Discussion:
OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
(too old to reply)
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 03:15:38 UTC
Permalink
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know
what the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license by IBM) on new-ish hardware?

Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I
believe the OS's (VM sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't
know is if there are other "gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs
since the HW supports 31-bit addressing. It's not clear to me that
24-bit OSs would work or if there's an issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 03:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I
believe the OS's (VM sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't
know is if there are other "gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs
since the HW supports 31-bit addressing. It's not clear to me that
24-bit OSs would work or if there's an issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
I don't know the proper answer to your question,
but I do know that between S/370 and S/390
the I/O instructions changed, so you can't run
an S/370 OS on an S/390 machine and
vice-versa. There may be an "IO emulator"
out there though, that allows the above to
happen.

BFN. Paul.
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 03:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I
believe the OS's (VM sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't
know is if there are other "gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs
since the HW supports 31-bit addressing. It's not clear to me that
24-bit OSs would work or if there's an issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
I don't know the proper answer to your question,
but I do know that between S/370 and S/390
the I/O instructions changed, so you can't run
an S/370 OS on an S/390 machine and
vice-versa. There may be an "IO emulator"
out there though, that allows the above to
happen.
Ah, OK. The changed I/O instructions is not something I had considered.

Thanks.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 08:52:20 UTC
Permalink
NO, for many reasons:-

1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380

You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys isn't an issue.

Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know what
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free from license
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an alternative OS than
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the OS's (VM
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if there are other
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or if there's an
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 13:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Dave is largely correct.
About the time the P/390 idea evolved into the MP families, in this
case your MP3K the company (IBM) made it impossible for us to run a
370 based OS on it without major efforts.

However..... Was any OS supplied with it? Once I had an idea, that of
running VM/370 second level on something running on such a platform. I
never did figure out that idea.

However a P/390 could be confused into running VM/370 and its necessaries.

It is of course the storage arrangements that are extremely difficult.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
NO, for many reasons:-
1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380
You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys isn't an issue.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know what
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free from license
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an alternative OS than
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the OS's (VM
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if there are other
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or if there's an
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 19:28:43 UTC
Permalink
To answer a number of questions:
- Yes, it came with z/OS V1R5 installed. Since I have no backup or
restore media for it, I'm a bit paranoid about screwing something up.
So far my efforts so far have been to figure out how to get into some
administrative account and to get it onto my network.
- I'm not really interested in running Linux on it. My interest in the
various old machines I have is to run older S/W on them and understand
the principles behind the OS's and how they were driven by the
underlying H/W. In particular, I was hoping to be able to run some
version of VM on it (especially since the MP3000 supports LPARs it would
be cool to run z/OS and VM on it at the same time...which is another
interesting aspect of the IBM mainframe architecture that I'd like to
explore).

I've read the documentation indicating that 370 mode wasn't supported
and I was trying to understand what exactly was meant by that since it's
not described anywhere. I guess I could dig through the appropriate
POPs but I'm being a bit lazy. ;-)

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Dave is largely correct.
About the time the P/390 idea evolved into the MP families, in this
case your MP3K the company (IBM) made it impossible for us to run a
370 based OS on it without major efforts.
However..... Was any OS supplied with it? Once I had an idea, that of
running VM/370 second level on something running on such a platform. I
never did figure out that idea.
However a P/390 could be confused into running VM/370 and its necessaries.
It is of course the storage arrangements that are extremely difficult.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
NO, for many reasons:-
1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't
support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380
You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys
isn't an issue.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone
know what
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the
OS's (VM
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if there
are other
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or if
there's an
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 20:01:49 UTC
Permalink
If you have a tape drive it should be possible to back up the zVM disks using standalone DDR



 Or to AWS tape but I think the issue there is the OS/2 doesn’t have any network support and only limited disk space.



Dave



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 07 August 2015 20:29
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW





To answer a number of questions:
- Yes, it came with z/OS V1R5 installed. Since I have no backup or restore media for it, I'm a bit paranoid about screwing something up. So far my efforts so far have been to figure out how to get into some administrative account and to get it onto my network.
- I'm not really interested in running Linux on it. My interest in the various old machines I have is to run older S/W on them and understand the principles behind the OS's and how they were driven by the underlying H/W. In particular, I was hoping to be able to run some version of VM on it (especially since the MP3000 supports LPARs it would be cool to run z/OS and VM on it at the same time...which is another interesting aspect of the IBM mainframe architecture that I'd like to explore).

I've read the documentation indicating that 370 mode wasn't supported and I was trying to understand what exactly was meant by that since it's not described anywhere. I guess I could dig through the appropriate POPs but I'm being a bit lazy. ;-)

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy

On 8/7/15 6:32 AM, Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> [hercules-390] wrote:



Hello!
Dave is largely correct.
About the time the P/390 idea evolved into the MP families, in this
case your MP3K the company (IBM) made it impossible for us to run a
370 based OS on it without major efforts.

However..... Was any OS supplied with it? Once I had an idea, that of
running VM/370 second level on something running on such a platform. I
never did figure out that idea.

However a P/390 could be confused into running VM/370 and its necessaries.

It is of course the storage arrangements that are extremely difficult.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
NO, for many reasons:-
1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380
You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys isn't an issue.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know what
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free from license
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an alternative OS than
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the OS's (VM
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if there are other
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or if there's an
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 20:25:08 UTC
Permalink
All I have on the system is the 4mm tape drive and it doesn't have a
large capacity. I don't recall if it is accessible from z/OS. I do
know that the CD-ROM drive isn't which requires a two step installation
(first unzip files from the CD on to the volumes emulated by OS/2 and
then creating/copying the volumes over to the native disks). All of the
current volumes are defined as 3390-3.

TTFN - Guy
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you have a tape drive it should be possible to back up the zVM
disks using standalone DDR


 Or to AWS tape but I think the issue there is the OS/2 doesn’t have
any network support and only limited disk space.
Dave
*Sent:* 07 August 2015 20:29
*Subject:* Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
- Yes, it came with z/OS V1R5 installed. Since I have no backup or
restore media for it, I'm a bit paranoid about screwing something up.
So far my efforts so far have been to figure out how to get into some
administrative account and to get it onto my network.
- I'm not really interested in running Linux on it. My interest in
the various old machines I have is to run older S/W on them and
understand the principles behind the OS's and how they were driven by
the underlying H/W. In particular, I was hoping to be able to run
some version of VM on it (especially since the MP3000 supports LPARs
it would be cool to run z/OS and VM on it at the same time...which is
another interesting aspect of the IBM mainframe architecture that I'd
like to explore).
I've read the documentation indicating that 370 mode wasn't supported
and I was trying to understand what exactly was meant by that since
it's not described anywhere. I guess I could dig through the
appropriate POPs but I'm being a bit lazy. ;-)
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
Hello!
Dave is largely correct.
About the time the P/390 idea evolved into the MP families, in this
case your MP3K the company (IBM) made it impossible for us to run a
370 based OS on it without major efforts.
However..... Was any OS supplied with it? Once I had an idea, that of
running VM/370 second level on something running on such a platform. I
never did figure out that idea.
However a P/390 could be confused into running VM/370 and its necessaries.
It is of course the storage arrangements that are extremely difficult.
-----
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
NO, for many reasons:-
1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't
support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380
You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys
isn't an issue.
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does
anyone know what
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the
OS's (VM
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if
there are other
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW
supports 31-bit
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or
if there's an
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:18:36 UTC
Permalink
All I have on the system is the 4mm tape drive and it doesn't have a large
capacity. I don't recall if it is accessible from z/OS.
It is. That is, it can be configured to be seen by z/OS as a 3480, and
possibly a 3420, though I'm less sure about that.

Tony H.
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 22:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
All I have on the system is the 4mm tape drive
and it doesn't have a large capacity. I don't recall
if it is accessible from z/OS.
It is. That is, it can be configured to be seen by z/OS as
a 3480, and possibly a 3420, though I'm less sure about that.
If the host can see and use the tape drive, then Hercules (and thus the guest) should be able to too.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 21:30:47 UTC
Permalink
I think the latest version of zVM that’s supported and will IPL on an MP3000 is zVM4.4.
Unfortunately the freely downloadable ones won’t run..

From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 07 August 2015 20:29
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW



To answer a number of questions:
- Yes, it came with z/OS V1R5 installed. Since I have no backup or restore media for it, I'm a bit paranoid about screwing something up. So far my efforts so far have been to figure out how to get into some administrative account and to get it onto my network.
- I'm not really interested in running Linux on it. My interest in the various old machines I have is to run older S/W on them and understand the principles behind the OS's and how they were driven by the underlying H/W. In particular, I was hoping to be able to run some version of VM on it (especially since the MP3000 supports LPARs it would be cool to run z/OS and VM on it at the same time...which is another interesting aspect of the IBM mainframe architecture that I'd like to explore).

I've read the documentation indicating that 370 mode wasn't supported and I was trying to understand what exactly was meant by that since it's not described anywhere. I guess I could dig through the appropriate POPs but I'm being a bit lazy. ;-)

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy
On 8/7/15 6:32 AM, Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com> [hercules-390] wrote:

Hello!
Dave is largely correct.
About the time the P/390 idea evolved into the MP families, in this
case your MP3K the company (IBM) made it impossible for us to run a
370 based OS on it without major efforts.

However..... Was any OS supplied with it? Once I had an idea, that of
running VM/370 second level on something running on such a platform. I
never did figure out that idea.

However a P/390 could be confused into running VM/370 and its necessaries.

It is of course the storage arrangements that are extremely difficult.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
NO, for many reasons:-
1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the machine doesn't support 370 mode so you can't even IPL
2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380
You could run a Linux on it.
I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage keys isn't an issue.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know what
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free from license
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an alternative OS than
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I believe the OS's (VM
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't know is if there are other
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs would work or if there's an
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 14:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
You could run a Linux on it.
And it may be possible to run PDOS/390
on it too. I'm not sure if PDOS/390 supports
3380 disks though. I've only ever tried
3390.

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 14:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
You could run a Linux on it.
And it may be possible to run PDOS/390
on it too.
MUSIC/SP will probably work too.

BFN. Paul.
Robert Duncan dosvsoperator@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 14:15:51 UTC
Permalink
"You could run a Linux on it"

I was thinking along these lines, myself.

Linux-capable IBM Mainframe>Linux>Hercules>vintage OS. e.g. DOS/360 on an IBM System/z.

That should be possible.

Yours truly,

Robert S. Duncan

Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/7/15, 'Dave G4UGM' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 7, 2015, 8:52 AM


 









NO, for many reasons:-



1 - According to the manual "G326-3081-02" the
machine doesn't support 370 mode so you can't even
IPL

2- VM/370 CMS can't use 3380



You could run a Linux on it.

I believe the VM/370 has been patched so the 2k/4k storage
keys isn't an issue.



Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 07 August 2015 04:16
Subject: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on
new(er) HW
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules
question. Does anyone know what
the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes
(ie free from license
by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd
like to run an alternative OS than
what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I
believe the OS's (VM
sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't
know is if there are other
"gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs
since the HW supports 31-bit
addressing. It's not clear to me that 24-bit OSs
would work or if there's an
issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
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Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 14:38:32 UTC
Permalink
A guy did a test on his z/800.
He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.
He didn't have any disk to install it on.
You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1 (possibly 2) processor(s).

The control bits for S/370 I/O channels have not been reused.
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules question. Does anyone know
what the implications/effort would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd like to run an
alternative OS than what I have on it. It does emulate 3380 disks and I
believe the OS's (VM sixpack and Turnkey) support 3380s. What I don't
know is if there are other "gotchas" in trying to run these older OSs
since the HW supports 31-bit addressing. It's not clear to me that
24-bit OSs would work or if there's an issue with 2K vs 4K storage keys.
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 15:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A guy did a test on his z/800.
He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.
He didn't have any disk to install it on.
You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1 (possibly 2) processor(s).
I find that hard to believe. MVS related systems have the bad habit of
trying to rewrite format 1 DSCBs to record the access date, making it
impossible to run with write-only disks. At best he might have been able
to IPL, but not do anything useful with it.

My ca. 2002 Turnkey CD came with such a run options, and when I tried
it, it failed miserably. At a minimum it needs a writable medium for
shadow files.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 23:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A guy did a test on his z/800.
He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.
He didn't have any disk to install it on.
You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1
(possibly 2) processor(s).
I find that hard to believe. MVS related systems have the
bad habit of trying to rewrite format 1 DSCBs to record the
access date, making it impossible to run with write-only disks.
At best he might have been able to IPL, but not do anything
useful with it.
My ca. 2002 Turnkey CD came with such a run options,
Was it the "fakewrite" option?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
and when I tried it, it failed miserably. At a minimum it
needs a writable medium for shadow files.
I would agree. The "fakewrite" dasd option has always bothered me. While I've personally never tried it (and I apologize to Greg for saying so), I have always thought it was a stupid idea.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 03:14:15 UTC
Permalink
I am thinking it started IPLing but didn't come all the way up. Tried
searching for his post on a hercules group but nothing showed up. My
oldest saved message about it is 3 years ago.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 6:11 PM, ''Fish' (David B. Trout)'
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A guy did a test on his z/800.
He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.
He didn't have any disk to install it on.
You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1
(possibly 2) processor(s).
I find that hard to believe. MVS related systems have the
bad habit of trying to rewrite format 1 DSCBs to record the
access date, making it impossible to run with write-only disks.
At best he might have been able to IPL, but not do anything
useful with it.
My ca. 2002 Turnkey CD came with such a run options,
Was it the "fakewrite" option?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
and when I tried it, it failed miserably. At a minimum it
needs a writable medium for shadow files.
I would agree. The "fakewrite" dasd option has always bothered me. While I've personally never tried it (and I apologize to Greg for saying so), I have always thought it was a stupid idea.
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 15:07:27 UTC
Permalink
In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote :
- - - beginning snipped - - -
Post by '\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I would agree. The "fakewrite" dasd option has always bothered me.
While I've personally never tried it (and I apologize to Greg for saying so),
I have always thought it was a stupid idea.
- - - ending snipped - - -

FakeWrite is weird but is used for SHRDPORT for MVS type systems.

If I share a Hercules disk, it will be a copy of a Read-Write disk
marked as Read-Only for the person reading it. I also use a separate
Hercules instance to share.
( there is no local-RW but Remote-RO option )

The remote MVS will try to update the last-referenced-date in the VTOC
for each access to each data set with many appropriate "disk is read-only"
error messages on the console. i.e. Hercules with MVS will get command
rejects on every attempted write.

Weird but useful FakeWrite gets around the issue.
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 19:22:50 UTC
Permalink
somitcw wrote:

[...]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
The remote MVS will try to update the last-referenced-date
in the VTOC for each access to each data set ...
(Doh!) Of course. I forgot all about remote dasd. Thank you.

So I guess the remote dasd situation is the ONLY situation then that "fakewrite" might be useful?

I'm curious, does anyone else use it for any other purpose besides remote dasd?
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 03:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
impossible to run with write-only disks.
I think you meant read-only.

BFN. Paul.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 16:25:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
A guy did a test on his z/800.
He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.
He didn't have any disk to install it on.
You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1 (possibly 2) processor(s).
The control bits for S/370 I/O channels have not been reused.
How the IPL could actually proceed at all suggests there is more to this
story.

Nevertheless, this does not entirely surprise me. For some time I have
theorized that the original 370 I/O instructions were preserved in the
hardware when the channel subsystem was created. Even though the
operating system no longer used them, the code that runs in the channel
subsystem still has to initiate I/O with real devices. The code in the
channel subsystem is nothing more than normal assembler code. When
parallel channels are being supported, the old SIO and friends are
probably used. In the very early days, the channel subsystem was just
an I/O dedicated 370 CPU. In this case, SIO was definitely there.

We tend to forget the real structural change that occurred with 370/XA.
Its precursor was the 370 AP configuration. In the 370 AP configuration
the main CPU ran an operating system doing I/O and running user programs
and the other CPU, the attached processor, only supported non-I/O
activity by user programs.

The 370/XA configuration, upended this design. The main CPU that ran
user programs and I/O activity became a CPU dedicated to I/O and all
user programs moved to one or more attached processors that did no real
I/O.

The illusion of I/O was preserved by means of I/O-like instructions for
communication with the main processor doing the I/O, the channel
subsystem (SSCH and friends). Under the covers external interruptions
provided communication between the main (now channel subsystem) and the
attached processor (now where the OS and user programs ran). The
special external interruption was reflected in the the attached
processor as an I/O interruption using the I/O old and new PSW's, but
the real I/O interruption triggered by channel attached devices happened
in the channel subsystem.

This design allowed the channel subsystem eventually becoming an LPAR
and on new systems more than one LPAR. And of course today there are
more software layers so some of this that was originally hardware based
is now emulated in software. New undocumented I/O instructions or
variants on the old ones likely exist for support of ESCON, FICON and
OSA's by the channel subsystem. Things like TCW's probably are used to
support I/O for 64-bit physical memory. This is of course speculation
on my part, having never seen any documentation on how these proprietary
features actually work.

Harold Grovesteen
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
For some time I have
theorized that the original 370 I/O instructions were preserved in the
hardware when the channel subsystem was created. Even though the
operating system no longer used them, the code that runs in the channel
subsystem still has to initiate I/O with real devices. The code in the
channel subsystem is nothing more than normal assembler code.
I don't think so.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
When parallel channels are being supported, the old SIO and friends are
probably used. In the very early days, the channel subsystem was just
an I/O dedicated 370 CPU. In this case, SIO was definitely there.
I really don't think so. Lynn Wheeler has posted many (many!) times
over on IBM-MAIN about how the 370/158 processor was used as the
channel processor on the 303x machines. As used on the /158, that
single processor provided both S/370 instruction set processor and
channel code using the same underlying hardware core. But as used on
the 303x machines, the /370 microcode was not loaded, leaving only the
channel microcode. I don't know what this microcode looked like, but
it was certainly not 370 code.

Actually there is another of his posts on this yesterday (2015-08-09
at 23:44 EDT), containing this snippet: "...the issue is that for all
models of 303x, they used external channel director ... which was
actually a 158 engine with the slow integrated channel microcode and
w/o the 370 microcode. "
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
We tend to forget the real structural change that occurred with 370/XA.
Its precursor was the 370 AP configuration. In the 370 AP configuration
the main CPU ran an operating system doing I/O and running user programs
and the other CPU, the attached processor, only supported non-I/O
activity by user programs.
One can just as easily see this more simply (and as it was marketed) -
just like a 370 MP, but one CPU had no channels. A 168 AP could have
been produced that appeared architecturally identical to the software.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
The 370/XA configuration, upended this design. The main CPU that ran
user programs and I/O activity became a CPU dedicated to I/O and all
user programs moved to one or more attached processors that did no real I/O.
The illusion of I/O was preserved by means of I/O-like instructions for
communication with the main processor doing the I/O, the channel
subsystem (SSCH and friends). Under the covers external interruptions
provided communication between the main (now channel subsystem) and the
attached processor (now where the OS and user programs ran). The
special external interruption was reflected in the the attached
processor as an I/O interruption using the I/O old and new PSW's, but
the real I/O interruption triggered by channel attached devices happened
in the channel subsystem.
You may be right to some extent, but I am dubious about whether it
really worked this way. One reason is that the early XA machines could
run in S/370 mode, which suggests an implausible amount of parallel
hardware and software.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
This design allowed the channel subsystem eventually becoming an LPAR
and on new systems more than one LPAR. And of course today there are
more software layers so some of this that was originally hardware based
is now emulated in software.
My recollection from the time is that LPAR (aka PR/SM) was (and is) a
highly customized version of VM. On some hardware that VM was barely
concealed; on others it is better hidden, but still there.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
New undocumented I/O instructions or
variants on the old ones likely exist for support of ESCON, FICON and
OSA's by the channel subsystem. Things like TCW's probably are used to
support I/O for 64-bit physical memory.
I think your earlier claim about everything being "normal assembler
code" is much more likely to be correct on current processors, where
there is no microcode, but there is "millicode", which runs a superset
of the publicly documented zArch instruction set.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
This is of course speculation on my part, having never seen any documentation on how these proprietary
features actually work.
And doubtless we never will. :-(

Tony H.
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 20:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Might you be confusing the service processor with LPAR? The 3090 had a
VM system (a 9370) as a service processor (HMC in latterday parlance);
that sure leaked CP READ at times.

LPAR is a different kettle of fish. It has a dispatcher that dispatches
the LPAR via SIE, so in that respect it is VM, but it used to have a
slew of special instructions for its use. Most, if not all, of these
instructions have now been "surfaced".

Once in a while a feature or other leaked into the principles of
operation manual from the unexpurgated architecture definition.
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
My recollection from the time is that LPAR (aka PR/SM) was (and is) a
highly customized version of VM. On some hardware that VM was barely
concealed; on others it is better hidden, but still there.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 20:35:38 UTC
Permalink
I seem to remember that the XA architecture was deliberately designed to be non-virtualizable. Pretty sure they wanted to kill VM. Any way as the PSW can be read by a problem mode program, XA machines can't be virtualized using software alone. So in order to allow VM on XA has to use microcode virtualization. zVM builds a control block and uses the SIE instruction, to run Virtual Machines. So given the hardware/microcode is pretty much capable of running virtual machines, LPARs seem to be a no brainer.

Dave
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 August 2015 21:23
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
Might you be confusing the service processor with LPAR? The 3090 had a VM
system (a 9370) as a service processor (HMC in latterday parlance); that sure
leaked CP READ at times.
LPAR is a different kettle of fish. It has a dispatcher that dispatches the LPAR
via SIE, so in that respect it is VM, but it used to have a slew of special
instructions for its use. Most, if not all, of these instructions have now been
"surfaced".
Once in a while a feature or other leaked into the principles of operation
manual from the unexpurgated architecture definition.
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
My recollection from the time is that LPAR (aka PR/SM) was (and is) a
highly customized version of VM. On some hardware that VM was barely
concealed; on others it is better hidden, but still there.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 16:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Might you be confusing the service processor with LPAR? The 3090 had a
VM system (a 9370) as a service processor (HMC in latterday parlance);
that sure leaked CP READ at times.
It's quite possible, but I don't think so.
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
LPAR is a different kettle of fish. It has a dispatcher that dispatches
the LPAR via SIE, so in that respect it is VM, but it used to have a
slew of special instructions for its use. Most, if not all, of these
instructions have now been "surfaced".
I understood that the LPAR code that issues the SIE was a stripped
down VM. If not, that says that the whole LPAR
dispatcher/scheduler/etc. was written from scratch, or at most
borrowed some bits from CP.

Another observation is that on the Multiprise 3000, which has a G5
CPU, and an Intel PC, there are lots of PC (OS/2) files containing
REXX source, IOS3270 panels (all in EBCDIC), and S390 machine code. If
these are part of the service processor (which shows an OS/2 style GUI
exclusively, and has nothing that looks 3270 based), then what
processor do they run on? There is no separate P390 or the like in
that box. Of course there is REXX for OS/2, but there are separate
REXX programs in ASCII to run on the Intel CPU. On the other hand if
the mainframe-looking files are part of the LPAR support, they would
run on the G5. Though in that case I don't know where the IOS3270
panels would ever show up.
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Once in a while a feature or other leaked into the principles of
operation manual from the unexpurgated architecture definition.
I'd be interested in seeing any of these... Were they quietly
corrected (i.e. removed), or was it considered too late? I know a few
features have leaked by appearing first in Linux source code, and only
later in the Principles of Operation. But that's a very different
path.

Tony H.
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 16:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Another observation is that on the Multiprise 3000, which has a G5
CPU, and an Intel PC, there are lots of PC (OS/2) files containing
REXX source, IOS3270 panels (all in EBCDIC), and S390 machine code. If
these are part of the service processor (which shows an OS/2 style GUI
exclusively, and has nothing that looks 3270 based), then what
processor do they run on? There is no separate P390 or the like in
that box. Of course there is REXX for OS/2, but there are separate
REXX programs in ASCII to run on the Intel CPU. On the other hand if
the mainframe-looking files are part of the LPAR support, they would
run on the G5. Though in that case I don't know where the IOS3270
panels would ever show up.
Actually on the P30, H30, H50 models there are two G5 CPUs (on the
H70 there are 3). One (or two in the case of the H70) are for running
the OS and application code. That is they appear as the P/390 from a
S/W perspective. The 2nd G5 is not visible to SW and does all of the
channel emulation.

I haven't poked around a lot (yet) on the OS/2 side of things to see
what all is there.

TTFN - Guy
Laddie Hanus laddiehanus@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 15:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Maybe under hercules under linux

but
1. MVS 3.8 starts with a BC mode PSW, will program check the IPL on an ESA system
2. The z hardware does not understand CCKD files so how could it read MVSRES
3. CR2 Which is the channel masks under 370 is the DUCT table in ESA and z

Unless you have proof you need to quit posting this.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/7/15, Mike Schwab ***@gmail.com [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 7, 2015, 8:38 AM



A guy did a test on his z/800.

He was able to start MVS 3.8J from the Turnkey 3 CD-ROM.

He didn't have any disk to install it on.

You would be limited to 16MB of real memory and 1 (possibly
2) processor(s).



The control bits for S/370 I/O channels have not been
reused.



On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 10:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
I realize that this isn't exactly a Hercules
question. Does anyone know
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
what the implications/effort would be to run the older
OSes (ie free
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
from license by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
Specifically, I have a Multiprise 3000 that I'd
like to run an
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
alternative OS than what I have on it. It does emulate
3380 disks and I
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
believe the OS's (VM sixpack and Turnkey) support
3380s. What I don't
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
know is if there are other "gotchas" in
trying to run these older OSs
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
since the HW supports 31-bit addressing. It's not
clear to me that
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
24-bit OSs would work or if there's an issue with
2K vs 4K storage keys.
Post by Guy Sotomayor ***@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
Thanks.
TTFN - Guy
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
--

Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA

Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
'mstram .' mikestramba@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-07 17:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Laddie Hanus ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Maybe under hercules under linux
Heh, I "ran" (no real "speed tests") hercules under linux under
hercules running on linux running on an AWS virtual linux (which was
running under "Amazon-Xen) running on (presumably) *real* hardware.

So hercules under linux on an Mp3000 should be no problem ;)
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 03:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know what the implications/effort
would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
I have a question too.

If someone had real hardware, including
card reader, tape drive, 3390 disks and
3270 terminals, then I believe they have
the ability to IPL from card reader, tape
and disk drive.

What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?

If someone already has an OS installed
on their system, then they can probably
do an IND$FILE from the 3270 terminal
to upload a new operating system like
PDOS/390.

If someone doesn't have an OS installed
on their system, and they only have a
PC, and IPLing from a 3270 is not
available, then what options are left?
Is it possible to cut the wires going to
a tape drive and connect those wires
to an RS232 port or USB port and make
the PC emulate a tape drive?

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 04:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
do an IND$FILE from the 3270 terminal
to upload a new operating system like
PDOS/390.
Sorry, I meant to say "A PC with a 3270
coax connection". I know we have the
the technology to get a PC to emulate
a 3270, but I don't know what is required
to get a PC to emulate a tape drive, as
I have never seen that.

BFN. Paul.
Guy Sotomayor ggs@shiresoft.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 05:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
If someone doesn't have an OS installed
on their system, and they only have a
PC, and IPLing from a 3270 is not
available, then what options are left?
Is it possible to cut the wires going to
a tape drive and connect those wires
to an RS232 port or USB port and make
the PC emulate a tape drive?
The "wires" going to the tape drive are a bit more complicated than
I think you realize. The devices themselves are usually connected
to a control unit which is then connected to the CPU through a
channel interface such as "bus & tag" or ESCON.

The interface between the device and control unit are usually
specific to the device/control unit pair.

On the other hand, systems like the MP3000 have a PC embedded
within the system and the PC is directly connected to the PCI bus
that the S/390 CPU uses to communicate with some of the devices
(such as the internal SSA RAID-5 disks...which are used to emulate
3390 type drives). The S/W on the PC (under OS/2) emulates some
of the slower devices (such as card readers and punches).

TTFN - Guy
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 08:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?
I'm not sure it's feasible, but haven't given it real thought. My first
impression is that a READ command (as issued by an IPL request) results
in the buffer being read into memory. On a 3270, the first six bytes are
an AID (there is a code for an attention/PF/Enter key not pressed), the
cursor address, followed by field data. Additionally you would need some
way of introducing non-display values into the buffer.

For a TN3270 client, it would be possible to add an option to load IPL
text from disk, and transmit that on the next READ command.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
If someone doesn't have an OS installed
on their system, and they only have a
PC, and IPLing from a 3270 is not
available, then what options are left?
Is it possible to cut the wires going to
a tape drive and connect those wires
to an RS232 port or USB port and make
the PC emulate a tape drive?
While IBM has designed the I/O system to be consistent across devices,
not all devices respond the same way. In particular, terminals either
use special codes that require translation, don't offer a full 0-255
range of values, or have other special requirements (e.g., need a poll
command) to respond to a plain READ. You could provide special software
on the PC to respond as needed, but using a virtual reader or tape is
easier.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Steve Smith fski12@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 10:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Does anyone know what the implications/effort
would be to run the older OSes (ie free
from license by IBM) on new-ish hardware?
I have a question too.
If someone had real hardware, including
card reader, tape drive, 3390 disks and
3270 terminals, then I believe they have
the ability to IPL from card reader, tape
and disk drive.
What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?
You would need to do a binary read from a 3270 in order to read the IPL CCW
and PSW. This would require divine intervention.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
If someone already has an OS installed
on their system, then they can probably
do an IND$FILE from the 3270 terminal
to upload a new operating system like
PDOS/390.
If someone doesn't have an OS installed
on their system, and they only have a
PC, and IPLing from a 3270 is not
available, then what options are left?
Is it possible to cut the wires going to
a tape drive and connect those wires
to an RS232 port or USB port and make
the PC emulate a tape drive?
You can't install an OS on bare tin; You need a driver system. IBM provides
this on tape. You would need. a supported tape drive; Real or emulated, mit
doesn't matter. But you can't just go around snipping wires from a USB drive
and attach it to a mainframe.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 10:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?
You would need to do a binary read from a
3270 in order to read the IPL CCW
and PSW. This would require divine intervention.
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 11:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection,
I'm also assuming that there is a
real tape drive, but no emulated
tape drive (I also assume it isn't
possible to arbitrarily add an
emulated tape drive).

I'm also assuming that there is no
appropriate physical tape to IPL.

As far as I know, that was the
situation when I started working
on MVS/XA. ie if you downloaded
some software from a bulletin
board, so that it on your PC,
then the only way to get it from
the PC to the mainframe was
using IND$FILE on a PC with
a mainframe coax connection.

I'm just wondering what would
happen if I was in that same
hardware situation again, but
the disks had been wiped clean
and there was no IPLable tape,
but I did have PDOS/390 at hand
and wished to install it.

BFN. Paul.
Joe Monk joemonk64@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 17:59:21 UTC
Permalink
"'Im just wondering what would
happen if I was in that same
hardware situation again, but
the disks had been wiped clean
and there was no IPLable tape,
but I did have PDOS/390 at hand
and wished to install it."

"You would need to do a binary read from a 3270 in order to read the IPL
CCW
and PSW. This would require divine intervention."

From the IBM 370 PrincOps...

Initial program loading (IPL) is provided for the initiation of processing
when the contents of main storage or of the PSW are not suitable for
processing. Initial program loading is initiated manually by selecting an
input device with the load-unit-address switches and then pressing the load
key. Pressing the load key causes a system-clear or an initial-program
reset operation to be performed on the CPU, as determined by the setting of
the enable-system-clear key. Subsequently, a read operation is initiated
from the selected input device. The read operation is performed as if a
START I/O instruction were executed that specified the device addressed by
the load-unit-address switches and used a channel address word ( CAW)
containing a protection key of zero and a channel command word (CCW)
address of 0. The address set up on the load-unit-address switches provides
the 12 loworder bits of the I/O address; zeros are implied for the
high-order address bits. Although the location of the first CCW to be
executed is specified as 0, the first CCW actually executed is an implied
CCW, containing, in effect, a read command with the modifier bits set to
zero, a data address of 0, a byte count of 24, the chain-command flag on,
the suppress-incorrect-Iength-indication flag on, the chain-data flag off,
the skip flag off, and the program-controlled-interruption (PCI) flag off.
The CCW fetched, as a result of command chaining, from location 8 or 16, as
well as any subsequent CCW in the IPL sequence, is interpreted the same as
a CCW in any I/O operation, with the exception that the PCI flag is
ignored. When the I/O device provides channel-end status for the last
operation of the IPL chain and no exceptional conditions are detected in
the operation, a new PSW is obtained from locations 0-7. When this PSW
specifies the BC mode, the I/O address that was used for the IPL operation
is stored at locations 2 and 3; when the EC mode is specified, the I/O
address is stored at locations 186-187, and zeros are stored at location
185. The load indicator is turned off, and CPU operation proceeds under the
control of the new PSW.

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/princOps/GA22-7000-4_370_Principles_Of_Operation_Sep75.pdf
- Page 54

Joe
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection,
I'm also assuming that there is a
real tape drive, but no emulated
tape drive (I also assume it isn't
possible to arbitrarily add an
emulated tape drive).
I'm also assuming that there is no
appropriate physical tape to IPL.
As far as I know, that was the
situation when I started working
on MVS/XA. ie if you downloaded
some software from a bulletin
board, so that it on your PC,
then the only way to get it from
the PC to the mainframe was
using IND$FILE on a PC with
a mainframe coax connection.
I'm just wondering what would
happen if I was in that same
hardware situation again, but
the disks had been wiped clean
and there was no IPLable tape,
but I did have PDOS/390 at hand
and wished to install it.
BFN. Paul.
Steve Smith fski12@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 18:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Steve Smith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?
You would need to do a binary read from a
3270 in order to read the IPL CCW
and PSW. This would require divine intervention.
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
I look forward to seeing your code. It's simple, so I will give you till
next weekend!
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 03:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Smith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Steve Smith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What changes would need to be made so
that it is possible to IPL from a 3270
terminal too?
You would need to do a binary read from a
3270 in order to read the IPL CCW
and PSW. This would require divine intervention.
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
I look forward to seeing your code. It's
simple, so I will give you till next weekend!
Above I said WHY isn't it a simple matter
of programming. I didn't say that it WAS
a simple matter of programming.

Your reply of basically "just trust me, it's
impossible" is similar to a lot of answers
I was getting when I was asking what
needed to be changed in Hercules so
that I could run 31-bit programs on a
24-bit system. I was told it was impossible
and stupid, but the reasons I were
given did not ring true to me. And indeed,
10 lines of Hercules code change later,
the "just trust me" argument lost out.

I don't know whether the "IPL from coax"
is in the same boat or not. That's why I
am asking (politely), not TELLING. I am
not even sure if it is possible to direct
the IBM hardware to IPL from the coax
PC or not. That's why I'm ASKING.

Note that I do not have access to real
hardware, a real coax PC, nor do I have
the interface specs to send and receive
data via coax. So no, THIS time I can't
write it by next weekend and then declare
"looks like another S/380 line of bullshit!".

BFN. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-08 20:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
You need to read the 3270 Data Stream manual, or any of the programming
manuals for 327x. The only way to get clean binary data across would be
to intercept a (predicted) IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data. In which case you could just as easily use a
supported virtual card or tape reader.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 02:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
You need to read the 3270 Data Stream
manual, or any of the programming
manuals for 327x.
I am roughly familiar with the 3270 data
stream, but why is that relevant? We
don't require a 3270 data stream, we
require an IPL stream.
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
The only way to get clean binary data across
would be to intercept a (predicted)
The PC can be set in advance to be in
"IPL mode".
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
In which case you could just as easily use a
supported virtual card or tape reader.
But what if I don't have a virtual card or
tape reader? When I started systems
programming work circa 1987, as far
as I know we only had real tape drives,
real 3270s, no card reader, and a PC
with a coax connection. I'm just
interested to know whether the PC
with coax connection could be put
into an unusual "IPL mode" and do
the same job a tape drive would
normally do.

BFN. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 06:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
You're going around in circles. I've repeatedly stated that the PC would
need to respond to that READ, and subsequent chained ones, with the
binary data. If the PC is using a 3270 card, you would need to modify
(or intercept) the firmware. If it's running software only, you'd need
to modify that by adding an option for IPL mode.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 08:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
You're going around in circles. I've repeatedly
stated that the PC would need to respond to
that READ, and subsequent chained ones, with the
binary data. If the PC is using a 3270 card,
you would need to modify (or intercept) the
firmware. If it's running software only, you'd need
to modify that by adding an option for IPL mode.
Ok, so you think the hardware is fine,
and should be IPLable if the vendor
provides an appropriate interface?
Cool.

I have another question.

When IPLing from a card reader, it
appears that 80-byte object code is
required. Object code contains things
other than code. The first byte is
x'02' or something like that.

1. Who strips off the object code
markup?

2. I assume you can IPL only a
single object deck. Does that mean
you need to structure your
stand-alone program so that it is
a single object deck? ie rather than
producing a normal load module
(from multiple source files and
object files) and then somehow
converting that into a single object
deck.

BFN. Paul.
Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 09:30:52 UTC
Permalink
Paul,

( I can answer one of your questions- I am proud)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
When IPLing from a card reader, it
appears that 80-byte object code is
required. Object code contains things
other than code. The first byte is
x'02' or something like that.

The first 24 bytes are defined by the hardware -
8 bytes IPL PSW
8 bytes first CCW
8 bytes second CCW

the objectcode executed is (for the 3 card iPL deck)

right at location 24 (x'18') in first card and (for the above) then
in the two following cards--- I could err on the content of the first
card - I would have to check a 3 card ipl deck to see that (and
correct my stmt)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code
markup?

what markup- there is not supposed to be any - but the re are tools
that take a plain x'02' TXT deck and transform it to IPLABLE.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2. I assume you can IPL only a
single object deck. Does that mean
you need to structure your
stand-alone program so that it is
a single object deck? ie rather than
producing a normal load module
(from multiple source files and
object files) and then somehow
converting that into a single object
deck.

With the right utility you should be able to transform any load module
(even one of the latest flavour with discontinuous code) to an IPL-able
piece of code (must have provisions for all the OS services we are so
used to).
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 11:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi Martin.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
When IPLing from a card reader, it
appears that 80-byte object code is
required. Object code contains things
other than code. The first byte is
x'02' or something like that.
The first 24 bytes are defined by the hardware -
8 bytes IPL PSW
8 bytes first CCW
8 bytes second CCW
the objectcode executed is (for the 3 card iPL deck)
right at location 24 (x'18') in first card and (for the above) then
in the two following cards--- I could err on the content of the first
card - I would have to check a 3 card ipl deck to see that (and
correct my stmt)
So it's not normal object code then. The
records don't start with x'02' and have
line numbers? It's all just straight code
(after the CCWs)?
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code markup?
what markup- there is not supposed to be any
- but the re are tools
that take a plain x'02' TXT deck and transform
it to IPLABLE.
I see.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2. I assume you can IPL only a
single object deck. Does that mean
you need to structure your
stand-alone program so that it is
a single object deck? ie rather than
producing a normal load module
(from multiple source files and
object files) and then somehow
converting that into a single object
deck.
With the right utility you should be able
to transform any load module (even
one of the latest flavour with discontinuous
code) to an IPL-able piece of code (must
have provisions for all the OS services we
are so used to).
I know how to create IPL-able (from
disk) code. I just need to build it normally
and then run it through the "loadzero"
utility that I wrote.

What I don't know is how to convert
the IPL-able disk code into 80-byte
records that can be read from a
tape drive. Prior to today I was under
the impression that the code needed
to be in standard object-code format,
ie I would need a tool to add x'02' to
the beginning of records and add
line numbers to the end etc.

BFN. Paul.




//PLOAD EXEC PGM=LOADZERO,PARM='dd:in dd:out'
//STEPLIB DD DSN=MVSSRC.OZPD.LINKLIB,DISP=SHR
//IN DD DSN=&&COPY2,DISP=(OLD,DELETE)
//OUT DD DSN=&&HEX(PLOAD),DISP=(OLD,PASS)
//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*
//SYSTERM DD SYSOUT=*
//SYSIN DD DUMMY
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 17:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Let me explain the IPL sequence.

When the IPL function is initiated, the CPU generates a CCW at the
apparent address of 0 for read IPL (x'02' opcode) for 24 bytes read to
address 0 with command chaining and suppress incorrect length.

The actual block can be any size. For a card reader it is 80, but there
are interesting variations.

On FBA, the device transfers 512 bytes to the channel, so the first CCW
of the IPL text is another read IPL that reads the entire sector (CKD
could also have used this trick, but apparently nobody thought of it at
the time).

As for tape, the blocks can be up to 64K; and even longer with data
chaining.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
What I don't know is how to convert
the IPL-able disk code into 80-byte
records that can be read from a
tape drive.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 15:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
You're going around in circles. I've repeatedly
stated that the PC would need to respond to
that READ, and subsequent chained ones, with the
binary data. If the PC is using a 3270 card,
you would need to modify (or intercept) the
firmware. If it's running software only, you'd need
to modify that by adding an option for IPL mode.
Ok, so you think the hardware is fine,
and should be IPLable if the vendor
provides an appropriate interface?
Cool.
I have another question.
When IPLing from a card reader, it
appears that 80-byte object code is
required. Object code contains things
other than code. The first byte is
x'02' or something like that.
1. Who strips off the object code
markup?
2. I assume you can IPL only a
single object deck. Does that mean
you need to structure your
stand-alone program so that it is
a single object deck? ie rather than
producing a normal load module
(from multiple source files and
object files) and then somehow
converting that into a single object
deck.
BFN. Paul.
Unless the IPLCCW's and more of the channel program read in by these
CCW's does not read in the entire program, what this chain reads is of
necessity a boot loader. The boot loader must understand the I/O
requirements of the device from which it is reading and the format of
the records containing the object program. The 3-card loader,
understands the format of a standard object deck although any set of
records that has the usual TXT and END formatted records will work.

If this is about distributing PDOS in an easy to use format, why not
simply create a disk image with it already installed? By simply
downloading the disk image and adding it to a Hercules configuration a
user is ready to go. No real "installation" in the usual sense of the
word is required.

Or is this about allowing PDOS to be installed in an environment other
than Hercules?

Harold
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 04:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
If this is about distributing PDOS in
an easy to use format, why not
simply create a disk image with it
already installed?
Yes, that's what I already do.
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Or is this about allowing PDOS to
be installed in an environment other
than Hercules?
Yes, the question about real hardware
(see subject line) made me wonder what
paths were available to get PDOS off the
internet and onto a real 3390 disk.

BFN. Paul.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 15:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
You're going around in circles. I've repeatedly
stated that the PC would need to respond to
that READ, and subsequent chained ones, with the
binary data. If the PC is using a 3270 card,
you would need to modify (or intercept) the
firmware. If it's running software only, you'd need
to modify that by adding an option for IPL mode.
Ok, so you think the hardware is fine,
and should be IPLable if the vendor
provides an appropriate interface?
Cool.
In those days, there was more to consider than the PC. The coax
attached PC was not attached to the mainframe, it was attached to a 3270
control unit. The interface between the control unit and the PC is the
key.

The 3270 control unit interpreted a X'02' channel command as a 3270 Read
Buffer command. How this was communicated to the PC over the coax and
what the PC software would need to do would be the issue. This
presumes the control unit would actually accept raw binary data of any
bit combination on the interface. There were modes where raw binary
data could be communicated. But this was dependent upon the control
unit configuration and its vintage. Some could do this, and some not.

I think the real answer is "maybe."

Today, where everything is software, that is an entirely different
matter. Just about anything is possible. But I believe we were talking
about then (some unspecified point in the past) as opposed to today.

Harold
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 18:05:29 UTC
Permalink
As far as IPL from a 3270 device, the answer is a resounding NO. The
device will generate an attention ID as the first byte for any inbound
transmission and chances of that being the mask byte you require in the
PSW (x'00') are nil.

If you then say that you can fudge it in the PC, it seems to my
pedestrian mind that you don't have a 3270 after all.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
IPL read and have the PC software respond
with unmutilated data.
Yes, this is what I had in mind.
You're going around in circles. I've repeatedly
stated that the PC would need to respond to
that READ, and subsequent chained ones, with the
binary data. If the PC is using a 3270 card,
you would need to modify (or intercept) the
firmware. If it's running software only, you'd need
to modify that by adding an option for IPL mode.
Ok, so you think the hardware is fine,
and should be IPLable if the vendor
provides an appropriate interface?
Cool.
In those days, there was more to consider than the PC. The coax
attached PC was not attached to the mainframe, it was attached to a 3270
control unit. The interface between the control unit and the PC is the
key.
The 3270 control unit interpreted a X'02' channel command as a 3270 Read
Buffer command. How this was communicated to the PC over the coax and
what the PC software would need to do would be the issue. This
presumes the control unit would actually accept raw binary data of any
bit combination on the interface. There were modes where raw binary
data could be communicated. But this was dependent upon the control
unit configuration and its vintage. Some could do this, and some not.
I think the real answer is "maybe."
Today, where everything is software, that is an entirely different
matter. Just about anything is possible. But I believe we were talking
about then (some unspecified point in the past) as opposed to today.
Harold
Ivan Warren ivan@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 20:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
As far as IPL from a 3270 device, the answer is a resounding NO. The
device will generate an attention ID as the first byte for any inbound
transmission and chances of that being the mask byte you require in the
PSW (x'00') are nil.
If you then say that you can fudge it in the PC, it seems to my
pedestrian mind that you don't have a 3270 after all.
And why would one want to IPL from a terminal ?

(Or wasn't the question more like IPLing a system with a 3270 as a
system console ?)

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 04:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you then say that you can fudge it in the PC, it seems to my
pedestrian mind that you don't have a 3270 after all.
And why would one want to IPL from a terminal ?
Just a thought experiment for a bare
tin system in existence circa 1987,
with an IBM operating system
available on a PC and with no
obvious way to get it loaded onto
a 3390 disk.

BFN. Paul.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 09:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Just a thought experiment for a bare
tin system in existence circa 1987,
with an IBM operating system
available on a PC and with no
obvious way to get it loaded onto
a 3390 disk.
So effectively you're trying to boot from an
RJE workstation with attached card reader.
I'm not sure what an RJE workstation
is, and I'm not sure whether it should
be emulating a card reader or a tape
drive.
That doesn't seem too unreasonable, but the next
stage would presumably need a mag tape.
I think it would be nice if the coax PC
was able to do the entire IPL and
copying of data onto a 3390 disk
instead of needing a physical tape
to be made.

BFN. Paul.
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 09:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Splendid. Can we return to reality now, please.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I think it would be nice if the coax PC
was able to do the entire IPL and
copying of data onto a 3390 disk
instead of needing a physical tape
to be made.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 11:03:16 UTC
Permalink
I was going to say "no chance of booting from a 3270 controller"
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 August 2015 10:38
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [hercules-390] Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
Splendid. Can we return to reality now, please.
I think it would be nice if the coax PC was able to do the entire IPL
and copying of data onto a 3390 disk instead of needing a physical
tape to be made.
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 11:02:00 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 August 2015 10:15
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [hercules-390] Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er)
HW
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
If you then say that you can fudge it in the PC, it seems to my
pedestrian mind that you don't have a 3270 after all.
And why would one want to IPL from a terminal ?
Just a thought experiment for a bare
tin system in existence circa 1987,
with an IBM operating system
available on a PC and with no
obvious way to get it loaded onto
a 3390 disk.
The MP3000 will boot from an emulated tape or disk stored on the service
element (i.e. the OS/2 PC) console.
I understand these files are in a similar format to Hercules disks, but with
no support for compression.
So an MP3000 can be booted from a non-compressed 3390 created under
Hercules.

It can also be booted from AWS format tape files stored on the OS/2 PC
service element.

SCSI Tape drives can also be attached.

I believe that later "Z" boxes can be booted from the internal DVD.
So effectively you're trying to boot from an RJE workstation with attached
card reader. That doesn't seem too unreasonable, but the next stage would
presumably need a mag tape.
--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk
[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or
colleagues]
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Greg Price greg.price@optusnet.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 14:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
And why would one want to IPL from a terminal ?
Hey, if you've got the talent to type in an operating system on the fly,
flaunt it!

:)

Greg P.


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somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 17:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Price ***@optusnet.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Ivan Warren ***@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
And why would one want to IPL from a terminal ?
Hey, if you've got the talent to type in an operating system on the fly,
flaunt it!
:)
Greg P.
Using a terminal to alter memory to execute code has been used by
many people many times. Not a real IPL but gets something running.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 23:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
When IPLing from a card reader, it
appears that 80-byte object code is
required. Object code contains things
other than code. The first byte is
x'02' or something like that.
Object decks produces by the 360/370 era assemblers begin with X'02',
followed by one of ESD, SYM, TXT, and END.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code
markup?
The standard 3-card loader, distributed with OS/360, contains code to
handle object text.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2. I assume you can IPL only a
single object deck. Does that mean
you need to structure your
stand-alone program so that it is
a single object deck? ie rather than
producing a normal load module
(from multiple source files and
object files) and then somehow
converting that into a single object
deck.
True, but relatively easy to change. The current code uses the xEND card
to obtain the execution start address, and terminate loading. If you
have multiple decks, you could write your own loader to use the first
xEND address as a start address, but continue reading and processing
until you hit an end-file on the input device. One limitation is that
address constants appearing in the data are not relocated. Note that
IBCDASDI IN MVSSRC.SYM201.F11 has a six card loader that could be
disassembled to show you what's going on.

You could add additional code to process the xESD data, and add
relocation processing. Also note that most assemblies use a CSECT card,
but for stand-alone use, START could be used with the load address,
making the listing correspond to actual loaded address in a dump.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 04:04:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code markup?
The standard 3-card loader, distributed
with OS/360, contains code to
handle object text.
Thanks. One more question. While I
expect an IPL from a card reader to
operate on 80-byte records, is it
normal/necessary when IPLing from
a tape to use F/80/80?

I would have thought a tape could
have a RECFM=U block of 24-bytes
followed by another RECFM=U file
of much larger block sizes, not
requiring to be a multiple of 80 and
not having object code markup
(x'02' in first byte etc).

I know for sure that the PDOS/390
disk-based OS doesn't operate on
(and strip) object code.

Thanks. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 06:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Thanks. One more question. While I
expect an IPL from a card reader to
operate on 80-byte records, is it
normal/necessary when IPLing from
a tape to use F/80/80?
The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC). That CCW
is normally set to read a second record, and that usually has more CCWs,
and may contain text. But the second record is too short, thus at least
one more record is required.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I would have thought a tape could
have a RECFM=U block of 24-bytes
followed by another RECFM=U file
of much larger block sizes, not
requiring to be a multiple of 80 and
not having object code markup
(x'02' in first byte etc).
Only the first record is constrained by hardware design. The disk
resident loaders don't use object format, and are designed around disk
capacity (generally record 1 and 2 on track 0 are the bootstrap records,
with record 4 containing the desired text)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I know for sure that the PDOS/390
disk-based OS doesn't operate on
(and strip) object code.
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

I looked at the three card loader. I skipped extraneous blanks and
sequence information:

BCPSW DC A(0,LOADER)
CCW 2,LOADER,X'60',72
CCW 2,LOADER+72,X'20',72
SPACE 1
USING IPLBOOT,R0 FAKE TO KEEP ASSEMBLER HAPPY
ORG IPLBOOT+84 ARBITRARY START ADDRESS
LOADER LH R1,2 LOAD IPL UNIT ADDRESS
LA R2,DATA0C0
ST R2,72 SET CAW
LM R2,R4,DATA0C8
LOAD064 TIO 0(R2) READY?
BNZ LOAD064 NOT YET
LOAD06C SIO 0(R2) READ
LOAD070 TIO 0(R2) COMPLETE?
BNZ LOAD070 NOT YET
TM 68,X'03' HAVE CHANNEL END AND DEVICE END?
LOAD07C BC 5,LOAD07C NOT YET ***LOOKS WRONG?***
TM 69,X'FF' ANY PROBLEMS?
LOAD084 BC 5,LOAD084 YES ***LOOKD WRONG?***
L R2,DATA0CC
CLI DATA0CA,C'X' TEXT RECORD?
BE LOAD0A2 YES
CLI DATA0CA,C'N' END RECORD?
BNE LOAD06C
SPACE 1
CLR R2,R4
BER R3
BR R2
LOAD0A2 CLR R2,R3
BC 10,LOAD0AA
LR R3,R2
LOAD0AA LH R5,DATA0D2
BCTR R5,0
EX R5,LOAD0B8
B LOAD06C
LOAD0B8 MVC 0(*-*,R2),DATA0D8
DATA0C0 CCW 2,DATA0C8,X'20',72
DATA0C8 DS CL72 INPUT RECORD(S)
DATA0CA EQU DATA0C8+2,1,C'C' MIDDLE OF ESD, TXT, END
DATA0CC EQU DATA0C8+4,4,C'A'
DATA0D2 EQU DATA0C8+10,2,C'H' TEXT LENGTH
DATA0D8 EQU DATA0C8+16,56,C'X'
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Thanks. One more question. While I
expect an IPL from a card reader to
operate on 80-byte records, is it
normal/necessary when IPLing from
a tape to use F/80/80?
The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC).
Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?
Or would any new length greater than 8 overlay needed old PSW fields?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
That CCW is normally set to read a second record, and that
usually has more CCWs, and may contain text. But the second
record is too short, thus at least one more record is required.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I would have thought a tape could
have a RECFM=U block of 24-bytes
followed by another RECFM=U file
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
of much larger block sizes, not
requiring to be a multiple of 80 and
not having object code markup
(x'02' in first byte etc).
Only the first record is constrained by hardware design.
The disk resident loaders don't use object format, and are
designed around disk capacity (generally record 1 and 2 on
track 0 are the bootstrap records, with record 4 containing
the desired text)
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I know for sure that the PDOS/390
disk-based OS doesn't operate on
(and strip) object code.
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
I looked at the three card loader. I skipped extraneous blanks
BCPSW DC A(0,LOADER)
CCW 2,LOADER,X'60',72
CCW 2,LOADER+72,X'20',72
TIC is normally spelt 8 instead of 2 so I assume
that you are instead reading the second 80 byte record
of the IPL text?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
SPACE 1
USING IPLBOOT,R0 FAKE TO KEEP ASSEMBLER HAPPY
I assume that you have a missing label for IPLBOOT at
address zero?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
ORG IPLBOOT+84 ARBITRARY START ADDRESS
LOADER LH R1,2 LOAD IPL UNIT ADDRESS
LA R2,DATA0C0
ST R2,72 SET CAW
LM R2,R4,DATA0C8
LOAD064 TIO 0(R2) READY?
BNZ LOAD064 NOT YET
LOAD06C SIO 0(R2) READ
LOAD070 TIO 0(R2) COMPLETE?
BNZ LOAD070 NOT YET
TM 68,X'03' HAVE CHANNEL END AND DEVICE END?
LOAD07C BC 5,LOAD07C NOT YET ***LOOKS WRONG?***
One instruction loop if UC or UE come in?
"BC 5" means branch if either ones or mixed.
"BC 7" for BNZ might be more common?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
TM 69,X'FF' ANY PROBLEMS?
LOAD084 BC 5,LOAD084 YES ***LOOKD WRONG?***
One instruction loop if other issues?
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
L R2,DATA0CC
CLI DATA0CA,C'X' TEXT RECORD?
BE LOAD0A2 YES
CLI DATA0CA,C'N' END RECORD?
BNE LOAD06C
SPACE 1
CLR R2,R4
BER R3
BR R2
LOAD0A2 CLR R2,R3
BC 10,LOAD0AA
LR R3,R2
LOAD0AA LH R5,DATA0D2
BCTR R5,0
EX R5,LOAD0B8
B LOAD06C
LOAD0B8 MVC 0(*-*,R2),DATA0D8
DATA0C0 CCW 2,DATA0C8,X'20',72
DATA0C8 DS CL72 INPUT RECORD(S)
DATA0CA EQU DATA0C8+2,1,C'C' MIDDLE OF ESD, TXT, END
DATA0CC EQU DATA0C8+4,4,C'A'
DATA0D2 EQU DATA0C8+10,2,C'H' TEXT LENGTH
DATA0D8 EQU DATA0C8+16,56,C'X'
More descriptive labels might be nice.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 06:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?
Who says it isn't? Note that IBM's three card loader starts with two
CCWs after the PSW.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Or would any new length greater than 8 overlay needed old PSW fields?
Only location 2 (IPL device number), and 0-7 (new PSW) are referenced,
so you can overlay anything that works for you.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I assume that you have a missing label for IPLBOOT at
address zero?
I just extracted the relevant instructions; there's a lot more stuff
missing (e.g., the register equates, etc.). The purpose was to show Paul
sample IPL code, not produce an assembly that he couldn't use without
munging the output into the IPL cards.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
TM 68,X'03' HAVE CHANNEL END AND DEVICE END?
LOAD07C BC 5,LOAD07C NOT YET ***LOOKS WRONG?***
One instruction loop if UC or UE come in?
"BC 5" means branch if either ones or mixed.
"BC 7" for BNZ might be more common?
Complain to the IBM 360 team - I didn't write the code.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
TM 69,X'FF' ANY PROBLEMS?
LOAD084 BC 5,LOAD084 YES ***LOOKD WRONG?***
One instruction loop if other issues?
Sure beats an LPSW with the wait bit if you're IBM and leasing machines
whose CPU meters start running with the first IPL.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
More descriptive labels might be nice.
I'm not rewriting the disassembler to please everyone.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 14:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?
Who says it isn't? Note that IBM's three card loader starts with two
CCWs after the PSW.
- - - remainder snipped - - -

Thanks, I'll ignore the poster that claimed:

"The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC)."
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 17:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?
Who says it isn't? Note that IBM's three card loader starts with two
CCWs after the PSW.
- - - remainder snipped - - -
"The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC)."
The first record does have to be at least 24 bytes.

The PSW + CCW + TIC is what you will typically find, but your ingenuity
in building the IPL media (and hence the content of the records brought
into storage from the IPL medium) can change any of what is typically
found.

The other requirement for a successful IPL is that at the end of the
successful CCW chain, a valid 64-bit PSW is present at absolute
addresses 0-7. Otherwise you will likely see what a fine mess you have
gotten yourself into. Read up on the stop, load and run CPU states.

Harold
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 20:12:51 UTC
Permalink
- - - snipped - - -

First statement:
"The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC)."

First question:
"Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?"

First answer:
"Who says it isn't? Note that IBM's three card loader starts with two
CCWs after the PSW."

Different person's answer:
"The first record does have to be at least 24 bytes.".

I assUme that I will have to create an AWS tape to IPL to test on
Hercules. No way to test on big iron.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 21:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
- - - snipped - - -
"The first record must be at least 24 bytes (PSW + CCW + TIC)."
"Why wouldn't 16 bytes with the new read CCW overlaying the TIC
location be allowed?"
You are absolutely correct. I wondered who would catch this when I
wrote the above. I was trying not to confuse with too much detail. The
initial implied X'02' command is issued as if the SILI and CC flags are
enabled. So, yes, 16 bytes is the minimum to have at least one CCW to
read in more information. The CCW is required because the command chain
flag will force it to be used. If it is not a valid CCW the I/O will
fail and the PSW will not get loaded. The implied CCW is presumed to be
located at absolute 0, hence the CCW at absolute 8 will be fetched. The
CCW could be a X'03', a control no operation, but the practical reasons
for this are limited.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
"Who says it isn't? Note that IBM's three card loader starts with two
CCWs after the PSW."
"The first record does have to be at least 24 bytes.".
I assUme that I will have to create an AWS tape to IPL to test on
Hercules. No way to test on big iron.
Is this to test how IPL works, or are you planning to actually build an
IPL capable, I assume, tape for other reasons?

Harold
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-12 16:33:32 UTC
Permalink
In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, <***@...> wrote:
- - - beginning snipped - - -
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Is this to test how IPL works, or are you planning to actually build an
IPL capable, I assume, tape for other reasons?
Harold
Just curious as to possible IPL variations.

For Hercules, the first IPL record being only 16 bytes worked.
I don't have big iron. If newer equipment or VM, my BC mode
could be changed to EC mode and no I/O is done by the program.
It would then run in an XA or ESAME system.:

HHC01603I t+
HHC02229I Instruction tracing on
HHC01603I t+480
HHC02204I CCW trace for 0:0480 set to on
HHC01603I ipl 480
HHC01315I 0:0480 CHAN: ccw 02000000 60000018
HHC01312I 0:0480 CHAN: stat 0C00, count 0008=>
- - 00040000 00000100 02000010 40000008 ............ ...
HHC01315I 0:0480 CHAN: ccw 02000010 40000008
HHC01312I 0:0480 CHAN: stat 0C00, count 0000=>02000100 00000010
HHC01315I 0:0480 CHAN: ccw 02000100 00000010
HHC01312I 0:0480 CHAN: stat 0C00, count 0000=>
- - 82000108 00000000 00020000 0000DEAD b..............[
CP00: PSW=0004048000000100 INST=82000108 LPSW 264(0) load_program_status_word
CP00: R:00000108:K:06=00020000 0000DEAD 00000000 00000000 .......[........
CP00: GR00=00000001 GR01=0084FB20 GR02=C0019320 GR03=000513D0
CP00: GR04=00BD6BE0 GR05=00000C7C GR06=50012676 GR07=00FD6000
CP00: GR08=0084E000 GR09=00019D70 GR10=0000109C GR11=9005A422
CP00: GR12=5005A41A GR13=00000000 GR14=5005A456 GR15=00000000
HHC00800I Processor CP00: loaded wait state PSW 00020000 8000DEAD
HHC00809I Processor CP00: disabled wait state 00020000 8000DEAD

Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 14:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code markup?
The standard 3-card loader, distributed
with OS/360, contains code to
handle object text.
Thanks. One more question. While I
expect an IPL from a card reader to
operate on 80-byte records, is it
normal/necessary when IPLing from
a tape to use F/80/80?
Normal? That depends upon how the tape was created. If it is was
sourced from an existing deck of cards, then, yes, that would be normal.

Necessary? Absolutely not. With physical record support of 64K blocks,
it can load a lot of code without a boot loader. These are of course
raw binary blocks of data.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I would have thought a tape could
have a RECFM=U block of 24-bytes
followed by another RECFM=U file
of much larger block sizes,
"Another RECFM=U file" no. The TM separating the files will cause the
IPL process to fail. But additional records of a different size
following the 24-byte record, absolutely. See the response to
"necessary" above.

Assuming a tape, the 24-byte record and all follow-on records that load
the program to which IPL control is passed must not have TM's separating
records. What follows on the tape after the program gets control is
really a function of what the loaded program does with the tape. There
could be more records of the same file. There could be a TM. Then you
are in the realm of simply a matter of programming.

As others have said there are ways to build a tape with standard
utilities that will initialize and restore a disk. In that case the
tape content has to match what those programs expect and in the sequence
the programs would access the tape.

The real issue is that you do not want any I/O status for each completed
CCW to cause the channel program to cease unexpectedly or with a
non-CE,DE status. This applies to all devices. If that happens,
control will not pass to the loaded data via the IPL PSW. Which is of
course the goal of the process.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
not
requiring to be a multiple of 80 and
not having object code markup
(x'02' in first byte etc).
I know for sure that the PDOS/390
disk-based OS doesn't operate on
(and strip) object code.
Thanks. Paul.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
'Tommy Sprinkle' mvs@tommysprinkle.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 14:15:05 UTC
Permalink
For anyone who may be interested I do have a tutorial that covers the IPL process from both card and dasd.

www.txxos.com <http://www.txxos.com>

-Tommy
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 15:54:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2015-08-10 at 09:15 -0500, 'Tommy Sprinkle'
Post by 'Tommy Sprinkle' ***@tommysprinkle.com [hercules-390]
For anyone who may be interested I do have a tutorial that covers the
IPL process from both card and dasd.
www.txxos.com
-Tommy
For those less familiar with the physical aspects of device I/O, tapes
work the same as cards except you are not limited to physical records of
80-bytes.

Harold
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
For those less familiar with the physical aspects of device I/O, tapes
work the same as cards except you are not limited to physical records of 80-bytes.
Not all IBM card readers were limited to 80 byte records either...

Tony H.
Vince Coen vbcoen@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Seem to recall 96 columns in the 60/70's or was that for another m/f
company.

Coming to think about it - I also recall shorter some where near 50 cc.

American Express in Brighton - similar era?

Another contractor position for some months.

Damn memory :)

Vince
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
For those less familiar with the physical aspects of device I/O, tapes
work the same as cards except you are not limited to physical
records of 80-bytes.
Not all IBM card readers were limited to 80 byte records either...
Tony H.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Dave G4UGM' dave.g4ugm@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:34:22 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 10 August 2015 19:28
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [hercules-390] Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
Seem to recall 96 columns in the 60/70's or was that for another m/f
company.
Not many in Europe, they were basically three rows of paper tape on card.
So more characters and shorter than a traditional card
Coming to think about it - I also recall shorter some where near 50 cc.
American Express in Brighton - similar era?
I think AMEX in Brighton had Honeywell H3200 at one point in time. These would read shorted cards. These were older than 80-column cards..
Another contractor position for some months.
Damn memory :)
Vince
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
For those less familiar with the physical aspects of device I/O,
tapes work the same as cards except you are not limited to physical
records of 80-bytes.
Not all IBM card readers were limited to 80 byte records either...
Tony H.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
somitcw@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 18:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Seem to recall 96 columns in the 60/70's or was that for
another m/f company.
IBM used 96 column cards on some mid-range equipment.
Each card had three sections with 32 bytes in each.

I also defined a channel-attached System/7 as a card
reader/punch ?1442?. Any length CCW worked.
Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Coming to think about it - I also recall shorter some where
near 50 cc.
Yes, one of our offices near me had I believe a ?2540?
modified to read short cards of 52 bytes. They were from
customers paying their bills.
Post by Vince Coen ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
American Express in Brighton - similar era?
Another contractor position for some months.
Damn memory :)
Vince
- - - old notes snipped - - -

I have the same type of memory that you do.
More holes in it than a punch card.
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 20:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Make that 51 columns. Anyone stateside paying utility bills in the
sixties knew all about those cards.

The first 51 columns were prepunched; the rest made up your receipt.
There was some speculation as to whether one could alter the amount paid
by gluing in bits and punching the cards.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Yes, one of our offices near me had I believe a ?2540?
modified to read short cards of 52 bytes. They were from
customers paying their bills.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 03:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Tommy Sprinkle' ***@tommysprinkle.com [hercules-390]
For anyone who may be interested I do have
a tutorial that covers the IPL process from
both card and dasd.
www.txxos.com
Thanks Tommy. I went through that and it
cleared up a lot of things.

One thing I had a bit of trouble with was this:

When we read an END card we simply issue a LPSW to load the new PSW from location zero. It is the responsibility of the program we just loaded to include a new PSW at location zero.


Perhaps you can add "the address on
the END card is ignored".


Also you have this:

When we encounter an END card we branch to the location contained in the entry point address


Perhaps instead of "entry point address" you
can say "location 0, NOT the address
specified on the END card"?


BFN. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 06:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
When we read an END card we simply issue a LPSW to load the new PSW from location zero. It is the responsibility of the program we just loaded to include a new PSW at location zero.
Perhaps you can add "the address on
the END card is ignored".
When we encounter an END card we branch to the location contained in the entry point address
Perhaps instead of "entry point address" you
can say "location 0, NOT the address
specified on the END card"?
Note that this is a two-stage process. The basic IPL issues an LPSW to
location zero. This is normally the PSW on the first record; however,
the loaded program may replace this at will. In the case where an object
deck is read (the second stage), the loading program could issue an
arbitrary LPSW after it gets control the first time.

Also note the gotcha - some assemblers, when the user doesn't specify
anything on the END statement, leave the entry address as three blanks.
The obvious thing to do would be to use the load address of the first
TXT card.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
'John P. Hartmann' jphartmann@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 08:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Loading a PSW is utterly redundant. The PSW is already loaded by the
IPL sequence. And not all loaders leave locations 0-7 intact.

Oldtimers will remember that 360/30 needed an engineering change to IPL
the OS/360 release 6 starter system.
When we read an END card we simply issue a LPSW to load the new PSW
from location zero. It is the responsibility of the program we just
loaded to include a new PSW at location zero.
Perhaps you can add "the address on
the END card is ignored".
When we encounter an END card we branch to the location contained in
the entry point address
Perhaps instead of "entry point address" you
can say "location 0, NOT the address
specified on the END card"?
Note that this is a two-stage process. The basic IPL issues an LPSW to
location zero. This is normally the PSW on the first record; however,
the loaded program may replace this at will. In the case where an object
deck is read (the second stage), the loading program could issue an
arbitrary LPSW after it gets control the first time.
Also note the gotcha - some assemblers, when the user doesn't specify
anything on the END statement, leave the entry address as three blanks.
The obvious thing to do would be to use the load address of the first
TXT card.
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 14:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Loading a PSW is utterly redundant. The PSW is already loaded by the
IPL sequence. And not all loaders leave locations 0-7 intact.
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. The first LPSW gives control to the
IPL program, which then reads an object deck. Transfer to the desired
object code can be accomplished by a branch, or another LPSW.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 07:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Hello Paul, (this is private),

I am not dead- just a little silent - someone way more knowledgeable
(Gerhard) has taken over- but i am still reading

;-)
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 07:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Well - not
--
Martin

Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 13:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
And which one were you addressing. Remember the silly nature of
e-mail. Some lists insist on the "reply to all" function being set
regardless.

Besides whatever issue you were thinking of it was settled a week ago.
-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
Well - not
--
Martin
Pi_cap_CPU - all you ever need around MWLC/SCRT/CMT in z/VSE
more at http://www.picapcpu.de
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
'Tommy Sprinkle' mvs@tommysprinkle.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-11 13:48:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Tommy Sprinkle' ***@tommysprinkle.com [hercules-390]
For anyone who may be interested I do have
a tutorial that covers the IPL process from
both card and dasd.
www.txxos.com <http://www.txxos.com>
Thanks Tommy. I went through that and it
cleared up a lot of things.
When we read an END card we simply issue a LPSW to load the new PSW from location zero. It is the responsibility of the program we just loaded to include a new PSW at location zero.
Perhaps you can add "the address on
the END card is ignored".
When we encounter an END card we branch to the location contained in the entry point address
Perhaps instead of "entry point address" you
can say "location 0, NOT the address
specified on the END card"?
When I get a few minutes I will take a look and see if I can make it read a bit better. In the meantime I believe you should be able to post comments directly on the page if you want to add to the value of the website. It is also worth noting that there are always many different ways to approach the same problem. My way may or may not be the same as what someone else has done and in many cases there is very probably a lot of room for improvement. Thanks for the comments.

-Tommy
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 15:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
1. Who strips off the object code markup?
I would add that the Stand-Alone Tool Kit (SATK) that I have been
working on is dedicated to writing programs that can be IPL'd and
creating the media from which to IPL them. It even has an assembler
with improvements in the works.

https://github.com/s390guy/SATK

Harold Grovesteen
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 03:33:30 UTC
Permalink
On a completely different note - real hardware,
I have some questions ...
Post by Steve Smith ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
You can't install an OS on bare tin; You
need a driver system. IBM provides
this on tape.
Assuming the destination is bare tin with
real tape drives, and I have an MVS system
able to produce to produce real tapes,
what would I need to ship in order to
install PDOS/390 on the target system?

I'm guessing I need 3 NL tapes:

1. A stand-alone initialization to initialize
a 3390 disk.

2. A stand-alone restore that takes a
DFDSS dump and restores to the 3390.

3. PDOS/390 in DFDSS dump format.

Is this normal/typical? And what was
done in the MVS 3.8j days which I
think predates DFDSS? Is there
another utility that can dump a disk
to tape?

Thanks. Paul.
Gerhard Postpischil gerhardp@charter.net [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 08:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Is this normal/typical? And what was
done in the MVS 3.8j days which I
think predates DFDSS? Is there
another utility that can dump a disk
to tape?
The standard system tapes had the DASD initialization, then the restore
program, then the restore data, in consecutive files on the tape. So you
could IPL, hit attention on the console, type the formatting commands,
the hit IPL again, type the commands and wait for the restore to finish.
At some point the NL tapes were replaced by SL, and you had to hit IPL
additional times to skip the header and trailer label files.

There should be equivalent 3390 programs available, but I've never used
them. It should be possible to take the 370 versions and adapt them to
write a 3390 and use subsystem I/O instructions, and to automate the
entire process, requiring only an attention from the desired console
after the IPL. IBCDASDI is in MVSSRC.SYM201.F11; the IBCDMPRS
dump/restore is in MVSSRC.SYM201.F10.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
Robert Duncan dosvsoperator@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 02:05:33 UTC
Permalink
There's something strange about the topic title: Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW

Isn't that just about all we do in these groups?

We're talking up to fifty-year-old OSes here! The Golden age of computing!

Yours truly,

Robert S. Duncan

Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 8/8/15, Gerhard Postpischil ***@charter.net [hercules-390] <hercules-***@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Bulk] [hercules-390] Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, August 8, 2015, 3:52 PM


 
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
You need to read the 3270 Data Stream manual, or any of the
programming

manuals for 327x. The only way to get clean binary data
across would be

to intercept a (predicted) IPL read and have the PC software
respond

with unmutilated data. In which case you could just as
easily use a

supported virtual card or tape reader.



Gerhard Postpischil

Bradford, VT











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s skip@monobath.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-09 02:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Whatever you say. :)
Post by Robert Duncan ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
There's something strange about the topic title: Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
Isn't that just about all we do in these groups?
We're talking up to fifty-year-old OSes here! The Golden age of computing!
Yours truly,
Robert S. Duncan
Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!
--------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [hercules-390] Re: OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW
Date: Saturday, August 8, 2015, 3:52 PM
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming the 3270 in question is a PC
with a coax connection, why isn't it a
simple matter of programming to respond
with anything that a tape drive could
respond with?
You need to read the 3270 Data Stream manual, or any of the
programming
manuals for 327x. The only way to get clean binary data
across would be
to intercept a (predicted) IPL read and have the PC software
respond
with unmutilated data. In which case you could just as
easily use a
supported virtual card or tape reader.
Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT
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' Richard Pinion' rpinion@netscape.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 20:28:50 UTC
Permalink
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2">Which one of the two PCM's had MDF? &nbsp;And I'm asking, not saying, did MDF predate PR/SM?</FONT><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Richard and Vickie Pinion</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">--- hercules-***@yahoogroups.com wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">From: "'John P. Hartmann' ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]" &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 22:22:43 &#43;0200</SPAN><BR><BR>









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<P>Might you be confusing the service processor with LPAR? The 3090 had a <BR>
VM system (a 9370) as a service processor (HMC in latterday parlance); <BR>
that sure leaked CP READ at times.<BR>
<BR>
LPAR is a different kettle of fish. It has a dispatcher that dispatches <BR>
the LPAR via SIE, so in that respect it is VM, but it used to have a <BR>
slew of special instructions for its use. Most, if not all, of these <BR>
instructions have now been "surfaced".<BR>
<BR>
Once in a while a feature or other leaked into the principles of <BR>
operation manual from the unexpurgated architecture definition.<BR>
<BR>
On 08/10/2015 08:43 PM, Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390] <BR>
wrote:<BR>
&gt; My recollection from the time is that LPAR (aka PR/SM) was (and is) a<BR>
&gt; highly customized version of VM. On some hardware that VM was barely<BR>
&gt; concealed; on others it is better hidden, but still there.<BR>
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<!-- end group email -->
'Mark L. Gaubatz' mgaubatz@groupgw.com [hercules-390]
2015-08-10 21:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Amdahl, and yes with a predecessor product. MDF was the 2nd generation product.



Mark L. Gaubatz



From: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 1:29 PM
To: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] OT: Running older OSes on new(er) HW





Which one of the two PCM's had MDF? And I'm asking, not saying, did MDF predate PR/SM?

Richard and Vickie Pinion
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