Discussion:
3215 Console Telnet from Putty rejected
(too old to reply)
Jay Jaeger cube1@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-03 22:33:30 UTC
Permalink
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules (as well as
a P390, without success on the latter). For a console, it has a 3215 at
001F.

I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet client (though
carriage returns don't seem to work right) and from Linux. However, if
I try it from Putty, Hercules disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal
type negotiation.

I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.

Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?

Thanks.

Jay Jaeger
Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-03 22:48:29 UTC
Permalink
For APL\360, some terminal handling changes were made. Try 3.12.
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules (as well as
a P390, without success on the latter). For a console, it has a 3215 at
001F.
I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet client (though
carriage returns don't seem to work right) and from Linux. However, if
I try it from Putty, Hercules disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal
type negotiation.
I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.
Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?
Thanks.
Jay Jaeger
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 00:02:53 UTC
Permalink
There was a thread awhile ago, I can't find it.

It was saying something inside Hercules recently broke putty.

Here is the fixed putty someone posted (Jurgen ?)

http://mstram.alwaysdata.net/puttyh.exe

I tried to upload it to the files section, but my dialup (ya ya)
connection, doesn't work with all the java / javascript junk.

Mike
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
For APL\360, some terminal handling changes were made. Try 3.12.
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules (as well as
a P390, without success on the latter). For a console, it has a 3215 at
001F.
I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet client (though
carriage returns don't seem to work right) and from Linux. However, if
I try it from Putty, Hercules disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal
type negotiation.
I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.
Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?
Thanks.
Jay Jaeger
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 00:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules (as well as
a P390, without success on the latter). For a console, it has a 3215 at
001F.
I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet client (though
carriage returns don't seem to work right) and from Linux. However, if
I try it from Putty, Hercules disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal
type negotiation.
I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.
Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?
Thanks.
Jay Jaeger
Yes, line-mode telnet is just a bug.
It also has issues with MVS.

A Hercues integrated console works better and also combined
Hercules messages with MVS messages.

Define the in you Hercules configuration file as:
001F 3215-C /

Prefix MVS commands with the command code.
In the example, it is a slash.

/r 00,clpa
/d t
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 01:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
I've got the same problem. I've installed 3.12 of Hercules, and Fish's
GUI, I also remembered to set things in the registry. Problem is that
a recently released fix for Putty to enable it to work with Hercules,
seemingly does not work. It beeps rudely and closes. This is with the
whole blob set to behave as if it were a system about to run VM/370
Release 6.

This is using the same fix that you brought to my attention Mike Stramba.

Obviously there's a lot we need to learn when it comes to Putty and
even Hercules.

What's needed to build the binaries myself using VS2010? I seem to
recall a big collection of items released about then but it was for an
earlier release.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules (as well as
a P390, without success on the latter). For a console, it has a 3215 at
001F.
I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet client (though
carriage returns don't seem to work right) and from Linux. However, if
I try it from Putty, Hercules disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal
type negotiation.
I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.
Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?
Thanks.
Jay Jaeger
Yes, line-mode telnet is just a bug.
It also has issues with MVS.
A Hercues integrated console works better and also combined
Hercules messages with MVS messages.
001F 3215-C /
Prefix MVS commands with the command code.
In the example, it is a slash.
/r 00,clpa
/d t
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 04:50:50 UTC
Permalink
The git cloning is apparently not neccesary, the "download zip"
button will grab the sources.

But if you're gonna be building, might as well have the git client installed.

Mike
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I've got the same problem. I've installed 3.12 of Hercules, and Fish's
GUI, I also remembered to set things in the registry. Problem is that
a recently released fix for Putty to enable it to work with Hercules,
seemingly does not work. It beeps rudely and closes. This is with the
whole blob set to behave as if it were a system about to run VM/370
Release 6.
Greg,
Set "what things" in the registry ?
I'm not running the Fish Gui. the standard Hercules console is "gui
enough" for me (except for a couple of "wish items")
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What's needed to build the binaries myself using VS2010? I seem to
recall a big collection of items released about then but it was for an
earlier release.
If you build it he will com... .... er "it will run" ? ;)
----------------------------------
Make an account on github.
Install the GIT client software on your box
Browse to https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk
(optional) Press the FORK button.
Find the "fork url" (either from Roger's page or your forked page)
Make a directory (folder) somewhere on your box
git clone https://github.com/<hercules.src. url>
1) run vsvars32.bat (sets paths, env vars)
2) Get the zlib, BZIP, PCRE libraries.
------ set-zlib.bat -----
SET ZLIB_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\ZLIB1
SET BZIP2_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\BZIP2
SET PCRE_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\PCRE
----------------
4)
copy makefile.msvc makefile
nmake clean
nmake
binaries are in : msvc.dllmod.bin
----------------------------------------
What version of Windoze are you running ?
Maybe buy yourself a cheap box like I have (Dell Optiplex 745), just
for running Hercules on Win XP ;)
Mike
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 05:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Sorry, the registry reference concerned the older release of the GUI
that looked for a nonexistent name. According to stuff I found on line
it comes from an older idea. It gets fixed in the newer release that
our friend named for a Schubert work released fairly recently.

And as for building it.... I'l not at all sure if I want to do that.

This is Windows 7 on a Dell Inspiron 1545. I've also managed to run
Slackware64 14.,1 on the unit, but, ah, there are other issues. As for
a cheap box, I've got here a (semi) retired Dell Dimension XPS T600R
system.

But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and tn3270 service
that Hercules runs and will work with the clumsy telnet client that
Windows has, but won't work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and
not fixed varieties.

I believe I've gotten Putty to work with the example running on Linux,
Slackware 11.0 on that box.... Will try it.

But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding Putty, and
possibly Hercules?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I've got the same problem. I've installed 3.12 of Hercules, and Fish's
GUI, I also remembered to set things in the registry. Problem is that
a recently released fix for Putty to enable it to work with Hercules,
seemingly does not work. It beeps rudely and closes. This is with the
whole blob set to behave as if it were a system about to run VM/370
Release 6.
Greg,
Set "what things" in the registry ?
I'm not running the Fish Gui. the standard Hercules console is "gui
enough" for me (except for a couple of "wish items")
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What's needed to build the binaries myself using VS2010? I seem to
recall a big collection of items released about then but it was for an
earlier release.
If you build it he will com... .... er "it will run" ? ;)
----------------------------------
Make an account on github.
Install the GIT client software on your box
Browse to https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk
(optional) Press the FORK button.
Find the "fork url" (either from Roger's page or your forked page)
Make a directory (folder) somewhere on your box
git clone https://github.com/<hercules.src. url>
1) run vsvars32.bat (sets paths, env vars)
2) Get the zlib, BZIP, PCRE libraries.
------ set-zlib.bat -----
SET ZLIB_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\ZLIB1
SET BZIP2_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\BZIP2
SET PCRE_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\PCRE
----------------
4)
copy makefile.msvc makefile
nmake clean
nmake
binaries are in : msvc.dllmod.bin
----------------------------------------
What version of Windoze are you running ?
Maybe buy yourself a cheap box like I have (Dell Optiplex 745), just
for running Hercules on Win XP ;)
Mike
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 05:31:41 UTC
Permalink
http://hercules390.996247.n3.nabble.com/New-setup-problem-3270-yes-telnet-no-td48783.html

"Hi Alan

your problem most probably is a long running telnet negotiation
incompatibility between Hercules (all versions) and PuTTY (all
versions). See my post from some two years ago here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/71741
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/71741


Back then, my conclusion was that the risk of breaking working
configurations upon changing negotiation in console.c et al (i.e.
comm3705 and commadpt too) to enable PuTTY to connect was too high.
So, instead I created a very minimal patch to the back then current
version of PuTTY. It can be found in my MVT for APL distribution at


http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00 http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00


Just replace your putty.exe with the one found in folder
PuTTY-0.62_for_Hercules\windows of the current mvt4apl 2.00
distribution zip for a quick try.


If you want to integrate the patch into a more current PuTTY version,
start from the source at PuTTY-0.62_for_Hercules\source. There you
find the original patch as created for PuTTY 0.62 plus an updated one
for 0.63. It should be easily adaptable to any version being currently
around.


Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Sorry, the registry reference concerned the older release of the GUI
that looked for a nonexistent name. According to stuff I found on line
it comes from an older idea. It gets fixed in the newer release that
our friend named for a Schubert work released fairly recently.
And as for building it.... I'l not at all sure if I want to do that.
This is Windows 7 on a Dell Inspiron 1545. I've also managed to run
Slackware64 14.,1 on the unit, but, ah, there are other issues. As for
a cheap box, I've got here a (semi) retired Dell Dimension XPS T600R
system.
But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and tn3270 service
that Hercules runs and will work with the clumsy telnet client that
Windows has, but won't work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and
not fixed varieties.
I believe I've gotten Putty to work with the example running on Linux,
Slackware 11.0 on that box.... Will try it.
But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding Putty, and
possibly Hercules?
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I've got the same problem. I've installed 3.12 of Hercules, and Fish's
GUI, I also remembered to set things in the registry. Problem is that
a recently released fix for Putty to enable it to work with Hercules,
seemingly does not work. It beeps rudely and closes. This is with the
whole blob set to behave as if it were a system about to run VM/370
Release 6.
Greg,
Set "what things" in the registry ?
I'm not running the Fish Gui. the standard Hercules console is "gui
enough" for me (except for a couple of "wish items")
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What's needed to build the binaries myself using VS2010? I seem to
recall a big collection of items released about then but it was for an
earlier release.
If you build it he will com... .... er "it will run" ? ;)
----------------------------------
Make an account on github.
Install the GIT client software on your box
Browse to https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk
(optional) Press the FORK button.
Find the "fork url" (either from Roger's page or your forked page)
Make a directory (folder) somewhere on your box
git clone https://github.com/<hercules.src. url>
1) run vsvars32.bat (sets paths, env vars)
2) Get the zlib, BZIP, PCRE libraries.
------ set-zlib.bat -----
SET ZLIB_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\ZLIB1
SET BZIP2_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\BZIP2
SET PCRE_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\PCRE
----------------
4)
copy makefile.msvc makefile
nmake clean
nmake
binaries are in : msvc.dllmod.bin
----------------------------------------
What version of Windoze are you running ?
Maybe buy yourself a cheap box like I have (Dell Optiplex 745), just
for running Hercules on Win XP ;)
Mike
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 05:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
http://hercules390.996247.n3.nabble.com/New-setup-problem-3270-yes-telnet-no-td48783.html
"Hi Alan
your problem most probably is a long running telnet negotiation
incompatibility between Hercules (all versions) and PuTTY (all
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/71741
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/71741
Back then, my conclusion was that the risk of breaking working
configurations upon changing negotiation in console.c et al (i.e.
comm3705 and commadpt too) to enable PuTTY to connect was too high.
So, instead I created a very minimal patch to the back then current
version of PuTTY. It can be found in my MVT for APL distribution at
http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00 http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00
Just replace your putty.exe with the one found in folder
PuTTY-0.62_for_Hercules\windows of the current mvt4apl 2.00
distribution zip for a quick try.
If you want to integrate the patch into a more current PuTTY version,
start from the source at PuTTY-0.62_for_Hercules\source. There you
find the original patch as created for PuTTY 0.62 plus an updated one
for 0.63. It should be easily adaptable to any version being currently
around.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Sorry, the registry reference concerned the older release of the GUI
that looked for a nonexistent name. According to stuff I found on line
it comes from an older idea. It gets fixed in the newer release that
our friend named for a Schubert work released fairly recently.
And as for building it.... I'l not at all sure if I want to do that.
This is Windows 7 on a Dell Inspiron 1545. I've also managed to run
Slackware64 14.,1 on the unit, but, ah, there are other issues. As for
a cheap box, I've got here a (semi) retired Dell Dimension XPS T600R
system.
But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and tn3270 service
that Hercules runs and will work with the clumsy telnet client that
Windows has, but won't work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and
not fixed varieties.
I believe I've gotten Putty to work with the example running on Linux,
Slackware 11.0 on that box.... Will try it.
But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding Putty, and
possibly Hercules?
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
I've got the same problem. I've installed 3.12 of Hercules, and Fish's
GUI, I also remembered to set things in the registry. Problem is that
a recently released fix for Putty to enable it to work with Hercules,
seemingly does not work. It beeps rudely and closes. This is with the
whole blob set to behave as if it were a system about to run VM/370
Release 6.
Greg,
Set "what things" in the registry ?
I'm not running the Fish Gui. the standard Hercules console is "gui
enough" for me (except for a couple of "wish items")
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
What's needed to build the binaries myself using VS2010? I seem to
recall a big collection of items released about then but it was for an
earlier release.
If you build it he will com... .... er "it will run" ? ;)
----------------------------------
Make an account on github.
Install the GIT client software on your box
Browse to https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk
(optional) Press the FORK button.
Find the "fork url" (either from Roger's page or your forked page)
Make a directory (folder) somewhere on your box
git clone https://github.com/<hercules.src. url>
1) run vsvars32.bat (sets paths, env vars)
2) Get the zlib, BZIP, PCRE libraries.
------ set-zlib.bat -----
SET ZLIB_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\ZLIB1
SET BZIP2_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\BZIP2
SET PCRE_DIR=D:\Hercules\src\hercdev\PCRE
----------------
4)
copy makefile.msvc makefile
nmake clean
nmake
binaries are in : msvc.dllmod.bin
----------------------------------------
What version of Windoze are you running ?
Maybe buy yourself a cheap box like I have (Dell Optiplex 745), just
for running Hercules on Win XP ;)
Mike
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 08:57:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gregg


thanks for mentioning the new version.


Last year many ssl based services closed security weaknesses, which in turn forced client developers to adapt their products. So, for example, PuTTY 0.63 is no longer able to connect to current OS X incarnations using ssh, while PuTTY 0.66 works flawlessly in the same constellation.


One could say "who cares, we are talking telnet here, not ssh". But typically one get's used to a certain terminal emulation and doesn't want to have to remember using a different version for telnet into Hercules and for doing "modern" stuff like ssh.



So, I adapted the patch I created for PuTTY 0.62/0.63 to work with PuTTY 0.66. It can be downloaded at


https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf


The zip file contains copies of the source and the patch (for those wanting to do their own builds) as well as patched binaries for Windows, Linux and OS X. See the README for information.


Cheers
JÃŒrgen

---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@... mailto:***@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again.
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 15:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Okay I found the version you released to work, however, when trying
connect to a running Hercules instance, I get "NETWORK ERROR" on the
Putty side, and it claims further that reset of something disconnected
it. I tried both with the Fish GUI, and with commandline mode. I also
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.

Any suggestions?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi Gregg
thanks for mentioning the new version.
Last year many ssl based services closed security weaknesses, which in turn
forced client developers to adapt their products. So, for example, PuTTY
0.63 is no longer able to connect to current OS X incarnations using ssh,
while PuTTY 0.66 works flawlessly in the same constellation.
One could say "who cares, we are talking telnet here, not ssh". But
typically one get's used to a certain terminal emulation and doesn't want to
have to remember using a different version for telnet into Hercules and for
doing "modern" stuff like ssh.
So, I adapted the patch I created for PuTTY 0.62/0.63 to work with PuTTY
0.66. It can be downloaded at
https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf
The zip file contains copies of the source and the patch (for those wanting
to do their own builds) as well as patched binaries for Windows, Linux and
OS X. See the README for information.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again.
________________________________
________________________________
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 15:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
That also reminds me, what setting did your patch fix? Given that I
also run Hercules on Linux, I'll make use of your source code and
promptly rebuild the Putty example for Slackware Linux with your fix
enabled.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Okay I found the version you released to work, however, when trying
connect to a running Hercules instance, I get "NETWORK ERROR" on the
Putty side, and it claims further that reset of something disconnected
it. I tried both with the Fish GUI, and with commandline mode. I also
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.
Any suggestions?
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi Gregg
thanks for mentioning the new version.
Last year many ssl based services closed security weaknesses, which in turn
forced client developers to adapt their products. So, for example, PuTTY
0.63 is no longer able to connect to current OS X incarnations using ssh,
while PuTTY 0.66 works flawlessly in the same constellation.
One could say "who cares, we are talking telnet here, not ssh". But
typically one get's used to a certain terminal emulation and doesn't want to
have to remember using a different version for telnet into Hercules and for
doing "modern" stuff like ssh.
So, I adapted the patch I created for PuTTY 0.62/0.63 to work with PuTTY
0.66. It can be downloaded at
https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf
The zip file contains copies of the source and the patch (for those wanting
to do their own builds) as well as patched binaries for Windows, Linux and
OS X. See the README for information.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again.
________________________________
________________________________
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
That also reminds me, what setting did your patch fix? Given that I
also run Hercules on Linux, I'll make use of your source code and
promptly rebuild the Putty example for Slackware Linux with your fix
enabled.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
I am also curious about what was actually adjusted in Putty's operation.

Harold Grovesteen
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 17:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
I am also curious about what was actually adjusted
in Putty's operation.
See me reply to Gregg. It's all there!
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 19:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fish, Harold, Gregg


Yes, as Fish says (thanks!), it's all there.


The patch modifies one line of code in the telnet negotiation section and adds two lines of code to the line discipline module. So it's reasonably simple...


Needed to work with Hercules is only the one line change in the negotiation section. The line discipline change fixes an issue with remote echoing, which probably doesn't become visible ever... except with APL\360 .


There were some posts around the 2012/13 timeframe when someone (Dave Durgee?) analyzed the negotiation misbehavior, but I don't seem to be able to find them any more. Thanks to Yahoo's broken search function! What I remember from my head, I did to find out what to fix was tracing the negotiation dialog and then simply suppressing the offending message from PuTTY to Hercules, as the result wouldn't have mattered anyway.


Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
I am also curious about what was actually adjusted
in Putty's operation.
See me reply to Gregg. It's all there!

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@... mailto:***@...
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 19:55:54 UTC
Permalink
JÃŒrgen Winkelmann wrote:

[...]
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
There were some posts around the 2012/13 timeframe when
someone (Dave Durgee?) analyzed the negotiation misbehavior,
but I don't seem to be able to find them any more. Thanks
to Yahoo's broken search function!
That's why I don't use it. Instead, I simply search my local email. (I never delete any email I receive. It's all too valuable since almost all of it contains extremely useful/valuable technical information.)

I'm sure the post you are referring to is this one, made by Doug Wegscheid [***@sbcglobal.net]:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/67296
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
What I remember from my head, I did to find out what to fix
was tracing the negotiation dialog and then simply suppressing
the offending message from PuTTY to Hercules, as the result
wouldn't have mattered anyway.
Hercules's "negotiate()" function in console.c is poorly written and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the past several days (ever since this issue came up) I've been looking at Hercules as well as at a github project called "libtelnet" (https://github.com/seanmiddleditch/libtelnet), and 1) have managed to trace the Hercules <--> PuTTY telnet negotiation and have come to more or less the same results/conclusion as Doug did, and 2) have come up with some ideas as to how we might be able to either: a) make a few (simple? we'll see!) changes to Hercules to be more RFC compliant, -OR- b) integrate 'libtelnet' into Hercules.

This is probably something we should discuss on the zHercules developers group. It also merits creation of a GitHub Issue for it too (which I haven't done yet) as this issue has been with us since day one and still hasn't been properly resolved. (Instead, several workaround hacks/kludges have simply been made, which is not good.)

I also need to create a GitHub Issue for the Hercules system-shutdown/session-logoff issue too (SIGTERM on *Nix and WM_QUERYENDSESSION/WM_ENDSESSION on Windows).
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 20:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi Fish


exactly, that is the post! And, as soon as I enter "negoitiating" into the search field, even bloody Yahoo is able to find it .


Well, concerning e-mail: Even without Hercules related stuff I have a daily volume of e-mail I can't manage to read. For that reason all my Yahoo group memberships are set to "no mail". That way I can read the groups very selectively when I've time to do so.


Of course I nowadays do expect data to be maintained save and searchable from any forum or group application. Yahoo is simply broken (the groups as well as the company) and it's only a question of (short) time until they will cease to exist .


Cheers
JÃŒrgen


---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


JÃŒrgen Winkelmann wrote:

[...]
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
There were some posts around the 2012/13 timeframe when
someone (Dave Durgee?) analyzed the negotiation misbehavior,
but I don't seem to be able to find them any more. Thanks
to Yahoo's broken search function!
That's why I don't use it. Instead, I simply search my local email. (I never delete any email I receive. It's all too valuable since almost all of it contains extremely useful/valuable technical information.)

I'm sure the post you are referring to is this one, made by Doug Wegscheid [***@... mailto:***@...]:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/67296 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/67296
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
What I remember from my head, I did to find out what to fix
was tracing the negotiation dialog and then simply suppressing
the offending message from PuTTY to Hercules, as the result
wouldn't have mattered anyway.
Hercules's "negotiate()" function in console.c is poorly written and leaves a lot to be desired.

For the past several days (ever since this issue came up) I've been looking at Hercules as well as at a github project called "libtelnet" (https://github.com/seanmiddleditch/libtelnet) https://github.com/seanmiddleditch/libtelnet), and 1) have managed to trace the Hercules <--> PuTTY telnet negotiation and have come to more or less the same results/conclusion as Doug did, and 2) have come up with some ideas as to how we might be able to either: a) make a few (simple? we'll see!) changes to Hercules to be more RFC compliant, -OR- b) integrate 'libtelnet' into Hercules.

This is probably something we should discuss on the zHercules developers group. It also merits creation of a GitHub Issue for it too (which I haven't done yet) as this issue has been with us since day one and still hasn't been properly resolved. (Instead, several workaround hacks/kludges have simply been made, which is not good.)

I also need to create a GitHub Issue for the Hercules system-shutdown/session-logoff issue too (SIGTERM on *Nix and WM_QUERYENDSESSION/WM_ENDSESSION on Windows).

--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@... mailto:***@...
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 21:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Well, concerning e-mail: Even without Hercules related stuff I have a
daily volume of e-mail I can't manage to read. For that reason all my
Yahoo group memberships are set to "no mail". That way I can read the
groups very selectively when I've time to do so.
I receive more e-mail than I can possibly read too, but none of the lists
I'm on are set to "no mail." Even for lists I don't follow regularly I want
to have local archives. With all the lists I'm on I receive something like
1,100+ e-mails a day. My sieve filer sorts mail from different lists into
separate mailboxes for each list so it's easy to access the archives when
needed. I currently have about 23GB of mail archives.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 22:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Kevin Monceaux wrote:

[...]
Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
I receive more e-mail than I can possibly read too, but none
of the lists I'm on are set to "no mail." Even for lists I
don't follow regularly I want to have local archives.
Yep. Same here.
Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
With all the lists I'm on I receive something like 1,100+ e-mails
a day.
That's very close to the amount I receive each day too.
Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
My sieve filer sorts mail from different lists into separate
mailboxes for each list so it's easy to access the archives
when needed.
I use POPFile (http://getpopfile.org/), a local client bayesian spam filterer/classifier, for the same thing.
Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
I currently have about 23GB of mail archives.
Holy crap! I've only got about 5.8GB!

And that's going back almost 20 years!(*)

23GB?! Wow. Just... wow!

Impressive...
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com


(*) I started in 1997, but shortly thereafter experienced a hard drive crash that caused me to lose a lot of my email. Nevertheless, I still do have at least *some* email from 1997.
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 23:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Holy crap! I've only got about 5.8GB!
And that's going back almost 20 years!(*)
23GB?! Wow. Just... wow!
Impressive...
And that's 23GB compressed. I have dovecot running on my PC for sieve mail
filtering and storage. My mailboxes are stored on a compressed ZFS
filesystem. That's Sun ZFS on Linux, not z/OS ZFS. It would be about 35GB
uncompressed:

NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE
sys1/dokpm0-dbox used 22.8G -
sys1/dokpm0-dbox compressratio 1.58x -
sys1/dokpm0-dbox compression lz4 local
sys1/dokpm0-dbox logicalused 35.0G -

And I think most of the archives I have only go back to around 2005. That's
how far back my archives for this list go. Looking at my sieve filer rules
I think I'm on just over 300 mailing lists. Boy, I'm an e-mail pack rat.
:-)
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 22:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Of course I nowadays do expect data to be maintained save and searchable
from any forum or group application. Yahoo is simply broken (the groups as
well as the company) and it's only a question of (short) time until they
will cease to exist .
Did you perchance mean to say "I nowadays do NOT expect"...?

So does Yahoo have anything like Google's (or even Facebook's) "takeout"
function? I don't imagine so... I periodically tell Google to export all my
data for each of my IDs, which it happily does, and gives me a link to a
multi-gigabyte ZIP file (or two or three), which contain, among much other
stuff like my Youtube uploads and my Orkut(!) profile, all the Hercules
mail that I have going back a decade or more. The format is not the best,
but it should all be there; it just needs someone to write a little script
to extract and categorize it.

The other takeout approach with Google is to use an imap client, of which
there are many, including even Microsoft Outlook. Does Yahoo offer similar
mail client access, or it their (web) way or the highway?

Tony H.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 15:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tony


No, for once I in fact meant what I wrote (modulo linguistic incompetence, of course) . And that incompetence could have been the word "from", instead of which I probably should have used "by". Those accidentally used germanisms for sure get me more often into trouble than I'm aware of.


Anyway: What I meant was the expectation that any service accumulating user data, be it free or not, assumes full responsibility for the integrity of this data. It must neither modify nor lose that data and has to keep it accessible, searchable (where applicable for the type of the service) and withdrawable at all times. In particular I don't want having to maintain my own archive, just because the service isn't trustworthy.


Yahoo clearly doesn't meet even this minimalistic spec, so I'm wondering why they are still in business.


Cheers
JÃŒrgen


---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :

On 9 February 2016 at 15:38, ***@... mailto:***@... wrote:
Of course I nowadays do expect data to be maintained save and searchable from any forum or group application. Yahoo is simply broken (the groups as well as the company) and it's only a question of (short) time until they will cease to exist .


Did you perchance mean to say "I nowadays do NOT expect"...?


So does Yahoo have anything like Google's (or even Facebook's) "takeout" function? I don't imagine so... I periodically tell Google to export all my data for each of my IDs, which it happily does, and gives me a link to a multi-gigabyte ZIP file (or two or three), which contain, among much other stuff like my Youtube uploads and my Orkut(!) profile, all the Hercules mail that I have going back a decade or more. The format is not the best, but it should all be there; it just needs someone to write a little script to extract and categorize it.


The other takeout approach with Google is to use an imap client, of which there are many, including even Microsoft Outlook. Does Yahoo offer similar mail client access, or it their (web) way or the highway?



Tony H.
'Dave Wade' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 16:41:39 UTC
Permalink
They are still in business because they make money from Chinese set ups.
Being “free” its hard to beat them on price


Dave

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 10 February 2016 15:22
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: 3215 Console Telnet from Putty rejected





Hi Tony

No, for once I in fact meant what I wrote (modulo linguistic incompetence, of course) <Loading Image...> . And that incompetence could have been the word "from", instead of which I probably should have used "by". Those accidentally used germanisms for sure get me more often into trouble than I'm aware of.

Anyway: What I meant was the expectation that any service accumulating user data, be it free or not, assumes full responsibility for the integrity of this data. It must neither modify nor lose that data and has to keep it accessible, searchable (where applicable for the type of the service) and withdrawable at all times. In particular I don't want having to maintain my own archive, just because the service isn't trustworthy.

Yahoo clearly doesn't meet even this minimalistic spec, so I'm wondering why they are still in business.

Cheers
JÃŒrgen

---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> , <***@... <mailto:***@...> > wrote :
On 9 February 2016 at 15:38, ***@... <mailto:***@...> wrote:
Of course I nowadays do expect data to be maintained save and searchable from any forum or group application. Yahoo is simply broken (the groups as well as the company) and it's only a question of (short) time until they will cease to exist .

Did you perchance mean to say "I nowadays do NOT expect"...?
So does Yahoo have anything like Google's (or even Facebook's) "takeout" function? I don't imagine so... I periodically tell Google to export all my data for each of my IDs, which it happily does, and gives me a link to a multi-gigabyte ZIP file (or two or three), which contain, among much other stuff like my Youtube uploads and my Orkut(!) profile, all the Hercules mail that I have going back a decade or more. The format is not the best, but it should all be there; it just needs someone to write a little script to extract and categorize it.
The other takeout approach with Google is to use an imap client, of which there are many, including even Microsoft Outlook. Does Yahoo offer similar mail client access, or it their (web) way or the highway?

Tony H.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 17:22:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 2016-02-09 at 11:55 -0800, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
ost all of it contains extremely useful/valuable technical information.)
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/67296
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
What I remember from my head, I did to find out what to fix
was tracing the negotiation dialog and then simply suppressing
the offending message from PuTTY to Hercules, as the result
wouldn't have mattered anyway.
Hercules's "negotiate()" function in console.c is poorly written and leaves a lot to be desired.
For the past several days (ever since this issue came up) I've been looking at Hercules as well as at a github project called "libtelnet" (https://github.com/seanmiddleditch/libtelnet), and 1) have managed to trace the Hercules <--> PuTTY telnet negotiation and have come to more or less the same results/conclusion as Doug did, and 2) have come up with some ideas as to how we might be able to either: a) make a few (simple? we'll see!) changes to Hercules to be more RFC compliant, -OR- b) integrate 'libtelnet' into Hercules.
This is probably something we should discuss on the zHercules developers group. It also merits creation of a GitHub Issue for it too (which I haven't done yet) as this issue has been with us since day one and still hasn't been properly resolved. (Instead, several workaround hacks/kludges have simply been made, which is not good.)
Yes. Sounds like a good topic for discussion. Look forward to. Thanks
Fish for doing this research.

Harold
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 17:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
That also reminds me, what setting did your patch fix?
Given that I also run Hercules on Linux, I'll make use
of your source code and promptly rebuild the Putty example
for Slackware Linux with your fix enabled.
It's all there in the .zip file!

The patch showing the change he made, the source with the change applied, the binaries built using the patched source, etc.

EVERYTHING.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:41:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gregg


Presumably you avoided reading the README . It says:


"To connect to a Hercules host use the default configuration and switch to passive negotiation on the telnet configuration panel."


Well, you apparently missed switching to passive negotiation. Look at the telnet configuration panel, there you'll find the checkbox for passive negotiation...


Why did I do it this way? Passive negotiation is almost never used but fully suffices for Hercules connectivity. I didn't want to change any "regular" PuTTY behavior, so I made the modification to passive mode only.



Cheers
JÃŒrgen

---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :


Hello!
Okay I found the version you released to work, however, when trying
connect to a running Hercules instance, I get "NETWORK ERROR" on the
Putty side, and it claims further that reset of something disconnected
it. I tried both with the Fish GUI, and with commandline mode. I also
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.

Any suggestions?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@... mailto:***@...
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi Gregg
thanks for mentioning the new version.
Last year many ssl based services closed security weaknesses, which in turn
forced client developers to adapt their products. So, for example, PuTTY
0.63 is no longer able to connect to current OS X incarnations using ssh,
while PuTTY 0.66 works flawlessly in the same constellation.
One could say "who cares, we are talking telnet here, not ssh". But
typically one get's used to a certain terminal emulation and doesn't want to
have to remember using a different version for telnet into Hercules and for
doing "modern" stuff like ssh.
So, I adapted the patch I created for PuTTY 0.62/0.63 to work with PuTTY
0.66. It can be downloaded at
https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf
The zip file contains copies of the source and the patch (for those wanting
to do their own builds) as well as patched binaries for Windows, Linux and
OS X. See the README for information.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again.
________________________________
________________________________
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Huh? There's a README? Okay. I'm kidding. In my humble experience,
software is largely self explanatory. But next time certainly.
Probably after I send this off.

To wit: UNIX is certainly self explanatory. It's also the only one who
can be user friendly and pick who it wants to be friendly with, it
also has an amazing family..........
--
Strange.... What's that robot doing outside Dave W's house examining
the rubbish skips?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi Gregg
"To connect to a Hercules host use the default configuration and switch to passive negotiation on the telnet configuration panel."
Well, you apparently missed switching to passive negotiation. Look at the telnet configuration panel, there you'll find the checkbox for passive negotiation...
Why did I do it this way? Passive negotiation is almost never used but fully suffices for Hercules connectivity. I didn't want to change any "regular" PuTTY behavior, so I made the modification to passive mode only.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Hello!
Okay I found the version you released to work, however, when trying
connect to a running Hercules instance, I get "NETWORK ERROR" on the
Putty side, and it claims further that reset of something disconnected
it. I tried both with the Fish GUI, and with commandline mode. I also
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.
Any suggestions?
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi Gregg
thanks for mentioning the new version.
Last year many ssl based services closed security weaknesses, which in turn
forced client developers to adapt their products. So, for example, PuTTY
0.63 is no longer able to connect to current OS X incarnations using ssh,
while PuTTY 0.66 works flawlessly in the same constellation.
One could say "who cares, we are talking telnet here, not ssh". But
typically one get's used to a certain terminal emulation and doesn't want to
have to remember using a different version for telnet into Hercules and for
doing "modern" stuff like ssh.
So, I adapted the patch I created for PuTTY 0.62/0.63 to work with PuTTY
0.66. It can be downloaded at
https://polybox.ethz.ch/index.php/s/681aa37d48a20a36c88700a1f60f8eaf
The zip file contains copies of the source and the patch (for those wanting
to do their own builds) as well as patched binaries for Windows, Linux and
OS X. See the README for information.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Hello!
Okay.
I then snagged the binary that was made available earlier. By the way,
the regular maintainer has since released a version 0.66 of his useful
product.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again.
________________________________
________________________________
Mike Stramba mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:55:41 UTC
Permalink
... trying to use putty ...
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.
What about the *port* ?

When creating a new (telnet) connection with putty, the port will
default to 23, which is (probably ?) not what your hercules CNSLPORT
is set to.

Mike
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Mike the beauty of this group, is that its implied that the port
chosen certainly isn't the default one, but the one that Hercules
normally uses, 3270. JÃŒrgen definitely didn't ask.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by Mike Stramba ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
... trying to use putty ...
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned IP address.
What about the *port* ?
When creating a new (telnet) connection with putty, the port will
default to 23, which is (probably ?) not what your hercules CNSLPORT
is set to.
Mike
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 17:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Okay I found the version you released to work, however,
when trying connect to a running Hercules instance, I
get "NETWORK ERROR" on the Putty side, and it claims further
that reset of something disconnected it. I tried both
with the Fish GUI, and with commandline mode. I also
tried to use both localhost and the laptop's assigned
IP address.
Any suggestions?
Odd. I just tried it and it seems to work just fine for me.

The settings I used were:

Session:

Host: 127.0.0.1, port: 3270
Connection type: telnet

Connection/Data:

Terminal type string: ansi
Terminal speeds: (blank)

Connection/Telnet:

Negotiation: passive
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 08:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Gregg Levine wrote:

[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and
tn3270 service that Hercules runs and will work with
the clumsy telnet client that Windows has, but won't
work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and not
fixed varieties.
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding
Putty, and possibly Hercules?
Can I ask a silly question?

WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place instead of a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's excellent Vista TN3270(*) product?

Is there a legitimate need to telnet into your guest? What's wrong with using an emulated 3270 display terminal instead? (I.e. what are you using a 3215 device in your Hercules config file instead of a 3270 device? (or even a 3215-C?))
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com

(*) http://www.tombrennansoftware.com/
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 09:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place instead of
a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's excellent Vista
TN3270(*) product?
I can't speak for Gregg, but just about every decent telnet client
supports tabs, and some even support user/program set tab positions
other than the 8/16/24... set (e.g., 10 16 35 71). When I'm writing
brand new code, I can type it about twice as fast when I can use tabs,
rather than curs(or)ing on a 3270.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 10:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Gerhard Postpischil wrote:

[...]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I can't speak for Gregg, but just about every decent telnet
client supports tabs, and some even support user/program set
tab positions other than the 8/16/24... set (e.g., 10 16 35
71). When I'm writing brand new code, I can type it about
twice as fast when I can use tabs, rather than curs(or)ing on
a 3270.
Many mainframe editors support logical tabstops too, such as TSO/ISPF and XEDIT, etc. You define your logical tab character and your tabstop positions (columns) and whenever you enter a line with the defined tab character, it gets automatically expanded to the proper number of spaces such that the text before/after it end up at the corresponding tabstop column.

No "curs(or)ing" needed.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 12:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Many mainframe editors support logical tabstops too, such as TSO/ISPF
and XEDIT, etc. You define your logical tab character and your
tabstop positions (columns) and whenever you enter a line with the
defined tab character, it gets automatically expanded to the proper
number of spaces such that the text before/after it end up at the
corresponding tabstop column.
What they do not support is moving the cursor to the correct physical
position on the screen while you're typing - this makes it more
difficult to see what's going on.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 10:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I can't speak for Gregg, but just about
every decent telnet client supports tabs,
and some even support user/program
set tab positions other than the 8/16/24...
set (e.g., 10 16 35 71). When I'm writing
brand new code, I can type it about twice
as fast when I can use tabs, rather than
curs(or)ing on a 3270.
What MVS editor do you use when
you are connected via telnet? And
what others are available besides
the one you use?

Thanks. Paul.
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place instead of
a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's excellent Vista
TN3270(*) product?
I can't speak for Gregg, but just about every decent telnet client
supports tabs, and some even support user/program set tab positions
other than the 8/16/24... set (e.g., 10 16 35 71). When I'm writing
brand new code, I can type it about twice as fast when I can use tabs,
rather than curs(or)ing on a 3270.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 12:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What MVS editor do you use when
you are connected via telnet? And
what others are available besides
the one you use?
Wylbur, but it's not ready for general use yet.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 11:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
When I'm writing
brand new code, I can type it about twice as fast when I can use tabs,
rather than curs(or)ing on a 3270.
You are aware that shift-insert generates a tab order on a 3270?
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 12:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
When I'm writing
brand new code, I can type it about twice as fast when I can use tabs,
rather than curs(or)ing on a 3270.
You are aware that shift-insert generates a tab order on a 3270?
But tab on a standard 3270 only skips to the next field, which isn't
what's needed. I vaguely recall a text processing mode that supported
arbitrary tabs without field orders, but AFAIK that just sends a tab,
but doesn't adjust the cursor.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 14:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Actually Fish it is not a silly question. I use Putty for my SSH
duties. I normally use PCOM from IBM for my TN3270 work, and as it
happens I find its user functions interesting, as in writing code to
understand it.

However, I'm still wondering what fix was suggested. And Mike I did
download the bundle on our mutual friend's site.

Strange, Dave W, what's that improbable monster doing digging in your
garbage cans?
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 3:50 AM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and
tn3270 service that Hercules runs and will work with
the clumsy telnet client that Windows has, but won't
work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and not
fixed varieties.
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding
Putty, and possibly Hercules?
Can I ask a silly question?
WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place instead of a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's excellent Vista TN3270(*) product?
Is there a legitimate need to telnet into your guest? What's wrong with using an emulated 3270 display terminal instead? (I.e. what are you using a 3215 device in your Hercules config file instead of a 3270 device? (or even a 3215-C?))
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
(*) http://www.tombrennansoftware.com/
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 12:33:57 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Can I ask a silly question?
WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place
instead of a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's
excellent Vista TN3270(*) product?
Is there a legitimate need to telnet into your guest? What's
wrong with using an emulated 3270 display terminal instead?
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Actually Fish it is not a silly question. I use Putty for my
SSH duties.
[...]

SSH during an MVS 3.7 starter install? I'm doubting it. During a Linux install yeah, but MVS? Nope. I'm not buying it. I seriously doubt an MVS 3.7 starter installer knows anything about SSH.

I use PuTTY for SSH connections too, but only during either a Linux install or to Linux system after it's been installed (both of which understand telnet/SSH), but never have I used it during an MVS 3.7 starter install, which I believe was the original issue/problem that started this thread.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
Jay Jaeger cube1@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 15:15:38 UTC
Permalink
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: 3215 Console Telnet from Putty rejected
Date: Thu Feb 4, 2016 12:50 am ((PST))
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But what was supposed to be fixed in the telnet and
tn3270 service that Hercules runs and will work with
the clumsy telnet client that Windows has, but won't
work with Putty who exists in both fixed, and not
fixed varieties.
[...]
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
But the fact remains, what was or wasn't fixed regarding
Putty, and possibly Hercules?
Can I ask a silly question?
WHY are you trying to use telnet/PuTTY in the first place instead of a simple TN3270 client such as Tom Brennan's excellent Vista TN3270(*) product?
Um, because it is FREE. I have wc3270 for my 3270 client. One thing I
had not thought of until now was that it might have a line mode - would
have to check.
Is there a legitimate need to telnet into your guest? What's wrong with using an emulated 3270 display terminal instead?
(I.e. what are you using a 3215 device in your Hercules config file instead of a 3270 device? (or even a 3215-C?))
Yes, there was a need, because I was trying to run the MVS 3.7 starter,
which does not HAVE a 3270 terminal defined, and because MVS 3.8j was
not working with the P390 AWS3274/LAN3274 component. That was explained
in my original post.
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-04 16:58:57 UTC
Permalink
In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:
- - - beginning snipped - - -
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Yes, there was a need, because I was trying to run the MVS 3.7 starter,
which does not HAVE a 3270 terminal defined, and because MVS 3.8j was
not working with the P390 AWS3274/LAN3274 component. That was explained
in my original post.
Are you certain that the starter system doesn't have
a 3270 console or other 3270 devices? Did you enter
on your Hercules 3215-C console:

/d c or /d c,l
/d u,graphic or /d u,graphic,,,999

If there are issues with your AWS3274/LAN3274 drivers, you might
want to post a question of the P370-L ListServ list.

I'm not about to search for your original post. If needed information,
include it with your posts that it is relevant to.
cube1@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 02:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are you certain that the starter system doesn't have
a 3270 console or other 3270 devices? Did you enter
The reason I went to the starter in the first place was that when I tried my "normal" MVS38j system, the channel program for the 3270 threw an Invalid Length error during the process of writing the IEA101A message.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If there are issues with your AWS3274/LAN3274 drivers, you might
want to post a question of the P370-L ListServ list.
They are IBMs. No source. They are what they are. One reason I went to the starter was to see if MVS would actually run before I went into possibly a considerable effort to understand what the hiccup in the 3270 stuff is. And I am glad I did, since, at least right now, MVS is not very happy.
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 03:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are you certain that the starter system doesn't have
a 3270 console or other 3270 devices? Did you enter
The reason I went to the starter in the first place was that
when I tried my "normal" MVS38j system, the channel
program for the 3270 threw an Invalid Length error during
the process of writing the IEA101A message.
Then you found a 3215/1052 console address.
Define as a 3215-c device.
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If there are issues with your AWS3274/LAN3274 drivers, you
might want to post a question of the P370-L ListServ list.
They are IBMs. No source. They are what they are.
Do you have the most current version that IBM created?
Did you ask on the P370-L ListServ list?
Is there a patch or workaround available?
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
One reason I went to the starter was to see if MVS would
actually run before I went into possibly a considerable effort
to understand what the hiccup in the 3270 stuff is.
If there is an issue, other P390 users might be able to help?
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
And I am glad I did, since, at least right now, MVS is not
very happy.
The starter system isn't extremely happy either.
Jay Jaeger cube1@charter.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 13:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are you certain that the starter system doesn't have
a 3270 console or other 3270 devices? Did you enter
The reason I went to the starter in the first place was that
when I tried my "normal" MVS38j system, the channel
program for the 3270 threw an Invalid Length error during
the process of writing the IEA101A message.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Then you found a 3215/1052 console address.
Define as a 3215-c device.
Yes, I realize I could do that now. It doesn't obviate the fact that it
isn't how I would prefer to do a hard copy console or that the telnet
negotiation in Hercules is behaving oddly - at the very least it could
throw out an NVT message as to why it is terminating the session and
then wait a second or two for the user to see it.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
If there are issues with your AWS3274/LAN3274 drivers, you
might want to post a question of the P370-L ListServ list.
They are IBMs. No source. They are what they are.
Do you have the most current version that IBM created?
Yes. Downloaded from ftp://p390.ibm.com (which still exists).
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Did you ask on the P370-L ListServ list?
Is there a patch or workaround available?
No - I may check that out at some point. But as someone said earlier,
the group doesn't seem to be very active.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
One reason I went to the starter was to see if MVS would
actually run before I went into possibly a considerable effort
to understand what the hiccup in the 3270 stuff is.
If there is an issue, other P390 users might be able to help?
We seem to be pretty few and far between, but I knew that at least one
or two used to hang out here from posts in the past.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
And I am glad I did, since, at least right now, MVS is not
very happy.
The starter system isn't extremely happy either.
So far. But there is a chance that it is an AWS format issue involving
track overflow, so I am currently working on reloading the starter from
the AWS tape image that accompanied it. Last nite I found a few minutes
to run the standalones and get it loaded. Won't have any time to
proceed further today.
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 15:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Are you certain that the starter system doesn't have
a 3270 console or other 3270 devices? Did you enter
The reason I went to the starter in the first place was that
when I tried my "normal" MVS38j system, the channel
program for the 3270 threw an Invalid Length error during
the process of writing the IEA101A message.
Then you found a 3215/1052 console address.
Define as a 3215-c device.
Yes, I realize I could do that now. It doesn't obviate the fact that it
isn't how I would prefer to do a hard copy console
I can only help debug the issues and give a few of the options,
not change your system. Please put HARDCPY where you please.
or that the telnet
negotiation in Hercules is behaving oddly - at the very least it could
throw out an NVT message as to why it is terminating the session and
then wait a second or two for the user to see it.
- - - remainder snipped - - -

I already agreed that telnet is a bug and that it doesn't work well for
an MVS line-mode console and told you about alternatives.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-05 21:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
or that the telnet negotiation in Hercules is behaving oddly -
at the very least it could throw out an NVT message as to why
it is terminating the session and then wait a second or two for
the user to see it.
Just a quick comment here: Yes, Hercules telnet negotiation doesn't seem to be fully RFC compliant in all situations. There are quite a few posts in this group describing this in great detail from various points of view. Whether this qualifies as a bug may be arguable. However, as far as I know, PuTTY is the only telnet client which completely fails to negotiate a session due to this oddity. All other clients negotiate successfully.


While it is not fully trivial to "fix" Hercules to work with PuTTY, it is trivial to "fix" PuTTY to work with Hercules. This fixed version of PuTTY works smoothly with Hercules, as a 3215/1052 console as well as through emulated 3705 or 2703 attachments. Given its platform independency (available for Linux, OS X and WIndows), for me it is _the_ telnet client of choice to work with Hercules, for my APL\360 (OS/360 MVT) distribution as well for the TK4- (MVS 3.8j) system.


As far as I can see, the Windows binary uploaded recently by Scott/Mike is the modified PuTTY I created a few years ago. In this thread, Mike cited one of my posts around PuTTY. This post also has a pointer to the source of the patch I created, plus binaries not only for Windows but also for OS X and Linux.


In a pragmatic sense this was/is the easiest way to get PuTTY to work with Hercules: As it is for sure no PuTTY bug, it wouldn't make sense to submit the patch to the PuTTY developer. On the other hand, patching Hercules (in at least three locations, commadpt.c, comm3705.c and console.c) wouldn't have been worth the effort (at least not for me, of course I can't tell whether one of the developers will pick this up some time).


So, that's the current state of affairs!
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
- - - remainder snipped - - -
I already agreed that telnet is a bug and that it doesn't work well for
an MVS line-mode console and told you about alternatives.
telnet isn't a bug. It is a highly standardized client/server communications protocol. I'd greatly appreciate if you stopped claiming telnet doesn't work well for MVS line-mode consoles. It _is_ working perfectly with all kinds of line/character oriented devices, including but not limited to consoles.


There are well established uses cases for both, telnet connected devices (including consoles), as well as for the internal (-C) consoles.


Cheers
JÃŒrgen
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-06 17:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
or that the telnet negotiation in Hercules is behaving oddly -
at the very least it could throw out an NVT message as to why
it is terminating the session and then wait a second or two for
the user to see it.
Just a quick comment here: Yes, Hercules telnet negotiation doesn't
seem to be fully RFC compliant in all situations. There are quite a few
Yes, we have had fifteen years of posts about Windows telnet, putty
telnet, and other telnets having issues and with MVS console buffers
backing up and locking the system up. That was not introduced with
TK4-minus but it has been a long standing issue.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
posts in this group describing this in great detail from various points
of view. Whether this qualifies as a bug may be arguable. However,
as far as I know, PuTTY is the only telnet client which completely
fails to negotiate a session due to this oddity. All other clients
negotiate successfully.
You are close but I believe that various Windows telnets have been
even worse than putty.

Can we agree that any telnet with MVS consoles is asking for trouble?
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
While it is not fully trivial to "fix" Hercules to work with PuTTY,
it is trivial to "fix" PuTTY to work with Hercules. This fixed version
of PuTTY works smoothly with Hercules, as a 3215/1052 console
as well as through emulated 3705 or 2703 attachments. Given its
platform independency (available for Linux, OS X and WIndows),
for me it is _the_ telnet client of choice to work with Hercules,
for my APL\360 (OS/360 MVT) distribution as well for the TK4-
(MVS 3.8j) system.
With MVS consoles, after IPL is complete, you don't even need a
telnet client connected to have backed up buffers and lock the
system up. That is to say that rewriting every telnet client that
exists might not fix the issue of MVS console backing up when
a client is not even connected.

If a secondary console, all a users sees before MVS slows
to a crawl or locks up is an intervention required message
that depending of roll-mode may be a thousand lines back.

I had noticed that for your TK4-minus system that you normally
use the web interface with a Hercules integrated console but
looking at problem reports, other users seem to be going
through IPL timing gyrations just to try to use telnet.
You normally using a Hercules integrated console for yourself
instead of any telnet client sounds like a sound move to me.
You can still try a telnet client if you need a challenge.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
As far as I can see, the Windows binary uploaded recently by
Scott/Mike is the modified PuTTY I created a few years ago.
In this thread, Mike cited one of my posts around PuTTY.
This post also has a pointer to the source of the patch I
created, plus binaries not only for Windows but also for
OS X and Linux.
There are many telnet clients that sort-of function.
It helps to know how to configure them.
Don't put down all telnet clients just because many have quirks.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
In a pragmatic sense this was/is the easiest way to get PuTTY
to work with Hercules: As it is for sure no PuTTY bug, it wouldn't
make sense to submit the patch to the PuTTY developer. On the
other hand, patching Hercules (in at least three locations,
commadpt.c, comm3705.c and console.c) wouldn't have been
worth the effort (at least not for me, of course I can't tell whether
one of the developers will pick this up some time).
If making three changes to Hercules will fix many telnet clients
and MVS console buffers from backing up enough to lock the
MVS system up, let us hope that it get down.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
So, that's the current state of affairs!
Yes, using telnet for an MVS console has issues:

1. Picking a functioning telnet client.

2. Telnet configuration issues.

3. MVS IPL timing issues. If a telnet IPL console, a telnet
client must connect before the Hercules IPL command.

4. MVS console buffer issues because MVS doesn't know
to vary a console offline just because it stops or never
started receiving messages.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
- - - remainder snipped - - -
I already agreed that telnet is a bug and that it doesn't
work well for an MVS line-mode console and told you
about alternatives.
telnet isn't a bug. It is a highly standardized client/server
communications protocol. I'd greatly appreciate if you
stopped claiming telnet doesn't work well for MVS line-mode
consoles. It _is_ working perfectly with all kinds of
line/character oriented devices, including but not limited
to consoles.
You just came from claiming that telnet clients have issues
to "It _is_ working perfectly". My head is spinning.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
There are well established uses cases for both, telnet
connected devices (including consoles), as well as for
the internal (-C) consoles.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Since you describe both telnet client issues and telnet
perfection, I'll stick to normally using Hercules integrated
consoles until I feel that I need added difficulties.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-08 20:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi somitcw


Obviously, you either didn't read my post or, once again, my English was too bad to bring my message through. So, here once again, for clarification.


My post had to parts:
The first part was a reply to Jay Jaeger's telnet negotiation problems with PuTTY. I tried to explain that it is perfectly possible to make it negotiate successfully with Hercules after applying a minimal patch (to PuTTY, not to Hercules), which I developed some years ago in the course of the APL\360 resurrection project. The motivation for this was having a single telnet client available on all three targeted systems, Windows, Linux, and OS X. Although there do of course exist suitable individual clients for each of the platforms (such as HyperTerminal on Windows, rxvt4apl on the various *i*x platforms) having a unique client at hand greatly eased the creation of the APL\360 distribution.
The second part was a reply to your rambling concerning telnet consoles on MVS. I made clear that telnet generally works perfectly with Hercules, thereby pointing out that console are only a special case of many use cases for telnet device connectivity with Hercules. This is a totally different story than the PuTTY specific negotiation issue discussed in the first part.
For whatever reason you intermixed those two independent argumentations into fantasizing about invalid conclusions I never insinuated.


I don't mind if you don't want to accept that telnet is working perfectly well for the present use cases (3215/1052/2703/3705). However, I do mind if you are insinuating malfunction, thus leading people on time consuming side tracks instead of solving their problems.


And, btw., if telnet is really that bad: Why don't you just sit down and program an alternate solution instead of rambling for 15 years?


Cheers
Juergen
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
or that the telnet negotiation in Hercules is behaving oddly -
at the very least it could throw out an NVT message as to why
it is terminating the session and then wait a second or two for
the user to see it.
Just a quick comment here: Yes, Hercules telnet negotiation doesn't
seem to be fully RFC compliant in all situations. There are quite a few
Yes, we have had fifteen years of posts about Windows telnet, putty
telnet, and other telnets having issues and with MVS console buffers
backing up and locking the system up. That was not introduced with
TK4-minus but it has been a long standing issue.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
posts in this group describing this in great detail from various points
of view. Whether this qualifies as a bug may be arguable. However,
as far as I know, PuTTY is the only telnet client which completely
fails to negotiate a session due to this oddity. All other clients
negotiate successfully.
You are close but I believe that various Windows telnets have been
even worse than putty.

Can we agree that any telnet with MVS consoles is asking for trouble?
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
While it is not fully trivial to "fix" Hercules to work with PuTTY,
it is trivial to "fix" PuTTY to work with Hercules. This fixed version
of PuTTY works smoothly with Hercules, as a 3215/1052 console
as well as through emulated 3705 or 2703 attachments. Given its
platform independency (available for Linux, OS X and WIndows),
for me it is _the_ telnet client of choice to work with Hercules,
for my APL\360 (OS/360 MVT) distribution as well for the TK4-
(MVS 3.8j) system.
With MVS consoles, after IPL is complete, you don't even need a
telnet client connected to have backed up buffers and lock the
system up. That is to say that rewriting every telnet client that
exists might not fix the issue of MVS console backing up when
a client is not even connected.

If a secondary console, all a users sees before MVS slows
to a crawl or locks up is an intervention required message
that depending of roll-mode may be a thousand lines back.

I had noticed that for your TK4-minus system that you normally
use the web interface with a Hercules integrated console but
looking at problem reports, other users seem to be going
through IPL timing gyrations just to try to use telnet.
You normally using a Hercules integrated console for yourself
instead of any telnet client sounds like a sound move to me.
You can still try a telnet client if you need a challenge.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
As far as I can see, the Windows binary uploaded recently by
Scott/Mike is the modified PuTTY I created a few years ago.
In this thread, Mike cited one of my posts around PuTTY.
This post also has a pointer to the source of the patch I
created, plus binaries not only for Windows but also for
OS X and Linux.
There are many telnet clients that sort-of function.
It helps to know how to configure them.
Don't put down all telnet clients just because many have quirks.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
In a pragmatic sense this was/is the easiest way to get PuTTY
to work with Hercules: As it is for sure no PuTTY bug, it wouldn't
make sense to submit the patch to the PuTTY developer. On the
other hand, patching Hercules (in at least three locations,
commadpt.c, comm3705.c and console.c) wouldn't have been
worth the effort (at least not for me, of course I can't tell whether
one of the developers will pick this up some time).
If making three changes to Hercules will fix many telnet clients
and MVS console buffers from backing up enough to lock the
MVS system up, let us hope that it get down.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
So, that's the current state of affairs!
Yes, using telnet for an MVS console has issues:

1. Picking a functioning telnet client.

2. Telnet configuration issues.

3. MVS IPL timing issues. If a telnet IPL console, a telnet
client must connect before the Hercules IPL command.

4. MVS console buffer issues because MVS doesn't know
to vary a console offline just because it stops or never
started receiving messages.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
- - - remainder snipped - - -
I already agreed that telnet is a bug and that it doesn't
work well for an MVS line-mode console and told you
about alternatives.
telnet isn't a bug. It is a highly standardized client/server
communications protocol. I'd greatly appreciate if you
stopped claiming telnet doesn't work well for MVS line-mode
consoles. It _is_ working perfectly with all kinds of
line/character oriented devices, including but not limited
to consoles.
You just came from claiming that telnet clients have issues
to "It _is_ working perfectly". My head is spinning.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
There are well established uses cases for both, telnet
connected devices (including consoles), as well as for
the internal (-C) consoles.
Cheers
JÃŒrgen
Since you describe both telnet client issues and telnet
perfection, I'll stick to normally using Hercules integrated
consoles until I feel that I need added difficulties.
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 16:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi somitcw
Obviously, you either didn't read my post or, once again,
my English was too bad to bring my message through. So,
here once again, for clarification.
I replied to one post, not two pieces of a post.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
The first part was a reply to Jay Jaeger's telnet negotiation problems
with PuTTY. I tried to explain that it is perfectly possible to make it
negotiate successfully with Hercules after applying a minimal patch
(to PuTTY, not to Hercules), which I developed some years ago in
the course of the APL\360 resurrection project. The motivation for
this was having a single telnet client available on all three targeted
systems, Windows, Linux, and OS X. Although there do of course
exist suitable individual clients for each of the platforms (such as
HyperTerminal on Windows, rxvt4apl on the various *i*x platforms)
having a unique client at hand greatly eased the creation of the
APL\360 distribution.
Yes, you mentioned a few of the telnet issues and I agreed with you
and still agree that using telnet has issues.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
The second part was a reply to your rambling concerning telnet
consoles on MVS. I made clear that telnet generally works perfectly
There was no "generally works perfectly" involved. After trashing
telnet, you posted: "It _is_ working perfectly".
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
with Hercules, thereby pointing out that console are only a special
case of many use cases for telnet device connectivity with Hercules.
This is a totally different story than the PuTTY specific negotiation
issue discussed in the first part.
For whatever reason you intermixed those two independent
argumentations into fantasizing about invalid conclusions
never insinuated.
To repeat, I replied to one post, not two pieces of a post.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
I don't mind if you don't want to accept that telnet is working
perfectly well for the present use cases (3215/1052/2703/3705).
However, I do mind if you are insinuating malfunction, thus
leading people on time consuming side tracks instead of
solving their problems.
There was no "insinuating malfunction", I stated straight out
that using telnet for MVS consoles has issues.
Finding a working line-mode telnet, configuring a line-mode
telnet. IPL timing issues when using CRT and line-mode
telnet as an IPL console, and MVS not detecting a missing
or broken line-mode telnet so all console buffers fill causing
MVS to grind to a halt. Did I mention that you don't even
need a telnet client to fill MVS console line buffers?
Yes I did mention that.

I currently have no line-mode telnet client installed but just
defining a secondary console and IPLing shows 64 buffers
already in use with a total system limit of 250 buffers:

0009 3215-C / # line-mode integrated console # 3
001F 3215 # line-mode telnet console # 4

HHC00008I /d c,l
11.48.46 IEE250I 11.48.46 CONSOLE DISPLAY 208
WTO BUFFERS: CURR = 64 LIM = 250
CONSOLE/ALT COND AUTH ID AREA NBUF ROUTCD
30E/010 H CMDS 05 ALL
010/011 N,J ALL 01 Z,A 1-13,15
011/010 N,J ALL 02 Z,A 1-13,15
009/01F M,T ALL 03 ALL
01F/009 A,T ALL 04 64 ALL
30E/010 A NONE 05 ALL

HHC01603I devlist 0009
HHC02279I 0:0009 3215 *syscons cmdpref(/) IO[101]

HHC01603I devlist 001f
HHC02279I 0:001F 3215 IO[6]

A broken connection after IPLing to any line-mode telnet
console does the same thing.

Anything that stops the line-mode telnet client from
receiving messages does the same thing.

Anyone can do it and they do do it.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
And, btw., if telnet is really that bad: Why don't you just sit
down and program an alternate solution instead of rambling
for 15 years?
Cheers
Juergen
- - - old notes snipped - - -

An alternate solution is already available.
It's the one that you use.
It's called Hercules Integrated Console.
From several bug reports I believe that your system
does support line-mode telnet but you prefer for your
normal use to use a Hercules Integrated Console.

You posted some of the line-mode telnet issues.
I have no experience in writing any PC telnet client, so
why ask me to write code to fix what you are reporting?

I just let people know of an option to avoid the issues if they wish and
I also help them to do it the hard way if they wish.
You might prefer that I write code PC code but I pick my contribution.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-09 20:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi somitcw
Obviously, you either didn't read my post or, once again,
my English was too bad to bring my message through. So,
here once again, for clarification.
I replied to one post, not two pieces of a post.
Exactly! You refuse to acknowledge what I intended to express. Instead you deliberately replace my intention with your own interpretation. You even do so after I tried to clarify what I intended to express.
All malfunctions (be they insinuated or stated straight out) you are describing are user errors and should be handled as such: By explaining to the user what is going wrong, clearly marking workaround recommendations (like -C) as such, instead of claiming "issues with telnet", insinuating telnet consoles are coming straight from hell.
Consoles are a small subset of the whole set of telnet use cases. All those use cases work perfectly as designed.
-C devices are an alternative to telnet devices for consoles only, but not for the other use cases. Or do you want to tell me you would want to run an APL\360 session on a 1052-C device???
I don't have the time to further consider your quibbling.
JÃŒrgen
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 04:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi somitcw
Obviously, you either didn't read my post or, once again,
my English was too bad to bring my message through. So,
here once again, for clarification.
I replied to one post, not two pieces of a post.
Exactly! You refuse to acknowledge what I intended to express. Instead you
deliberately replace my intention with your own interpretation. You even do so
after I tried to clarify what I intended to express.
All malfunctions (be they insinuated or stated straight out) you are describing
are user errors and should be handled as such: By explaining to the user what
is going wrong, clearly marking workaround recommendations (like -C) as such,
instead of claiming "issues with telnet", insinuating telnet consoles are coming
straight from hell.
Sorry, but not all newbies are full trained system programmers that can
detect invisible console buffers filling and correct the issue given to them.

I've told many users about how telnet is causing MVS system hangs and
that Hercules Integrated Consoles fixes the weird IPL timing and MVS
consoles hanging from telnet sessions that may or may not even exist.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Consoles are a small subset of the whole set of telnet use cases.
All those use cases work perfectly as designed.
-C devices are an alternative to telnet devices for consoles only,
No, 3215-C works for line-mode devices.
It knows nothing about consoles or application programs.

I didn't expand into other telnet issues, just some with MVS consoles.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
but not for the other use cases. Or do you want to tell me you would
want to run an APL\360 session on a 1052-C device???
I don't have the time to further consider your quibbling.
JÃŒrgen
What does APL/360 have to do with the price of oranges?
You should probably change the typeball.
Either way, it will look weird.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 13:39:43 UTC
Permalink
somitcw


I still have no bloody idea what you are talking about, as all effects you are describing fall in the "works as designed" category.


Should you however mean the MVS feature which keeps 3215 consoles (as opposed to 3270 ones) active after an I/O error instead of switching them, then five lines of scripting in Hercules turn the feature off by deactivating a 3215 console after an I/O error occurred. However, I can't really imagine you rambled 15 years about that instead of simply scripting it away.


Anyway, consider having a 3215 console for use with telnet at 01F and having the following two scripts accessible to Hercules (in TK4- those scripts would reside in local_scripts, but they could in fact be anywhere):
_____________________________________
watch_01F
---------
hao tgt IEA000A 01F,INT REQ
hao cmd script local_scripts/stop_01F
_____________________________________
stop_01F
--------
i 01f
pause 2
/v 01f,offline
_____________________________________


Then your "problem" can be solved by simply running script watch_01F once before the first use of the 3215 telnet console (blue are commands entered, red are 3215 at 01F related messages):


HHC01603I attach 01F 3215 CONS
HHC01018I 0:001F COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3215: connected
HHC00008I /v 01f,console
13.37.26 IEE349I CONSOLES
CONSOLE/ALT COND AUTH ID ROUTCD
01F/009 A ALL 04 1-13,15-16
HHC01603I script local_scripts/watch_01F
HHC02260I Script 6: begin processing file local_scripts/watch_01F
HHC01603I hao tgt IEA000A 01F,INT REQ
HHC00077I The target was placed at index 4
HHC01603I hao cmd script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC00077I The command was placed at index 4
HHC02264I Script 6: file local_scripts/watch_01F processing ended
HHC01022I 0:001F COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3215: connection closed by client
HHC01018I 0:00C0 COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3270: connected
13.39.12 LGN001I TSO logon in progress at VTAM terminal CUU0C0
13.39.12 *IEA000A 01F,INT REQ,09,0200,4000,,,*MASTER*
HHC00081I Match at index 04, executing command script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC01603I script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC02260I Script 7: begin processing file local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC01603I i 01f
HHC02230I 0:001F attention request raised
HHC00008I /v 01f,offline
HHC02264I Script 7: file local_scripts/stop_01F processing ended
13.39.14 IEE303I 01F OFFLINE



As you can see, the "offending" 3215 console is offline two seconds after the I/O error occurred, preventing it to fill up WTO buffers. On sufficiently recent Hercules versions the console address can of course be parameterized. Also, in most cases the 2 seconds timer should be superfluous.


Of course, this assumes that there exists an active 3215-C console in the system (the usefulness of which I never disputed). If there is no 3215-C then the automation would need to be done on MVS, which also isn't exactly complicated (a small addition to the autopilot would do the trick).


JÃŒrgen
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Hi somitcw
Obviously, you either didn't read my post or, once again,
my English was too bad to bring my message through. So,
here once again, for clarification.
I replied to one post, not two pieces of a post.
Exactly! You refuse to acknowledge what I intended to express. Instead you
deliberately replace my intention with your own interpretation. You even do so
after I tried to clarify what I intended to express.
All malfunctions (be they insinuated or stated straight out) you are describing
are user errors and should be handled as such: By explaining to the user what
is going wrong, clearly marking workaround recommendations (like -C) as such,
instead of claiming "issues with telnet", insinuating telnet consoles are coming
straight from hell.
Sorry, but not all newbies are full trained system programmers that can
detect invisible console buffers filling and correct the issue given to them.

I've told many users about how telnet is causing MVS system hangs and
that Hercules Integrated Consoles fixes the weird IPL timing and MVS
consoles hanging from telnet sessions that may or may not even exist.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Consoles are a small subset of the whole set of telnet use cases.
All those use cases work perfectly as designed.
-C devices are an alternative to telnet devices for consoles only,
No, 3215-C works for line-mode devices.
It knows nothing about consoles or application programs.

I didn't expand into other telnet issues, just some with MVS consoles.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
but not for the other use cases. Or do you want to tell me you would
want to run an APL\360 session on a 1052-C device???
I don't have the time to further consider your quibbling.
JÃŒrgen
What does APL/360 have to do with the price of oranges?
You should probably change the typeball.
Either way, it will look weird.
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 17:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
somitcw
I still have no bloody idea what you are talking about, as all effects
you are describing fall in the "works as designed" category.
I'm just responding to your claiming that telnet has issues and
telnet works perfectly in the same notes.

I agree that telnet has issues.

I don't agree that telnet works perfectly for MVS consoles.

I also don't equate "works as designed" to MVS console buffers
filling that stop MVS from running.
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Should you however mean the MVS feature which keeps 3215 consoles
(as opposed to 3270 ones) active after an I/O error instead of switching
them, then five lines of scripting in Hercules turn the feature off by
deactivating a 3215 console after an I/O error occurred. However, I can't
really imagine you rambled 15 years about that instead of simply
scripting it away.
Not all newbie users should need to write complicated scripts that
may or may not get around one of the issues of the missing "-c".

Should all newbie users also be required to rewrite MVS to not
need a IPL console connected and in session before MVS is
IPLed because of the missing "-c". Real systems did not require
an operator to power-up, plug in a hardware console, ready it,
and then press the blue button. Emulated systems should not
be required to do that either. Hercules doesn't require it.

Should all newbie users also set some telnet keep-alive option
and some reconnect option so the telnet session cannot be
dropped because of the missing "-c".
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Yes, that is
Anyway, consider having a 3215 console for use with telnet at 01F and
having the following two scripts accessible to Hercules (in TK4- those
_____________________________________
watch_01F
---------
hao tgt IEA000A 01F,INT REQ
hao cmd script local_scripts/stop_01F
_____________________________________
stop_01F
--------
i 01f
pause 2
/v 01f,offline
_____________________________________
Then your "problem" can be solved by simply running script watch_01F
once before the first use of the 3215 telnet console (blue are commands
HHC01603I attach 01F 3215 CONS
HHC01018I 0:001F COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3215: connected
HHC00008I /v 01f,console
13.37.26 IEE349I CONSOLES
CONSOLE/ALT COND AUTH ID ROUTCD
01F/009 A ALL 04 1-13,15-16
HHC01603I script local_scripts/watch_01F
HHC02260I Script 6: begin processing file local_scripts/watch_01F
HHC01603I hao tgt IEA000A 01F,INT REQ
HHC00077I The target was placed at index 4
HHC01603I hao cmd script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC00077I The command was placed at index 4
HHC02264I Script 6: file local_scripts/watch_01F processing ended
HHC01022I 0:001F COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3215: connection closed by client
HHC01018I 0:00C0 COMM: client 127.0.0.1 devtype 3270: connected
13.39.12 LGN001I TSO logon in progress at VTAM terminal CUU0C0
13.39.12 *IEA000A 01F,INT REQ,09,0200,4000,,,*MASTER*
HHC00081I Match at index 04, executing command script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC01603I script local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC02260I Script 7: begin processing file local_scripts/stop_01F
HHC01603I i 01f
HHC02230I 0:001F attention request raised
HHC00008I /v 01f,offline
HHC02264I Script 7: file local_scripts/stop_01F processing ended
13.39.14 IEE303I 01F OFFLINE
Even if all newbie users wrote scripts like you posted, your script
and their script would not be bulletproof and would only address
one of the issues with the missing "-c".
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
As you can see, the "offending" 3215 console is offline two seconds
after the I/O error occurred, preventing it to fill up WTO buffers.
On sufficiently recent Hercules versions the console address can of
course be parameterized. Also, in most cases the 2 seconds timer
should be superfluous.
Of course, this assumes that there exists an active 3215-C console
in the system (the usefulness of which I never disputed). If there is no
3215-C then the automation would need to be done on MVS, which
also isn't exactly complicated (a small addition to the autopilot would
do the trick).
JÃŒrgen
- - - old notes snipped - - -

So your incomplete fix for the missing "-c" has two requirements:

1. Newbie users must add or change a console to have the "-c" so
it can process scripts setting HAO or change MVS. For your,
"automation would need to be done on MVS", did you want newbie
users to modify MVS exits or to modify system code?

2. Newbie users must write scripts to partially fix only one of the
issues in having a console defined missing the "-c" which you
just told them to fixed in #1 immediately above.

Can we go back to you equating telnet to hades and me letting
newbie users know that the "-c" will resolve line-mode telnet
issues for MVS consoles including IPL timing, MVS console
buffers filling, and running scripts?

If newbie or advanced users want to fight with various kinds
of MVS consoles, I would be happy to assist but I see no
reason to add battles for newbie users that may only want to
play with CoBOL.
winkelmann@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 20:17:21 UTC
Permalink
somitcw
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
somitcw
I still have no bloody idea what you are talking about, as all effects
you are describing fall in the "works as designed" category.
I'm just responding to your claiming that telnet has issues and telnet works
perfectly in the same notes.
I agree that telnet has issues.
I don't!
I don't agree that telnet works perfectly for MVS consoles.
Hercules consoles of all kind, and telnet consoles in particular, work perfectly as MVS consoles.
I also don't equate "works as designed" to MVS console buffers filling that stop
MVS from running.
It does work as designed.
.
.
. Skipping all quibbling
.
.
Can we go back to you equating telnet to hades
No, definitely not. It's just heavenly.
and me letting newbie users
know that the "-c" will resolve line-mode telnet issues for MVS consoles
including IPL timing, MVS console buffers filling, and running scripts?
Tell them what you want! It's not my problem that you constantly ignore the fact that the "-c" setting is default on TK4- anyway. All the discussions here are only for users having a requirement for "classical" consoles. All others, particularly "newbies", should be perfectly happy with TK4-'s "-c" default.
If newbie or advanced users want to fight with various kinds of MVS consoles, I
would be happy to assist
Good! Then do so and don’t try to convince them from using "-c". They might have reasons why they want to do it the hard way!
but I see no reason to add battles for newbie users
that may only want to play with CoBOL.
Exactly! Just for that reason the default configuration of TK4- uses "-c". Heureka, you finally got it!


JÃŒrgen
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-10 20:22:59 UTC
Permalink
In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:
- - - beginning snipped - - -
Post by ***@id.ethz.ch [hercules-390]
Heureka, you finally got it!
JÃŒrgen
Thank you.

I will be using TK4-minus as soon as I get time.
That could take weeks.
dwegscheid@sbcglobal.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-11 18:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I'm just responding to your claiming that telnet has issues and
Should all newbie users also be required to rewrite MVS to not
need a IPL console connected and in session before MVS is
IPLed because of the missing "-c". Real systems did not require
an operator to power-up, plug in a hardware console, ready it,
and then press the blue button. Emulated systems should not
be required to do that either. Hercules doesn't require it.
If a system required a console on real iron, that moving it to emulated hardware shouldn't remove that requirement. My real MVT 21.7 required a console, MVS 3.8j does. I wouldn't expect that to go away just because I moved it from a 360/75 or 370/168 to Hercules.

If someone wants a system that doesn't require a console, then they should get an OS that doesn't require a console. TK4- seems to fit that bill.

The missing "-c" isn't that big of a deal. If someone has enough smarts to want to run something like MVS, then understanding that you need a functioning console seems a reasonable requirement?
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-02-12 00:18:34 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
dwegscheid@sbcglobal.net [hercules-390]
2016-02-12 18:23:06 UTC
Permalink
Apologies, then; I must have misinterpreted something along the way. We appear to be in violent agreements that the way to go is just use 3215-c.

Again, sorry for muddying the water.
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 14:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Jaeger ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
I have been playing with the MVS 3.7 starter under Hercules
(as well as a P390, without success on the latter). For a
console, it has a 3215 at 001F.
I can make it work from the Windows brain-damaged telnet
client (though carriage returns don't seem to work right)
and from Linux. However, if I try it from Putty, Hercules
disconnects right after the TTYPE terminal type negotiation.
I have tried various terminal times, without any joy.
Anyone have any thoughts, or is this just a bug?
It was a bug. Hercules's telnet support at the time was not RFC compliant.

The problem has now recently been fixed in Hercules 4.0 Hyperion however:

http://hercules-390.github.io/html/


How long it will be before the fix appears in Roger's 3.x spinhawk series is unknown.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
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