial as you'll find from IBM ;)
Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics'
redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware architecture
concepts.
Huh? "mostly hardware" ?
ch1,2 deal with hardware, the rest of the pdf is all software
ch 4 - TSO
ch 5 - Data Sets
ch 6 - Job Control Language
ch 7 - Batch processing
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I successfully downloaded and started an initial run of the MVS 3.8j
Tur(n)key 4- System, and that was surprisingly easy to do. Just unzip, run a
batch file, and the turnkey manual tells you how to log on and shutdown the
system.
The batch files are great for getting you up and running quickly.
On my Tk4- , I've disabled most of the automatic stuff, and run the
IPL manually, as I like to have access to the MVS console (see the
TK4- manual under "Manual Operations"
(Although I seem to be having some issue restarting now, just
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
re-running 'start_herc.bat' doesnt seem to get me back to a 3270 logon
prompt, but perhaps that is a question for the Turnkey-MVS group).
Are you running on Windows ?
That might be a windows issue with TCPIP. I find that sometimes
tcpip ports don't get "closed" / "cleared" / reset, and the quickest
solution is to change the CNSLPORT in the hercules config file.
(Otherwise rebooting the box / windows)
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is newbee/introductory documentation
for MVS (3.8j). Things like loggin on/off, looking around, accessing data on
devices, printing, etc. Is there some MVS absolute beginner documentation
somewhere ? Or maybe I should just save that question for the Turnkey-MVS
group as well.
Look on Jay Mosely's site, he has some good tutorials.
Also Volkker's Tk3 "Cook books"
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 05:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Well I browsed through the 'Introduction to the New Mainframe zOS Basics'
redbook, and it seems to mostly focuses on z/ hardware architecture
concepts.
Huh? "mostly hardware" ?
ch1,2 deal with hardware, the rest of the pdf is all software
ch 4 - TSO
ch 5 - Data Sets
ch 6 - Job Control Language
ch 7 - Batch processing
Oops. Guess I flipped through the 700+ pager too quickly. Ill give it a
second look.
(Although I seem to be having some issue restarting now, just
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
re-running 'start_herc.bat' doesnt seem to get me back to a 3270 logon
prompt, but perhaps that is a question for the Turnkey-MVS group).
Are you running on Windows ?
That might be a windows issue with TCPIP. I find that sometimes
tcpip ports don't get "closed" / "cleared" / reset, and the quickest
solution is to change the CNSLPORT in the hercules config file.
(Otherwise rebooting the box / windows)
Yes, Im running on Windows. It looks like I just used the wrong bat file:
'start_herc.bat' seems to be for the initial setup, and 'mvs.bat' for
subsequent runs/startups ?
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is newbee/introductory
documentation
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
for MVS (3.8j). Things like loggin on/off, looking around, accessing data on
devices, printing, etc. Is there some MVS absolute beginner
documentation
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
somewhere ? Or maybe I should just save that question for the Turnkey-MVS
group as well.
Look on Jay Mosely's site, he has some good tutorials.
Also Volkker's Tk3 "Cook books"
Will do that.


Thanks.


- Maarten.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 01:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is
newbee/introductory documentation for
MVS (3.8j).
I think you did the right thing by getting
your hands dirty already.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Things like loggin on/off, looking around,
To log in, try typing in "HERC01" from
the terminal.

After logging in, try typing "RPF" and
then choosing option 3, then 4, then
put in a "beginning name" (high level
qualifier) of "HERC01" and see if you
get a list of files, then try putting "B"
to browse them, and PF3 to exit.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
accessing data on devices, printing, etc.
To print something you need to run
a batch job. Try running this:

C:\mvs380_work\iebgener>type iebgen.jcl
//MYJOB JOB CLASS=C,REGION=0K
//*
//S1 EXEC PGM=IEBGENER
//SYSUT1 DD *
LINE 1
LINE TWO
/*
//SYSUT2 DD SYSOUT=*
//SYSIN DD DUMMY
//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*
//

C:\mvs380_work\iebgener>


And look on the PC to see if you have
some data in the "prt" directory. Take
a look at the file, even if it says it is
0 bytes in size.

That assumes you know how to submit
a batch job though. There are at least
2 ways of doing that.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Is there some MVS absolute beginner
documentation somewhere ?
Not sure. Someone mentioned that
the TK4- distribution comes with a
manual. Try that.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Or maybe I should just save that question
for the Turnkey-MVS group as well.
Or at least H390-MVS. Note that some
important contributors (Scott, Gerhard
and somitcw) are only in H390-MVS
and hercules-os380, not turnkey-mvs.

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 01:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is
newbee/introductory documentation for
MVS (3.8j).
BTW, as you go through this process,
can I ask that you document your
difficulties and make recommendations
for doco/distribution changes?

In my opinion every user should be
guided to logging on, browsing and
editing a file, and submitting a batch
job as part of the installation.

BFN. Paul.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is
newbee/introductory documentation for
MVS (3.8j).
BTW, as you go through this process,
can I ask that you document your
difficulties and make recommendations
for doco/distribution changes?
In my opinion every user should be
guided to logging on, browsing and
editing a file, and submitting a batch
job as part of the installation.
BFN. Paul.
I was planning on taking notes for myself already, so I guess Ill see if I
can turn that into something that is useful for others as well, as soon as
I figured out for myself what Im doing ;).


- Maarten.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


Thanks for all the examples. Ill try the H390-MVS group as well then, as
soon as Ive gone through all the info ive gotten here and on the Turnkey-MVS
group already. I think Ill have my hands full with that for now, though. ;)


- Maarten.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But I guess what Im looking for now, is
newbee/introductory documentation for
MVS (3.8j).
I think you did the right thing by getting
your hands dirty already.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Things like loggin on/off, looking around,
To log in, try typing in "HERC01" from
the terminal.
After logging in, try typing "RPF" and
then choosing option 3, then 4, then
put in a "beginning name" (high level
qualifier) of "HERC01" and see if you
get a list of files, then try putting "B"
to browse them, and PF3 to exit.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
accessing data on devices, printing, etc.
To print something you need to run
C:\mvs380_work\iebgener>type iebgen.jcl
//MYJOB JOB CLASS=C,REGION=0K
//*
//S1 EXEC PGM=IEBGENER
//SYSUT1 DD *
LINE 1
LINE TWO
/*
//SYSUT2 DD SYSOUT=*
//SYSIN DD DUMMY
//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*
//
C:\mvs380_work\iebgener>
And look on the PC to see if you have
some data in the "prt" directory. Take
a look at the file, even if it says it is
0 bytes in size.
That assumes you know how to submit
a batch job though. There are at least
2 ways of doing that.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Is there some MVS absolute beginner
documentation somewhere ?
Not sure. Someone mentioned that
the TK4- distribution comes with a
manual. Try that.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Or maybe I should just save that question
for the Turnkey-MVS group as well.
Or at least H390-MVS. Note that some
important contributors (Scott, Gerhard
and somitcw) are only in H390-MVS
and hercules-os380, not turnkey-mvs.
BFN. Paul.
Robert Prins robert.ah.prins@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 13:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
There appears to be a free to use Mainframe here:-
http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser
but I have never used it.
But decided to create a userid (G4UGM) on it anyway. <G>

Behave yourself! I've BCC'ed this email to the de-facto boss, so he knows you're
a Herculean, and should leave you in peace, unless you really start messing
around. I'm PRINO on that system, and will grant RACF READ access to my datasets
to those who ask - datasets of others are strictly off limits, they're all RACF
protected!

FanDeZhi is an z/OS ADCD 1.6 system, the long promised upgrade to something more
up-to-date has never materialized, with some software from later versions of
z/OS. Ze'ev Atlas has used it to convert PCRE to Cobol, and I know someone was
trying to breath some fresh air into InfoZIP, but don't know the status of that
project.

It runs under Hercules on a Linux system somewhere in Canada, and if it hadn't
been for issues with the underlying hardware, the uptime would now have been
close to two years!

FanDeZhi was set up for use by experienced IBM mainframe professionals that can
no longer use employer provided systems because they unemployed or are retired
but still have an itch to retain some skills, but most of out, in most cases
very temporary users seem to be newbies and trainees dumped onto the system by
here-today-gone-tomorrow "training institutes" in countries typically used by
outsourcing companies, and even outsourcing companies themselves.

I personally use it to keep my PL/I, REXX and ISPF skills current, although I
actually have a full Enterprise PL/I V4.x compatible compiler for Windows, and
also use Regina on Windows. My greatest annoyance with Regina is the lack of a
full featured EXECIO z/OS compatible implementation...

Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert.ah.prins(a)gmail.com
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 14:17:38 UTC
Permalink
You can get nearly all of the current z/OS manuals from IBM. One thing to be aware of is that IBM doesn't keep their "current" manuals available indefinitely. You can get them for 4 or 5 or 6 versions back, but after that they start to disappear. So, if you wanted to grab a set of PDF's for z/OS, and you don't want manuals that are too new and describe features you will never have access to, you should go on their web site and grab as many as you can, at your earliest convenience.
opplr@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 15:09:38 UTC
Permalink
hoes.maarten & kerravon86 wrote:

"> Keywords I often heard drop at the 'shop',
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
were/are: MVS,
This is available as standard in TK etc.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
CICS,
A semi-clone of this is freely available called
KICKS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TSO,
This is available as standard.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
IMS,
Last I heard, this is not available.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
JCL,
This is available as standard.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
TPF,
This is not available as far as I know, and
regardless, it is a rival to MVS, so doesn't
come with any version of MVS.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
RACF.
A semi-clone of this is available called RAKF."

Dropped words often leave off the specific version in use locally.

MVS 3.8j is in TK3 and TK4- turnkey distributions
MVS 3.7 is the starter pack included with them.

KICKS is available ( last time I looked ) but not distributed with any Turnkey.

RPF & RFE both offer a substitute for ISPF under TSO.
No intregrated REXX. Ported BREXX is included in TK3UPDATE distro IIRC.

IMS is available as DL/I in MVT 21.8 ( think version is correct - it's been a while ) Doesn't run under MVS 3.8j as DCB and other items are different between the two environments.

Another difference between MVT 21.8 and MVS 3.8j causes COBOL compiler to abend if XREF is specified in COBOL parms. Works fine under MVT as that is the original platform for the compiler to run upon.

JCL has been enhanced since the 3.8j era ( 70's & 80's ).

TSS/370 is another freely available OS. It works fine if card reader is utilized to run jobs. It has a glitch with terminal activity almost every time jobs are executed. Causes an OS subsystem to abend ( ? ) almost always non-recoverable, have to re-IPL.

RAKF is installed and active in the TK4- distro. Not installed in any TK3.

For some of available compilers for MVS 3.8j with easy install see:

http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/compilers/list_of.htm http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/compilers/list_of.htm

Jay has several other pages on his web site for learning about MVS. You might want to check them out.


http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/ http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/

You might want to keep in mind the system built using Jay Moseley's instructions is not TK3 or TK4-. The guide for TK3 is:

http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/ http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/

With most of the stuff in the TK4 wishlist incorporated in TK3UPDATE.

Volker also has many pages of guides for utilities and such on the site.

Work flow wall chart of MVS 3.8j, also known as VS2:

Loading Image... http://www.prycroft6.com.au/misc/download/GV25-6719-0_MVSflow_repaint.gif

Greg has other pages as well for software and info for z/OS and VS2.

http://www.prycroft6.com.au/software.html http://www.prycroft6.com.au/software.html


Phil - back to hibernation
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
IMS is available as DL/I in MVT 21.8 ( think version is correct - it's
been a while )
Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
Doesn't run under MVS 3.8j as DCB and other items are different between
the two environments.
<- Insert newbee questions alert here ->

Is 'MVT' another IBM Mainframe OS that is freely available, and runs under
Hercules ?
Whats 'DL/I' ? Whats 'DC' ?
Are you implying that you can run some version of IMS under Hercules ? If
so, details please. ;)


- Maarten.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:39:31 UTC
Permalink
MVT is older than MVS but newer than MFT and all are evolutions of what we call “OS”



MFT => a Fixed Number of Tasks (But I think you could vary the partition sizes)

MVT => A Variable number of Tasks, but no virtual storage.

MVS => Variable number of tasks with Virtual Storage.



Not sure about what you get with DL/1 it’s a very early version


“DCB” is a “Data Control Block” so sort of equivalent to a “FILE” structure in UNIX. Maps logical I/O to Physical i/o.

Something must have changed between MVT and MVS and DL/1 does not like the change.

A bit odd as most programs from MVT work fine in MVS




Dave







From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:30
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe








Hi,
Post by ***@hotmail.com [hercules-390]
IMS is available as DL/I in MVT 21.8 ( think version is correct - it's been a while )
Doesn't run under MVS 3.8j as DCB and other items are different between the two environments.
<- Insert newbee questions alert here ->

Is 'MVT' another IBM Mainframe OS that is freely available, and runs under Hercules ?
Whats 'DL/I' ? Whats 'DC' ?

Are you implying that you can run some version of IMS under Hercules ? If so, details please. ;)



- Maarten.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 23:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
MFT => a Fixed Number of Tasks (But I think you could vary the partition sizes)
Partition sizes could be redefined, provided all affected partitions
were idle.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
MVT => A Variable number of Tasks, but no virtual storage.
PCP - single task using the entire machine (pre-MFT)

PCP, MFT II, and MVT were the same distribution. The flavor was
determined by sysgen options.

SVS - variable number of tasks using virtual 16MiB regardless of real
memory size.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Something must have changed between MVT and MVS and DL/1 does not like the change.
A bit odd as most programs from MVT work fine in MVS

In early OS/360 the DCB macro expanded only the fields required by the
parameters, and defined the name field with an EQU *-16 for many. I
don't recall when that changed (21.8?), but it was severe enough that I
had to reassemble most programs. Offhand I don't recall any other
changes that might cause problems.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 02:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Is 'MVT' another IBM Mainframe OS that is
freely available, and runs under Hercules ?
Just a clarification on the answers you have
already been given. MVT is basically the
old name for MVS. MFT is another old name
for MVS. PCP and OS/360 are also old
names for MVS. They are not rivals, they
are just predecessors that have been made
obsolete by MVS.

I know that OS/360 is freely available, but
don't know about any others. There is
almost no reason to want to run a
predecessor to MVS 3.8j, and haven't
heard of anyone doing anything serious
on any predecessor.

BFN. Paul.
Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 03:38:35 UTC
Permalink
APL\360 runs on OS/360 MFT 21.8F with no more than 8MB of memory.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Is 'MVT' another IBM Mainframe OS that is
freely available, and runs under Hercules ?
Just a clarification on the answers you have
already been given. MVT is basically the
old name for MVS. MFT is another old name
for MVS. PCP and OS/360 are also old
names for MVS. They are not rivals, they
are just predecessors that have been made
obsolete by MVS.
I know that OS/360 is freely available, but
don't know about any others. There is
almost no reason to want to run a
predecessor to MVS 3.8j, and haven't
heard of anyone doing anything serious
on any predecessor.
BFN. Paul.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 15:09:33 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 11 October 2015 14:48
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
There appears to be a free to use Mainframe here:-
http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser
but I have never used it.
But decided to create a userid (G4UGM) on it anyway. <G>
I was hoping to be able to report on how it worked but did not get the e-mail in time...
.. I also wanted to look at ISPF etc.
Behave yourself! I've BCC'ed this email to the de-facto boss, so he knows
you're a Herculean, and should leave you in peace, unless you really start
messing around. I'm PRINO on that system, and will grant RACF READ access
to my datasets to those who ask - datasets of others are strictly off limits,
they're all RACF protected!
I always behave myself
FanDeZhi is an z/OS ADCD 1.6 system, the long promised upgrade to
something more up-to-date has never materialized, with some software
from later versions of z/OS. Ze'ev Atlas has used it to convert PCRE to Cobol,
and I know someone was trying to breath some fresh air into InfoZIP, but
don't know the status of that project.
It runs under Hercules on a Linux system somewhere in Canada, and if it
hadn't been for issues with the underlying hardware, the uptime would now
have been close to two years!
FanDeZhi was set up for use by experienced IBM mainframe professionals
that can no longer use employer provided systems because they
unemployed or are retired but still have an itch to retain some skills, but most
of out, in most cases very temporary users seem to be newbies and trainees
dumped onto the system by here-today-gone-tomorrow "training institutes"
in countries typically used by outsourcing companies, and even outsourcing
companies themselves.
I personally use it to keep my PL/I, REXX and ISPF skills current, although I
actually have a full Enterprise PL/I V4.x compatible compiler for Windows,
and also use Regina on Windows. My greatest annoyance with Regina is the
lack of a full featured EXECIO z/OS compatible implementation...
Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert.ah.prins(a)gmail.com
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 01:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 02:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
You have? Then what were the Daleks and Cybermen, and Yetis doing? And
speaking of which.....
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 03:02:11 UTC
Permalink
You were there too, weren't you Gregg? At the dinner/booze evening at
VCF-East this past April, with that train wreck of a guy singing who
just would not get off the stage.

The Yetis were present in healthy numbers; I believe they're who
finally got that annoying guy to shut up and put down the microphone.
Or maybe that was Kelly Leavitt, I'm not sure.

-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
You have? Then what were the Daleks and Cybermen, and Yetis doing? And
speaking of which.....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 03:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
I was indeed at VCF-East, but Dave W and I missed each other again.
That beer bust? Yes I arranged for them to do that. Wasn't easy....
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
You were there too, weren't you Gregg? At the dinner/booze evening at
VCF-East this past April, with that train wreck of a guy singing who
just would not get off the stage.
The Yetis were present in healthy numbers; I believe they're who
finally got that annoying guy to shut up and put down the microphone.
Or maybe that was Kelly Leavitt, I'm not sure.
-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
You have? Then what were the Daleks and Cybermen, and Yetis doing? And
speaking of which.....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 03:22:46 UTC
Permalink
I don't know how you missed him, he was easily the most fun guy there,
next to you and I of course! ;)

-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I was indeed at VCF-East, but Dave W and I missed each other again.
That beer bust? Yes I arranged for them to do that. Wasn't easy....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
You were there too, weren't you Gregg? At the dinner/booze evening at
VCF-East this past April, with that train wreck of a guy singing who
just would not get off the stage.
The Yetis were present in healthy numbers; I believe they're who
finally got that annoying guy to shut up and put down the microphone.
Or maybe that was Kelly Leavitt, I'm not sure.
-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
You have? Then what were the Daleks and Cybermen, and Yetis doing? And
speaking of which.....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 03:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
That's because I forgot to leave markers on this list indicating what
I look like, or did look like then. As it happens that was my efforts
to look more like the Eighth in a series of Twelve.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
I don't know how you missed him, he was easily the most fun guy there,
next to you and I of course! ;)
-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I was indeed at VCF-East, but Dave W and I missed each other again.
That beer bust? Yes I arranged for them to do that. Wasn't easy....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
You were there too, weren't you Gregg? At the dinner/booze evening at
VCF-East this past April, with that train wreck of a guy singing who
just would not get off the stage.
The Yetis were present in healthy numbers; I believe they're who
finally got that annoying guy to shut up and put down the microphone.
Or maybe that was Kelly Leavitt, I'm not sure.
-Dave
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
You have? Then what were the Daleks and Cybermen, and Yetis doing? And
speaking of which.....
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I always behave myself
Ahhahahaaa!! I've partied with you, my friend. I know better. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 03:57:19 UTC
Permalink
If you want to run MVS or DOS/VS, and you want a PC-based editor that you can use to submit jobs to Hercules, I would like to recommend the SPFLite editor. Check out


http://www.spflite.com http://www.spflite.com


This may be of some help to you.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 04:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If you want to run MVS or DOS/VS, and
you want a PC-based editor that you can
use to submit jobs to Hercules, I would
like to recommend the SPFLite editor.
Note that this is a good option if you
are familiar with (or wish to learn) the
MVS editor that is part of ISPF.

If instead you are used to "vi" or
"notepad" or whatever you use to
do work on the PC, you may use
that and send your files up using
the card reader or ftp.

Note that I do all my mainframe
work using micro-emacs on Windows.
I have scripts to start MVS, run a
batch job, capture the output, and
return to the Windows prompt.
Most people do not do that though.
Most people prefer to start MVS
and keep it running while they do
their work.

BFN. Paul.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If you want to run MVS or DOS/VS, and
you want a PC-based editor that you can
use to submit jobs to Hercules, I would
like to recommend the SPFLite editor.
Note that this is a good option if you
are familiar with (or wish to learn) the
MVS editor that is part of ISPF.
Ah. I guess this editor just made my short-list, then. Thanks.


- Maarten.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


I guest my first step is to use an editor that is native to the Mainframe.
Having a work alike editor thats native to my PC is a next step is guess.

- Maarten.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If you want to run MVS or DOS/VS, and you want a PC-based editor that you
can use to submit jobs to Hercules, I would like to recommend the SPFLite
editor. Check out
http://www.spflite.com
This may be of some help to you.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I guest my first step is to use an editor that
is native to the Mainframe.
There are two freely-available editors
for MVS 3.8j. RPF option 2 (etc) and
REVIEW. Neither editor is exactly like,
or as good as, ISPF with z/OS, but
they are both close enough that you
probably won't know any difference.
REVIEW is the most advanced, I
believe.
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Having a work alike editor thats native
to my PC is a next step is guess.
SPFlite is another ISPF-like editor,
but I don't know how it stacks up
against REVIEW.

BFN. Paul.
Jack Woehr jwoehr@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 21:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in
order to learn about and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that roughly translates to
the latest versions of the IBM architecture and operating system(s).
Oldies but goodies:

http://www.amazon.com/MVS-Concepts-Facilities-Ranade-Series/dp/0070326738

http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Handbook-Ranade-Series/dp/0070236860
--
Jack Woehr # "There's too much emphasis on things
Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # like pawn structure in modern chess.
http://www.softwoehr.com # Checkmate ends the game." - N. Short
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 05:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems interesting
and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook' not as much ?), I may try to
get a secondhand copy of that book.


- Maarten
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM
Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about
and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that
roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and
operating system(s).
http://www.amazon.com/MVS-Concepts-Facilities-Ranade-Series/dp/0070326738
http://www.amazon.com/The-Systems-Handbook-Ranade-Series/dp/0070236860
--
Jack Woehr # "There's too much emphasis on things
Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # like pawn structure in modern chess.http://www.softwoehr.com # Checkmate ends the game." - N. Short
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook' not as much
VM, like DOS/VSE and (the very rare) TPF,
is (sort of) a rival to MVS and thus not relevant.

BFN. Paul.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook' not as much
VM, like DOS/VSE and (the very rare) TPF,
is (sort of) a rival to MVS and thus not relevant.
TPF is rare ? Alright, didnt know that. It's in use at the shop were I used
to work. Guess it's an Airline thing, then.


- Maarten.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 07:20:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
VM, like DOS/VSE and (the very rare) TPF,
is (sort of) a rival to MVS and thus not relevant.
TPF is rare ? Alright, didnt know that. It's in
use at the shop were I used to work.
Guess it's an Airline thing, then.
Yes, that's exactly who uses TPF - airlines.
Initial versions of TPF were probably
public domain, but as far as I know, no-one
saved a copy of the PD versions so
hobbyists have nothing to use. But even
if there was a hobbyist version available,
it would probably not be used any more
than MTS (another non-IBM rival to MVS)
is used.

MVS is where all the action is.

BFN. Paul.
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Not just an airline thing. It was originally written just for the VISA
Credit Card people. Then it was adapted for airline ticketing,
although they have the CICS product also.

At least however you're having fun, that is also a good thing.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook' not as much
VM, like DOS/VSE and (the very rare) TPF,
is (sort of) a rival to MVS and thus not relevant.
TPF is rare ? Alright, didnt know that. It's in use at the shop were I used to work. Guess it's an Airline thing, then.
- Maarten.
Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 15:37:01 UTC
Permalink
I believe z/TPF runs your production system, but you still have to do your
development under z/OS.
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook' not as much
VM, like DOS/VSE and (the very rare) TPF,
is (sort of) a rival to MVS and thus not relevant.
TPF is rare ? Alright, didnt know that. It's in use at the shop were I
used to work. Guess it's an Airline thing, then.
- Maarten.
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Jack Woehr jwoehr@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 15:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
--
Jack Woehr # "There's too much emphasis on things
Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # like pawn structure in modern chess.
http://www.softwoehr.com # Checkmate ends the game." - N. Short
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems
interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands
full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older
freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set
some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else
later.
;)

- Maarten
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:27:09 UTC
Permalink
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF) then its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by using the LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.



Dave



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe








Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else later.

;)

- Maarten
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former') site
runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base this on,
that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the required
(sub-)systems that are in use.

Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of
running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under them, in
the same way that LPAR is used ?

NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical Partition) as
related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume that IBM borrowed the
naming and technology from the mainframe.


- Maarten.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF) then its
worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by using the LPAR
feature on the modern boxes
.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems
interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands
full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older
freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set
some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else
later.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
;)
- Maarten
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Firstly I suspect IBM LPARS are older than UNIX LPARS dating back to around 1995, although VM goes further back so is older.

Modern VM (zVM) uses the same underlying technology as the LPAR to create and manage the VM’s, so in effect microcode virtualization




Basically LPARS are “free” (they come with the hardware, but you may have to pay as well) but because of this they may be harder to manage and have some limitations on how the machine can be divided up, but these are getting less.

Originally you had to dedicate a whole disk pack (DASD) to an LPAR. Not sure that is true anymore, and with SANS it may not even be an issue, but any way zVM allows a DASD to be partitioned into MiniDisks giving greater granularity.



So zVM is more flexible, but it costs money, and I guess in these cash strapped days folks probably want to eliminate it. On the other hand if you have a few hundred Linux machines you may find it usefull
.



Dave









From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:38
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe








Hi,



I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former') site runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base this on, that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the required (sub-)systems that are in use.

Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?

NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical Partition) as related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume that IBM borrowed the naming and technology from the mainframe.



- Maarten.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF) then its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by using the LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else later.
;)
- Maarten
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 21:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Oops I find that LPARS and hardware virtualization have been around since 1985 and the IBM3090. I think Amdahl had something even earlier




http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=3090 <http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=3090&ft=MEMO&args=lpar#hit> &ft=MEMO&args=lpar#hit



Dave



From: Dave G4UGM [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:53
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe



Firstly I suspect IBM LPARS are older than UNIX LPARS dating back to around 1995, although VM goes further back so is older.

Modern VM (zVM) uses the same underlying technology as the LPAR to create and manage the VM’s, so in effect microcode virtualization




Basically LPARS are “free” (they come with the hardware, but you may have to pay as well) but because of this they may be harder to manage and have some limitations on how the machine can be divided up, but these are getting less.

Originally you had to dedicate a whole disk pack (DASD) to an LPAR. Not sure that is true anymore, and with SANS it may not even be an issue, but any way zVM allows a DASD to be partitioned into MiniDisks giving greater granularity.



So zVM is more flexible, but it costs money, and I guess in these cash strapped days folks probably want to eliminate it. On the other hand if you have a few hundred Linux machines you may find it usefull
.



Dave









From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:38
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe







Hi,

I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former') site runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base this on, that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the required (sub-)systems that are in use.

Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?

NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical Partition) as related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume that IBM borrowed the naming and technology from the mainframe.

- Maarten.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF) then its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by using the LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing Abel :)
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else later.
;)
- Maarten
Mick Graley mick.graley@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 08:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Dave,
I was just about to chime in that our old 3090/600J had LPARs back when I
started in 1989, but you corrected yourself before I had a chance :-)
Cheers,
Mick.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Oops I find that LPARS and hardware virtualization have been around since
1985 and the IBM3090. I think Amdahl had something even earlier

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=3090&ft=MEMO&args=lpar#hit
Dave
*Sent:* 12 October 2015 22:53
*Subject:* RE: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Firstly I suspect IBM LPARS are older than UNIX LPARS dating back to
around 1995, although VM goes further back so is older.
Modern VM (zVM) uses the same underlying technology as the LPAR to create
and manage the VM’s, so in effect microcode virtualization

Basically LPARS are “free” (they come with the hardware, but you may have
to pay as well) but because of this they may be harder to manage and have
some limitations on how the machine can be divided up, but these are
getting less.
Originally you had to dedicate a whole disk pack (DASD) to an LPAR. Not
sure that is true anymore, and with SANS it may not even be an issue, but
any way zVM allows a DASD to be partitioned into MiniDisks giving greater
granularity.
So zVM is more flexible, but it costs money, and I guess in these cash
strapped days folks probably want to eliminate it. On the other hand if you
have a few hundred Linux machines you may find it usefull
.
Dave
*Sent:* 12 October 2015 22:38
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former') site
runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base this on,
that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the required
(sub-)systems that are in use.
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of
running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under them, in
the same way that LPAR is used ?
NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical Partition) as
related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume that IBM borrowed the
naming and technology from the mainframe.
- Maarten.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF) then
its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by using the
LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems
interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without knowing
Abel :)
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my hands
full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although in an older
freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like Ill have to set
some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first, everything else
later.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
;)
- Maarten
--
Cheers,

Mick.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 22:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

First off, thanks for the info. It's appreciated.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Firstly I suspect IBM LPARS are older than UNIX LPARS
I suspect a terminology conflict here ;)
I was just saying IBM Mainframe LPARs were here first, and then IBM
Unix/AIX LPARs were introduced around, oh I dont know, 2005 ? And then the
naming and technology for IBM Unix/AIX LPARs were probably 'borrowed' from
the older IBM Mainframe LPAR technology.

Of course, I may be mistaken.

- Maarten
Mike Myers mike@mentor-services.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 00:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Maarten:

A little history for your egarding VM and LPARs.

I was in MVS design and development at IBM Poughkeepsie up to about
1981, when I was reassigned, eventually winding up in VM design and
development after a stint at IBM research. A very close friend of mine,
Karl Finkemeyer (now deceased) had come up with the idea of PR/SM
(Processor Resource/System Manager - the IBM product that first provided
LPARs) while working at the Heidelburg Scientific Center. His idea he
termed "the thin layer". His concept re-surfaced during a task force in
which Karl and I participated regarding the future of MVS and VM around
1980 and started down the road to reality (though it took another 7
years to come to fruition).

As it was being mulled over, another associate of mine, Jim Lum, who was
a senior engineer in the area where I was working at the time was
pushing for the idea that the Control Program (CP) component of VM
should be converted to microcode to create PR/SM. By the time PR/SM was
released. I was well into my first consulting assignment, having left
IBM in 1984. So I am not certain how PR/SM was actually implemented, but
functionally, I have always believed that Jim was right with the idea of
microcoding CP to create it.

Some others from that era may be able to clarify the story, but it
pretty apparent that the capabilities of CP and PR/SM are very much
alike. It would be interesting to hear from any others who might have
more details.

Mike Myers
Senior z/OS Systems Programmer
Mentor Services Corporation
Goldsboro, NC
(919) 341-5210
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former')
site runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base
this on, that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the
required (sub-)systems that are in use.
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way
of running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under
them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical it apparent
that Partition) as related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume
that IBM borrowed the naming and technology from the mainframe.
- Maarten.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF)
then its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by
using the LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems
interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without
knowing Abel :)
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my
hands full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although
in an older freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like
Ill have to set some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first,
everything else later.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
;)
- Maarten
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 03:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Wow...Thank you for that nice bit of history!

(and for your work!)

-Dave
Post by Mike Myers ***@mentor-services.com [hercules-390]
A little history for your egarding VM and LPARs.
I was in MVS design and development at IBM Poughkeepsie up to about
1981, when I was reassigned, eventually winding up in VM design and
development after a stint at IBM research. A very close friend of mine,
Karl Finkemeyer (now deceased) had come up with the idea of PR/SM
(Processor Resource/System Manager - the IBM product that first provided
LPARs) while working at the Heidelburg Scientific Center. His idea he
termed "the thin layer". His concept re-surfaced during a task force in
which Karl and I participated regarding the future of MVS and VM around
1980 and started down the road to reality (though it took another 7
years to come to fruition).
As it was being mulled over, another associate of mine, Jim Lum, who was
a senior engineer in the area where I was working at the time was
pushing for the idea that the Control Program (CP) component of VM
should be converted to microcode to create PR/SM. By the time PR/SM was
released. I was well into my first consulting assignment, having left
IBM in 1984. So I am not certain how PR/SM was actually implemented, but
functionally, I have always believed that Jim was right with the idea of
microcoding CP to create it.
Some others from that era may be able to clarify the story, but it
pretty apparent that the capabilities of CP and PR/SM are very much
alike. It would be interesting to hear from any others who might have
more details.
Mike Myers
Senior z/OS Systems Programmer
Mentor Services Corporation
Goldsboro, NC
(919) 341-5210
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I have no idea if my (i really should get used to saying 'former')
site runs VM or not. Im just assuming, and really have nothing to base
this on, that they are running LPAR virtual machines for all the
required (sub-)systems that are in use.
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way
of running virtual machines with operating systems running in/under
them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
NOTE: I only have a frame of reference for LPAR (Logical it apparent
that Partition) as related to the Unix/AIX world. Although I assume
that IBM borrowed the naming and technology from the mainframe.
- Maarten.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:27 PM, 'Dave G4UGM'
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If your site runs VM (and I suspect they might as they have TPF)
then its worth looking at LATER but I think many modern sites get by
using the LPAR feature on the modern boxes
.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
Sent: 12 October 2015 22:19
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Thanks. The 'MVS: Concepts and Facilities' particularly seems
interesting and relevant (the 'VM/ESA Systems Handbook'
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
not as much ?), I may try to get a secondhand copy of that book.
Knowing MVS without knowing VM is like knowing Cain without
knowing Abel :)
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Perhaps youre right. However, it currently looks like Ill have my
hands full with getting a handle on MVS (which is available, although
in an older freely available revision, for Hercules), so it looks like
Ill have to set some priorities. Which right now look like: MVS first,
everything else later.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
;)
- Maarten
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Jack Woehr jwoehr@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-13 04:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)
--
Jack Woehr # "There's too much emphasis on things
Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # like pawn structure in modern chess.
http://www.softwoehr.com # Checkmate ends the game." - N. Short
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 12:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of
running virtual machines with operating
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)
Alright. So to sum it up:

Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions.
LPARs were here first
(z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful
LPARs 'come with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed
product
Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some
shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM

Correct ?


- Maarten.


PS: Some folks might argue that we are slowly drifting off topic here, but
the subject *was* 'Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe', so I guess
all of these messages are still relevant ;)
'skip@monobath.com skip@monobath.com' skip@monobath.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 12:41:35 UTC
Permalink
VM/370 was released in 1972. The first LPARs were introduced in commercial
mainframes in the early to mid-'80s.
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of
running virtual machines with operating
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)
Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions.
LPARs were here first
(z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful
LPARs 'come with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed
product
Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some
shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM
Correct ?
- Maarten.
PS: Some folks might argue that we are slowly drifting off topic here, but
the subject *was* 'Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe', so I guess
all of these messages are still relevant ;)
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 12:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions. LPARs were
here first (z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful LPARs 'come
with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed product
Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some
shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM
Correct ?
It's correct if you remove the (). LPARs came before z/VM, but older
versions of VM came before LPARs. VM/370 was first released in 1972. And
VM's ancestor, CP/CMS, dates back to the '60s.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 13:01:36 UTC
Permalink
And VM's ancestor, CP/CMS, dates back to the '60s.
In my books it is ancestor_S (multiples)

CMS as an operating system, that was able to handle a real machine (a
360/40) with a real (system) disk at 190 and a work disk at 191 (card
reader at 00C - console at 00F, printer at 00E)

Now with advent of virtual storage (and faster machines) instead of
doing it like all the others did (implement the mechanics into the
op-sys) C_ambridge M_onitor S_ystem was left the way it was and a
hyper-visor called CP (doing the work of paging) was introduced.

Next step- why not support multiple CMS(guest)s and make the
hardware invisible to the CMS. To intercept interaction with the
real stuff a system has to be in privileged mode- if the CMS system
is in non privileged mode all the time, all attempts for interaction
with real hardware could be intercepted.... and here we go CP67
is on the stage - which morphed into VM/370 (with a CP part and
CMS as a "crippled" opsys for a single user) with the option to
have any of the the other 370 based op-sys as guests (including
VM itself).
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
'Mark L. Gaubatz' mgaubatz@groupgw.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 20:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Also, if one is to look at OS simulation in CMS source code, one finds
references to OS/PCP inserted in the early CP/67 days and the creation of
CMS.



Mark



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 06:02
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
And VM's ancestor, CP/CMS, dates back to the '60s.
In my books it is ancestor_S (multiples)

CMS as an operating system, that was able to handle a real machine (a
360/40) with a real (system) disk at 190 and a work disk at 191 (card
reader at 00C - console at 00F, printer at 00E)

Now with advent of virtual storage (and faster machines) instead of
doing it like all the others did (implement the mechanics into the
op-sys) C_ambridge M_onitor S_ystem was left the way it was and a
hyper-visor called CP (doing the work of paging) was introduced.

Next step- why not support multiple CMS(guest)s and make the
hardware invisible to the CMS. To intercept interaction with the
real stuff a system has to be in privileged mode- if the CMS system
is in non privileged mode all the time, all attempts for interaction
with real hardware could be intercepted.... and here we go CP67
is on the stage - which morphed into VM/370 (with a CP part and
CMS as a "crippled" opsys for a single user) with the option to
have any of the the other 370 based op-sys as guests (including
VM itself).
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 12:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Have to be a bit carefull


CP67 (S/360 Model 67) Hypervisor, VM/370 (Oldest, free) and VM/SP (newer chargeable) came first. These were originally software Virtualization Products and work by running the users program in “Problem State” , intercepting privileged instructions, and simulating (Faking?) the results. For this to work reading the Program Status (and anything else that would allow a program to see what mode it is in) word needs to be a privileged. It is in S/370 mode but not XA and later modes.

In order to speed up VM/SP when running a program like MVS that does a lot of work in Supervisor State IBM introduced “Assists”. This is Microcode that simulates certain operations that take a lot of work in software. From what I remember it is called “Extended control program support” or ECPS for short. So when running on a machine with ECPS:VM, VM/SP and VM/370 are partially software hypervisors and partly microcode Hypervisors.

VM/XA, VMESA and zVM are almost entirely Microcode Hypervisors but some elements of VM/370 remain. So I am not sure how much of the CP Spooling came across from SP but it works in a similar way. Any way these Hypervisors use the SIE (Start Interpretive Execution) to dispatch Virtual Machines and the SIE control blocks specify how the machine is to be emulated. SIE Assists allow the Hardware/Microcode to speed up processing.

I found this:-

http://www.vm.ibm.com/devpages/bitner/presentations/virtualb.pdf

which is a presentation from IBM that explains this in more detail. One thing I note is that VM allows you to over commit on Memory which LPARS do not. If you have many VMs this would be a good advantage.

Dave Wade

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 14 October 2015 13:28
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe





Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)
Alright. So to sum it up:

Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions.
LPARs were here first
(z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful
LPARs 'come with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed product
Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM
Correct ?


- Maarten.


PS: Some folks might argue that we are slowly drifting off topic here, but the subject *was* 'Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe', so I guess all of these messages are still relevant ;)
Mick Graley mick.graley@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 14:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,



Interesting presentation, but it got me wondering about a few things.



I've never really been a VM person. I've dabbled with CMS a little bit when
possible. I've also dabbled a little bit with the OS/360 MFT starter system
for installing and genning another OS/360 MFT or MVT system, but never
really got very far with it. I've never used a real card reader or punch
before as I started as a programmer on MVS/XA back in 1989 with ISPF/PDF
edit on 3270s.



From my lurking on these groups I've always thought that VM only
virtualised certain real devices depending on the release of VM and the
underlying hardware, with not a massive amount of backward compatibility.
i.e. I believe that z/VM can’t virtualise S/360 processors or 3330 disks
etc. However, CMS uses certain "standard" virtual devices that I’m guessing
it might not be possible to connect to a modern zSeries machine, like 2540
card readers/punches.



So my questions are:



1) Can these old unit record devices really be connected to a modern
zSeries machine?



2) Where are the supported device types for a given release of VM
documented?



The question I’ve wondered about the most for the longest time:



3) Where does the “standard” CMS device configuration come from?

(It looks like a sub-set of the minimum machine configuration to run the
MFT starter system as documented in the OS/360 sysgen manual).



Also:



4) Does this CMS virtual machine break the rules from the point of view of
I/O devices that can really be connected to a zSeries machine?



Cheers,



Mick.
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Have to be a bit carefull

CP67 (S/360 Model 67) Hypervisor, VM/370 (Oldest, free) and VM/SP
(newer chargeable) came first. These were originally software
Virtualization Products and work by running the users program in
“Problem State” , intercepting privileged instructions, and simulating
(Faking?) the results. For this to work reading the Program Status (and
anything else that would allow a program to see what mode it is in) word
needs to be a privileged. It is in S/370 mode but not XA and later modes.
In order to speed up VM/SP when running a program like MVS that does a
lot of work in Supervisor State IBM introduced “Assists”. This is Microcode
that simulates certain operations that take a lot of work in software. From
what I remember it is called “Extended control program support” or ECPS for
short. So when running on a machine with ECPS:VM, VM/SP and VM/370 are
partially software hypervisors and partly microcode Hypervisors.
VM/XA, VMESA and zVM are almost entirely Microcode Hypervisors but some
elements of VM/370 remain. So I am not sure how much of the CP Spooling
came across from SP but it works in a similar way. Any way these
Hypervisors use the SIE (Start Interpretive Execution) to dispatch Virtual
Machines and the SIE control blocks specify how the machine is to be
emulated. SIE Assists allow the Hardware/Microcode to speed up processing.
I found this:-
http://www.vm.ibm.com/devpages/bitner/presentations/virtualb.pdf
which is a presentation from IBM that explains this in more detail. One
thing I note is that VM allows you to over commit on Memory which LPARS do
not. If you have many VMs this would be a good advantage.
Dave Wade
*Sent:* 14 October 2015 13:28
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe
Hi,
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way
of running virtual machines with operating
Post by Jack Woehr ***@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)
Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions.
LPARs were here first
(z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful
LPARs 'come with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed product
Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some
shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM
Correct ?
- Maarten.
PS: Some folks might argue that we are slowly drifting off topic here, but
the subject *was* 'Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe', so I guess
all of these messages are still relevant ;)
--
Cheers,

Mick.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 15:11:34 UTC
Permalink
1) Can these old unit record devices really be connected to a modern zSeries machine?
If the machine has BUS and TAG channels then it should be possible.
2) Where are the supported device types for a given release of VM documented?
Used to be In the announcement letter, but there is now a table in the Planning Guide



http://www.vm.ibm.com/library/zvmpdf.html
3) Where does the “standard” CMS device configuration come from?
(It looks like a sub-set of the minimum machine configuration to run the MFT starter system as documented in the OS/360 sysgen manual).
I guess it is from CP67 and the standard 360/67 configuration which had a Multiplexor Channel as Channel 0 and a Selector Channel as Channel 1 (If I remember properly)
4) Does this CMS virtual machine break the rules from the point of view of I/O devices that can really be connected to a zSeries machine?
No. CMS has some virtual Unit Record Devices (Printer/Punch/Reader) which are mostly used to provide communications between CMS VM’s via the system Spool.

These are purely “Virtual” devices that CP simulates for the CMS VMs.

So when you “Punch” or “print” from a CMS VM the output goes to the CP (That’s VM the hypervisor) spool.



That data usually ends up on another VM’s reader.

If that VM is a CMS VM then the user can read them in. There are utilities (DISK DUMP, SENDFILE) that will package files into 80-byte card images so any file can be sent via the spool.

If that VM is the RSCS system then they may end up anywhere else that’s connected to the RSCS network, it could be a remote plotter, a SNA printer, whatever.

If you are running MVS in a VM then it could be the MVS reader.



Remember each CMS user has their one personal Virtual Machine and for a long time the CP Spool was the only way for CMS users to communicate.

There was no multi-user file system in VM for a long time, so users could not share data by disk.



Dave
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-15 14:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
1) Can these old unit record devices really be connected to a modern
zSeries machine?
If the machine has BUS and TAG channels then it should be possible.
Somewhere around the z10/z11 time frame only fiber based channels were
supported by the hardware. BUS and TAG channels ceased being supported.
Depending upon when you mean by "modern" the answer could be yes or no.

The software running in the system would influence whether they could
actually be used, assuming the hardware devices still worked.

Harold Grovesteen
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-15 15:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Somewhere around the z10/z11 time frame only fiber based channels were
supported by the hardware. BUS and TAG channels ceased being supported.
Where I work our current mainframe only has fiber based channels. We have
one BUS/TAG device left, a 3174-11L. We had more BUS/TAG devices when our
current mainframe was installed. We had to get some ESCON <-> BUS/TAG
converters to connect those devices. BUS and TAG is still possible with
semi-modern hardware. Our mainframe is an older 2086.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 15:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Mick,

I caused the "confusion" - so let me try to answer
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
However, CMS uses certain "standard" virtual devices that I’m guessing
it might not be possible to connect to a modern zSeries machine, like 2540
card readers/punches.

CMS at some point in the distant past lost the ability to run on a real
machine. It has no clue about details of DASD or TP devices (passes
control via DIAG i believe to CP which does the work for it).

UR devices are very very slow- so SPOOLing was introduced (and again
not into CMS but into CP). Some UR devices have certain characteristics
and must be handled differently (i.e. page printer take a whole page as
opposed to line printer) CP knows all that and handles it. It does
_NOT_ do that for DASD-devices (i.e. simulate a 3350)
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
1) Can these old unit record devices really be connected to a modern
zSeries machine?
I do not know- possible if a channel with the needed characteristics to
connect to a controller (which in turn controls the device) could
be ordered and connected.
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2) Where are the supported device types for a given release of VM
documented?

z/VM: CP Planning and Administration
SC24-6178-03 for 6.2
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
3) Where does the “standard” CMS device configuration come from?
From the real 360/40 that CMS originally controlled
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
(It looks like a sub-set of the minimum machine configuration to run the
MFT starter system as documented in the OS/360 sysgen manual).

MFT was already a 370 type system (for hardware that came out around
7 years later). I had my first exposure to hardware (mounting the
op-sys disks and such) on a machine with a console on 00F the reader
on 00C and the printer on 00E ..... DASD was on Channel 2xx - tapes
on 1xx.
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
Jack Woehr jwoehr@softwoehr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 14:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating
systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?
THE history of VM from the High Priestess thereof.

http://www.leeandmelindavarian.com/Melinda/neuvm.pdf
--
Jack Woehr # "There's too much emphasis on things
Box 51, Golden CO 80402 # like pawn structure in modern chess.
http://www.softwoehr.com # Checkmate ends the game." - N. Short
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 23:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator,
and the IBM Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules
on my PC, in order to learn about and teach myself
how the IBM Mainframe operates. [...]
<snip>
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,
Is something like the following what you were maybe hoping for?

http://www.mainframes360.com/2010/01/what-on-earth-is-mainframe.html


After taking a look at the web pages in their "Learn" -> "Getting Started" menu hierarchy, it is IMO probably the best *introduction* to mainframes you're ever going to get, anywhere. It walks you step by step through the basic concepts before moving gradually onto more advanced topics.

Hope that helps and welcome to the wonderful world of mainframes!


--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
ferland.rene@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-11 23:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello Maarten,

Since Fish is mentioning YouTube, you may want to look there at the IBM Academic initiative videos. I was able to find 23 of them at least, the first ones of which are probably the most interesting to you:


http://youtu.be/STD_C0TPb04
http://youtu.be/vOiHiI7b9iY

http://youtu.be/lgg_4lBQHNw



Yours truly,


Rene FERLAND, Montreal
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


Thanks. Ill take a look at those video's.


- Maarten
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hello Maarten,
Since Fish is mentioning YouTube, you may want to look there at the IBM
Academic initiative videos. I was able to find 23 of them at least, the
http://youtu.be/STD_C0TPb04
http://youtu.be/vOiHiI7b9iY
http://youtu.be/lgg_4lBQHNw
Yours truly,
Rene FERLAND, Montreal
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 1:09 AM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator,
and the IBM Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules
on my PC, in order to learn about and teach myself
how the IBM Mainframe operates. [...]
<snip>
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,
Is something like the following what you were maybe hoping for?
http://www.mainframes360.com/2010/01/what-on-earth-is-mainframe.html
I quickly browsed through those, and yes, that looks like what I was hoping
for. Thanks.


- Maarten
Gonzalo Martin Barrio gonzalobarrio@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Besides everything that was already suggested (ie. hands-on with Hercules
and older-but-legally-and-freely-available-OSes; redbooks), I recently
discovered and registered for IBM's Master The Mainframe.
It's a contest for students (not sure if they check if you actually are
one), where you get to learn about Mainframes with hands-on
exercises/challenges.

I'm doing it at the moment and it's pretty interesting, though I hardly
believe it'll make you master the Mainframe, but at least you get some
experience and knowledge to start with.
Of course, it's under z/OS 2.1, so if you later want to apply some of what
you learned in MVS 3.8j or similar, it may be different.

Here's the link; although it already started I think they still accept
registration:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/academic/masterthemainframe/

Additionally, there's the IBM z Systems: Course Materials for the community:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/skills_coursematerials.html

And you can look for courses/education here:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/

Hope this helps.

Enjoy! :)
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM
Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about
and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that
roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and
operating system(s).
Ive looked at the various web pages that contain information about
Hercules, and I have to admit that im slightly overwhelmed with the amount
of information, and I have a hard time finding the best place to start. Can
anyone recommend any web pages/papers/tutorials/etc that would be a good
place to start learning about the IBM Mainframe and Hercules, from the
ground up, for a completely new user ?
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
- Maarten
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 06:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi,


Thanks for pointing that out. There appears to be one currently running for
my regio (BeNeLux: Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg). The contest runs from
October 5 to December 31, but students can register and join through
December 31, 2015, so perhaps I can (still) register.

It seems to list (z/)TPF, which is interesting to me.


- Maarten.



On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Gonzalo Martin Barrio
Post by Gonzalo Martin Barrio ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Besides everything that was already suggested (ie. hands-on with Hercules
and older-but-legally-and-freely-available-OSes; redbooks), I recently
discovered and registered for IBM's Master The Mainframe.
It's a contest for students (not sure if they check if you actually are
one), where you get to learn about Mainframes with hands-on
exercises/challenges.
I'm doing it at the moment and it's pretty interesting, though I hardly
believe it'll make you master the Mainframe, but at least you get some
experience and knowledge to start with.
Of course, it's under z/OS 2.1, so if you later want to apply some of what
you learned in MVS 3.8j or similar, it may be different.
Here's the link; although it already started I think they still accept
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/academic/masterthemainframe/
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/skills_coursematerials.html
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/z/education/
Hope this helps.
Enjoy! :)
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM
Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about
and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that
roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and
operating system(s).
Ive looked at the various web pages that contain information about
Hercules, and I have to admit that im slightly overwhelmed with the amount
of information, and I have a hard time finding the best place to start. Can
anyone recommend any web pages/papers/tutorials/etc that would be a good
place to start learning about the IBM Mainframe and Hercules, from the
ground up, for a completely new user ?
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
- Maarten
Mick Graley mick.graley@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 11:23:08 UTC
Permalink
Hi Maarten,

I’ve found this topic and it’s replies very interesting, as I personally
think that IBM are missing a trick that the other platforms have nailed.
It’s not simple for a newbie to get in to mainframe stuff, which is a real
pity because it is so different to the other platforms.

I’ve been a mainframer on MVS/XA, OS/390 and z/OS for 26 years and I’ve
found some of the links interesting myself, especially the YouTube ones.

The IBM documentation is very good but it is also very BIG. You’ve already
noticed that the intro alone is 700+ pages – way OTT for an introduction!

Anyway, I’m gonna throw a few of my own opinions in, sorry Maarten, you’ve
already been bombarded with so much info!

First, I can’t believe no-one has suggested
http://www.snee.com/bob/opsys.html specifically
http://www.snee.com/bob/opsys/part6mvs.pdf

I agree with Paul (Kerr Avon) that it’s more fun to dive in and for that
registering with the FanDeZhi system (
http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser) is a great way to play
with a much more current version of MVS. I have an account on that system
myself (gres) that I occasionally play with at home. If you register and
need any help with JCL etc then I can XMIT you code examples. It’s been a
while since I played with it, and I can’t access it at work (where I am
now) but I believe it has all the standard compilers, TSO, ISPF, RACF,
CICS, DB2 and maybe even IMS. The rules are quite strict though so nosing
around might get you revoked!

If you have to interact with z/OS systems from UNIX at work can you get
access to the development or systems programming systems at work? SysProgs
(your mainframe equivalents) tend to be helpful people as they like to show
you what they now.

I am a big fan of the SPFLite PC editor (mentioned by a few people), as I
use the mainframe equivalent most of the day at work. It can be used to
submit jobs to the Hercules card reader, which is similar to submitting a
job to the “internal reader” on z/OS from TSO/ISPF. I can send you a copy
of my “theme” that makes it look very much like the ISPF/PDF editor on a
3270 terminal.

Anyway, have fun!

Mick.
Post by ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hi,
I am a complete newbee to both the Hercules emulator, and the IBM
Mainframe. I would like to run Hercules on my PC, in order to learn about
and teach myself how the IBM Mainframe operates. Preferably in a way that
roughly translates to the latest versions of the IBM architecture and
operating system(s).
Ive looked at the various web pages that contain information about
Hercules, and I have to admit that im slightly overwhelmed with the amount
of information, and I have a hard time finding the best place to start. Can
anyone recommend any web pages/papers/tutorials/etc that would be a good
place to start learning about the IBM Mainframe and Hercules, from the
ground up, for a completely new user ?
Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
- Maarten
--
Cheers,

Mick.
Maarten Hoes hoes.maarten@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 11:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
specifically http://www.snee.com/bob/opsys/part6mvs.pdf
This seems like a decent end user intro, Ill look into that, thanks !
it’s more fun to dive in and for that registering with the FanDeZhi
system
(http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser)
is a great way to play with a much more current version of MVS.
<snip>
I believe it has all the standard compilers, TSO, ISPF, RACF, CICS, DB2
and maybe even IMS.
Thanks for pointing that out. Guess ill start with the Hercules turnkey 4-
system, and then go from there.
If you have to interact with z/OS systems from UNIX at work can you get
access
to the development or systems programming systems at work? SysProgs (your
mainframe equivalents)
tend to be helpful people as they like to show you what they now.
Well perhaps I should have been more honest, and say 'former job'; its what
I used to do, so at the moment I dont have access to any development or
test systems, or the people administering them. Luckily for me though, I
found this list with a boatload of specialists! ;)
Anyway, have fun!
Thanks.
:)



- Maarten.
Robert Prins robert.ah.prins@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I agree with Paul (Kerr Avon) that it’s more fun to dive in and for that
registering with the FanDeZhi system
(http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser) is a great way to play with
a much more current version of MVS. I have an account on that system myself
(gres) that I occasionally play with at home. If you register and need any help
with JCL etc then I can XMIT you code examples. It’s been a while since I played
with it, and I can’t access it at work (where I am now) but I believe it has all
the standard compilers, TSO, ISPF, RACF, CICS, DB2 and maybe even IMS. The rules
are quite strict though so nosing around might get you revoked!
FanDeZhi has all the standard z/OS compilers that came with z/OS 1.6 and a few
newer ones that were put onto the system by individuals, mostly employees from
Indian outsource companies, who want to use them away from work. We usually move
them to the "system" packs, and update the standard compile procedures to use them.

Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years, and being a non-IMS user, I don't
know the state of that system. CICS is running (most of the time), but given
that every idiot can use CEDA, it's more often than not dysfunctional - if
anyone here knows how to slap RACF protection on individual CICS transactions,
please, please, please come forward!!!
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a big fan of the SPFLite PC editor (mentioned by a few people), as I use
the mainframe equivalent most of the day at work. It can be used to submit jobs
to the Hercules card reader, which is similar to submitting a job to the
“internal reader” on z/OS from TSO/ISPF. I can send you a copy of my “theme”
that makes it look very much like the ISPF/PDF editor on a 3270 terminal.
Why not post it to the files section of the group, or on a shared Google
drive/dropbox/etc.

I've tried SPFLite more than once, but until such a time that they start using
REXX as the macro language and make it possible to use z/OS edit macros on it,
no... Grew up with the ISPF editor and at home I'm using a 32-bit version of the
Ravits Editor, having used his (IBM Internal Use Only) DOS predecessor "led" for
many, many years. Only problem is an occasional GPF, but by saving often I
manage to live with that.

I have z/OS running in the background much of the time, and using the WSA you
can seamlessly edit PC files in ISPF.

Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
Mick Graley mick.graley@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi Robert/et al,

As suggested I've uploaded my theme file to the files sections as "SPFLite
3270 Theme.STF".
For new users of SPFLite, to use this theme copy the file to your
SPFLite\THEMES directory then enter SPFLite primary command THEME CREATE to
save your current settings in case you hate mine and want to revert, then
enter THEME LOAD and select my theme file.

I just so happen to be a DB2 SysAdm. Do you know what's broken with DB2 on
FanDeZhi? If not allow me to snoop and I'll try to fix it. If the worst
comes to the worst and the base SMP/E libraries are there I can re-install
it for you. This is probably getting off-topic so feel free to contact me
off-list. I also know some CICS/RACF guys who can probably tell me how to
restrict CEDA for you.

Cheers,

Mick.
Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I agree with Paul (Kerr Avon) that it’s more fun to dive in and for that
registering with the FanDeZhi system
(http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser) is a great way to
play with
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
a much more current version of MVS. I have an account on that system
myself
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
(gres) that I occasionally play with at home. If you register and need
any help
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
with JCL etc then I can XMIT you code examples. It’s been a while since
I played
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
with it, and I can’t access it at work (where I am now) but I believe it
has all
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the standard compilers, TSO, ISPF, RACF, CICS, DB2 and maybe even IMS.
The rules
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
are quite strict though so nosing around might get you revoked!
FanDeZhi has all the standard z/OS compilers that came with z/OS 1.6 and a few
newer ones that were put onto the system by individuals, mostly employees from
Indian outsource companies, who want to use them away from work. We usually move
them to the "system" packs, and update the standard compile procedures to use them.
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years, and being a non-IMS user, I don't
know the state of that system. CICS is running (most of the time), but given
that every idiot can use CEDA, it's more often than not dysfunctional - if
anyone here knows how to slap RACF protection on individual CICS transactions,
please, please, please come forward!!!
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a big fan of the SPFLite PC editor (mentioned by a few people), as
I use
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the mainframe equivalent most of the day at work. It can be used to
submit jobs
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
to the Hercules card reader, which is similar to submitting a job to the
“internal reader” on z/OS from TSO/ISPF. I can send you a copy of my
“theme”
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
that makes it look very much like the ISPF/PDF editor on a 3270 terminal.
Why not post it to the files section of the group, or on a shared Google
drive/dropbox/etc.
I've tried SPFLite more than once, but until such a time that they start using
REXX as the macro language and make it possible to use z/OS edit macros on it,
no... Grew up with the ISPF editor and at home I'm using a 32-bit version of the
Ravits Editor, having used his (IBM Internal Use Only) DOS predecessor "led" for
many, many years. Only problem is an occasional GPF, but by saving often I
manage to live with that.
I have z/OS running in the background much of the time, and using the WSA you
can seamlessly edit PC files in ISPF.
Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
--
Cheers,

Mick.
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:31:29 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
DB2 isn't dead. Not yet. Its still being developed and upgraded. In
fact there are more sites using it then the Oracle on Mainframe thing
that was popular about the time I joined this list.

-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Robert Prins
Post by Robert Prins ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I agree with Paul (Kerr Avon) that it’s more fun to dive in and for that
registering with the FanDeZhi system
(http://www.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser) is a great way to play with
a much more current version of MVS. I have an account on that system myself
(gres) that I occasionally play with at home. If you register and need any help
with JCL etc then I can XMIT you code examples. It’s been a while since I played
with it, and I can’t access it at work (where I am now) but I believe it has all
the standard compilers, TSO, ISPF, RACF, CICS, DB2 and maybe even IMS. The rules
are quite strict though so nosing around might get you revoked!
FanDeZhi has all the standard z/OS compilers that came with z/OS 1.6 and a few
newer ones that were put onto the system by individuals, mostly employees from
Indian outsource companies, who want to use them away from work. We usually move
them to the "system" packs, and update the standard compile procedures to use them.
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years, and being a non-IMS user, I don't
know the state of that system. CICS is running (most of the time), but given
that every idiot can use CEDA, it's more often than not dysfunctional - if
anyone here knows how to slap RACF protection on individual CICS transactions,
please, please, please come forward!!!
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I am a big fan of the SPFLite PC editor (mentioned by a few people), as I use
the mainframe equivalent most of the day at work. It can be used to submit jobs
to the Hercules card reader, which is similar to submitting a job to the
“internal reader” on z/OS from TSO/ISPF. I can send you a copy of my “theme”
that makes it look very much like the ISPF/PDF editor on a 3270 terminal.
Why not post it to the files section of the group, or on a shared Google
drive/dropbox/etc.
I've tried SPFLite more than once, but until such a time that they start using
REXX as the macro language and make it possible to use z/OS edit macros on it,
no... Grew up with the ISPF editor and at home I'm using a 32-bit version of the
Ravits Editor, having used his (IBM Internal Use Only) DOS predecessor "led" for
many, many years. Only problem is an occasional GPF, but by saving often I
manage to live with that.
I have z/OS running in the background much of the time, and using the WSA you
can seamlessly edit PC files in ISPF.
Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:33:41 UTC
Permalink
if anyone here knows how to slap RACF protection on individual CICS
transactions, please, please, please come forward!!!
Is something like the first example at:

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSGMCP_5.3.0/com.ibm.cics.ts.racfsecurity.doc/topics/dfht523.html

what you're looking for?
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Prins ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years,
Ha! I don't know where you live, but it's all over the place in this
town. (lots of medical/insurance/banking industry, Pittsburgh) There's
always DB2 work available here.

-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Mick Graley mick.graley@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:44:08 UTC
Permalink
I think Robert meant that the DB2 sub-system on the FanDeZhi system is dead.
DB2 is not dead thankfully as I'm a DB2 SysAdm!
In fact I think the V12 early support program has just been launched.
Cheers,
Mick.
Post by Robert Prins ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years,
Ha! I don't know where you live, but it's all over the place in this
town. (lots of medical/insurance/banking industry, Pittsburgh) There's
always DB2 work available here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cheers,

Mick.
Dave McGuire Mcguire@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Ohhhhh ok. Not enough caffeine yet this morning. :)

-Dave
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I think Robert meant that the DB2 sub-system on the FanDeZhi system is dead.
DB2 is not dead thankfully as I'm a DB2 SysAdm!
In fact I think the V12 early support program has just been launched.
Cheers,
Mick.
__
Post by Robert Prins ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years,
Ha! I don't know where you live, but it's all over the place in this
town. (lots of medical/insurance/banking industry, Pittsburgh) There's
always DB2 work available here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cheers,
Mick.
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 13:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
As for the fact that its not working on that thing....... Something in
Dave's place did it.

And you're right group, that's what I'm getting at, it is still
working outside of that example.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Dave McGuire ***@neurotica.com [hercules-390]
Ohhhhh ok. Not enough caffeine yet this morning. :)
-Dave
Post by Mick Graley ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I think Robert meant that the DB2 sub-system on the FanDeZhi system is dead.
DB2 is not dead thankfully as I'm a DB2 SysAdm!
In fact I think the V12 early support program has just been launched.
Cheers,
Mick.
__
Post by Robert Prins ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Sadly DB2 is dead, and has been so for years,
Ha! I don't know where you live, but it's all over the place in this
town. (lots of medical/insurance/banking industry, Pittsburgh) There's
always DB2 work available here.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cheers,
Mick.
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Carey Tyler Schug sqrfolkdnc@comcast.net [hercules-390]
2015-10-23 13:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Is KVM something that can, or might be in the future, be doable on
Hercules? Or does it rely on proprietary functionality that Hercules
can never provide? Like SIE? "in the future" would mean when Suse or
Red hat supply it because IBM will only allow their distro on real iron.

--Carey
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-23 13:43:38 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 23 October 2015 14:25
Subject: [hercules-390] Please pardon newbie like question on kVM
Is KVM something that can, or might be in the future, be doable on Hercules?
Should be do-able but see below
Or does it rely on proprietary functionality that Hercules can never provide?
Like SIE?
SIE is basically proprietary, but there are some documents on it. zVM requires SIE so there is a basic implementation...
"in the future" would mean when Suse or Red hat supply it because
IBM will only allow their distro on real iron.
I would think so
--Carey
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-23 14:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave Wade' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 23 October 2015 14:25
Subject: [hercules-390] Please pardon newbie like question on kVM
Is KVM something that can, or might be in the future, be doable on Hercules?
Should be do-able but see below
Or does it rely on proprietary functionality that Hercules can never provide?
Like SIE?
SIE is basically proprietary, but there are some documents on it. zVM requires SIE so there is a basic implementation...
"in the future" would mean when Suse or Red hat supply it because
IBM will only allow their distro on real iron.
I would think so
--Carey
SIE is supported by Hercules. KVM on s390 architecture uses it for
dispatching a KVM.

There are really two questions. For what is the KVM licensed? And what
hardware capabilities are required to run KVM? While Hercules might not
be allowed in the first case, it might support the second or be made to
support the second.

Open source code can provide a road map for the use of undocumented
capabilities. By exposing hardware proprietary interfaces directly to
user land, the interfaces can be used by proprietary user land software
without exposing the details in the open source kernel or module code.
This can make it never supportable. A case in point is the use of Linux
to emulate a communications controller. There are messages that pass
from the OSA through the kernel and the qeth driver that only the
emulator in user land uses. Those messages are never likely to be
emulated by Hercules.

Whether this is the case or not with KVM on s390 architecture only
additional research would reveal.

Harold Grovesteen
e.sorichetti@alice.it [hercules-390]
2015-10-23 15:52:30 UTC
Permalink
frankly I do not see any relation between Hercules and KVM, quoting the KVM home page at
KVM http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page

http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page

KVM http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page KVM (for Kernel-based Virtual Machine) is a full virtualization solution for Linux on x86 hardware containing virtualization extensions (Intel VT or AMD-V).



View on www.linux-kvm.org http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page
Preview by Yahoo





KVM (for Kernel-based Virtual Machine) is a full virtualization solution for Linux on x86 hardware containing virtualization extensions (Intel VT or AMD-V). It consists of a loadable kernel module, kvm.ko, that provides the core virtualization infrastructure and a processor specific module, kvm-intel.ko or kvm-amd.ko.
Using KVM, one can run multiple virtual machines running unmodified Linux or Windows images. Each virtual machine has private virtualized hardware: a network card, disk, graphics adapter, etc.
KVM is open source software. The kernel component of KVM is included in mainline Linux, as of 2.6.20. The userspace component of KVM is included in mainline QEMU, as of 1.3.
quatras.design@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 17:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Robert,


You stated, "I've tried SPFLite more than once, but until such a time that they start using
REXX as the macro language and make it possible to use z/OS edit macros on it,
no... ."


George Deluca and I talked about adding REXX numerous times over the years, but it didn't happen for a number of reasons.


1. The ooRexx API is quite difficult to integrate into another application.


2. SPFLite does not implement a Dialog Manager. People that want to port an MVS ISPF Rexx script will often have calls to the DM. Since we don't have one, you would not be able to use your Rexx script anyway, even if we did support Rexx.


3. When your need a script that only interfaces with the edit session itself, the Basic-based macros we support now are quite powerful, and compare favorably to Rexx in terms of conciseness and power.


4. Outside of you and a tiny handful of users, almost no one has asked us to add Rexx support. Because the great amount of work involved, and only having two people working on development (and I only do it part time) we couldn't justify adding it when no one seems to care one way or the other. We have an online forum (SPFLite.freeforums.net) where people can discuss their interests about SPFLite. The subject of Rexx is virtually never brought up. It would be one thing if we had hundreds (we'd even take dozens) of requests for it, but there's literally so few you could count them on one hand.


I was a former Rexx user myself, and I have to say that our current macros are very comparable in capabilities, performance and ease of use as Rexx is. In case you were interested, there is a Help facility (HELP MACROS is the command) that has a section on porting Rexx to SPFLite. As much as I like Rexx, I personally don't miss not having it. Everything I have needed to do I can do with our existing facilities.
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-12 18:08:17 UTC
Permalink
If you want an Editor that can be programmed in REXX then try The Hessling Editor (THE)

http://hessling-editor.sourceforge.net/

It has an SPF compatibility mode and can be programmed using various incarnations of REXX.

Dave
G4UGM


From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 12 October 2015 18:34
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe





Robert,

You stated, "I've tried SPFLite more than once, but until such a time that they start using
REXX as the macro language and make it possible to use z/OS edit macros on it,
no... ."

George Deluca and I talked about adding REXX numerous times over the years, but it didn't happen for a number of reasons.

1. The ooRexx API is quite difficult to integrate into another application.

2. SPFLite does not implement a Dialog Manager. People that want to port an MVS ISPF Rexx script will often have calls to the DM. Since we don't have one, you would not be able to use your Rexx script anyway, even if we did support Rexx.

3. When your need a script that only interfaces with the edit session itself, the Basic-based macros we support now are quite powerful, and compare favorably to Rexx in terms of conciseness and power.

4. Outside of you and a tiny handful of users, almost no one has asked us to add Rexx support. Because the great amount of work involved, and only having two people working on development (and I only do it part time) we couldn't justify adding it when no one seems to care one way or the other. We have an online forum (SPFLite.freeforums.net) where people can discuss their interests about SPFLite. The subject of Rexx is virtually never brought up. It would be one thing if we had hundreds (we'd even take dozens) of requests for it, but there's literally so few you could count them on one hand.

I was a former Rexx user myself, and I have to say that our current macros are very comparable in capabilities, performance and ease of use as Rexx is. In case you were interested, there is a Help facility (HELP MACROS is the command) that has a section on porting Rexx to SPFLite. As much as I like Rexx, I personally don't miss not having it. Everything I have needed to do I can do with our existing facilities.
' Richard Pinion' rpinion@netscape.com [hercules-390]
2015-10-14 12:40:06 UTC
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">VM predates LPAR by many, many years. &nbsp;When I say VM, I'm talking about the non Z versions.</FONT><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2">My history may be wrong, but I think VM was around in the late 1960's. &nbsp;If you subscribe to</FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2">IBM-MAIN and search the archives, look for posts from&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size: 12px;white-space: nowrap;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Anne &amp; Lynn Wheeler &lt;***@GARLIC.COM&gt;.</SPAN></DIV><DIV><FONT><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN style="font-size: 12px;white-space: nowrap;">This person appears to have been involved in the early development of VM. &nbsp;Many of the posts from</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><SPAN style="font-size: 12px;white-space: nowrap;">this person discuss those early days of VM development.<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">--- hercules-***@yahoogroups.com wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">From: "Maarten Hoes ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]" &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:27:53 &#43;0200</SPAN><BR><BR> <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN> <DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;"> <DIV> <DIV> <P></P><DIV dir="ltr">Hi,<BR><BR><DIV><BR>On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 6:32 AM, Jack Woehr <A href="mailto:***@softwoehr.com">***@softwoehr.com</A> [hercules-390] &lt;<A href="mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com">hercules-***@yahoogroups.com</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Maarten Hoes <A href="mailto:***@gmail.com">***@gmail.com</A> [hercules-390] wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Based on your response, am I right to assume that VM was the old way of running virtual machines with operating<BR>&gt; &gt; systems running in/under them, in the same way that LPAR is used ?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; LPAR is essentially VM served from a tin :)<BR>&gt;<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>Alright. So to sum it up: <BR><BR>Both LPARs and (z/)VM are Mainframe virtualization solutions.<BR>LPARs were here first<BR>(z/)VM came later, but is more versatile / powerful<BR>LPARs 'come with the hardware', (z/)VM is a separately bought and licensed product <BR></DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Some folks get by with the more basic functionality of LPARs, and some shops require the more advanced functions of (z/)VM<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>Correct ?<BR><BR><BR></DIV><DIV>- Maarten.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><DIV>PS: Some folks might argue that we are slowly drifting off topic here, but the subject *was* 'Completely New User: Learning The Mainframe', so I guess all of these messages are still relevant ;)<BR> </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
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