Discussion:
Current step-by-step to obtain and install z/Linux (SUSE or RH) on Herc please?
(too old to reply)
pjfarley3@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 04:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,


It's been quite a while since I last posted here or even since I ran a copy of Herc (maybe V3.03 or so), and probably longer since I assisted on the TK4 project. I have a private (non-commercial) project that would greatly benefit from having an instance of z/Linux available with which to experiment.


I have searched around but can't seem to find a current step-by-step to set up and run an instance of z/Linux in a Hercules machine. I did find Dan Horák's blog here about installing Fedora 20 under Hercules, but this is moderately old (2014):


http://sharkcz.livejournal.com/12268.html http://sharkcz.livejournal.com/12268.html http://sharkcz.livejournal.com/12268.html


Can anyone point me to a more recent set of instructions, perhaps one authored by someone in the community here?


Another question I have is that when I tried to go to both SUSE and RH sites to download the "enterprise server" version for z architecture, there was a whole licensing and company info questionnaire to be filled in. Do we really need to do this? I'm certainly not about to commit to a multi-thousand-US-dollar contract to download a supposedly open-source distribution. So what is the secret sauce recipe for getting a recent copy of z/Linux (with updates possible) that I am missing here?


Is it that we can only get a fresh copy but will never be able to download any updates or patches (especially kernel and security patches)?


TIA for your gentle responses. I'm not afraid of working to get where I want to go, nor to (re-)learning what I need to know to get there. Just point me to the place to start and the resources to learn what I need to know.


Best regards,


Peter
pjfarley3@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 15:23:38 UTC
Permalink
[Re-sending as plain text, sorry for forgetting my netiquette]

Hi All,

It's been quite a while since I last posted here or even since I ran a copy of Herc (maybe V3.03 or so), and probably longer since I assisted on the TK4 project. I have a private (non-commercial) project that would greatly benefit from having an instance of z/Linux available with which to experiment.

I have searched around but can't seem to find a current step-by-step to set up and run an instance of z/Linux in a Hercules machine. I did find Dan Horák's blog here about installing Fedora 20 under Hercules, but this is moderately old (2014):

http://sharkcz.livejournal.com/12268.html

Can anyone point me to a more recent set of instructions, perhaps one authored by someone in the community here?

Another question I have is that when I tried to go to both SUSE and RH sites to download the "enterprise server" version for z architecture, there was a whole licensing and company info questionnaire to be filled in. Do we really need to do this? I'm certainly not about to commit to a multi-thousand-US-dollar contract to download a supposedly open-source distribution. So what is the secret sauce recipe for getting a recent copy of z/Linux (with updates possible) that I am missing here?

Is it that we can only get a fresh copy but will never be able to download any updates or patches (especially kernel and security patches)?

TIA for your gentle responses. I'm not afraid of working to get where I want to go, nor to (re-)learning what I need to know to get there. Just point me to the place to start and the resources to learn what I need to know.

Best regards,

Peter
myyahoo@chycoski.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 17:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Have you looked at:

ClefOS for System z | sinenomine.net | Pro IT Research & Design Business http://www.sinenomine.net/products/linux/clefos

ClefOS for System z | sinenomine.net | Pro IT Research & Design Business http://www.sinenomine.net/products/linux/clefos ClefOS for System z provides a Linux distribution for System z intended to fill the need for a royalty and license free operating system for appliance and utility system construction by anyone wishing to deploy applications on System z hardware. ClefOS provides: A com...



View on www.sinenomine.net http://www.sinenomine.net/products/linux/clefos
Preview by Yahoo




I don't know if it will run in a current version of Hercules/Hyperion, but it's the newest Linux for Z machines that I've seen around.
pjfarley3@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 20:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, I did not know about that one.

I got an off-list reply that the official SUSE and RHEL distros use hardware features not yet available in current versions of Hercules. Can anyone confirm that? If true, can anyone say what features are missing?

Peter
Gregg Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 21:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Hello!
Basically the advanced processor features that the newer physical
systems do have. For example the thing that Ubuntu announced not too
long ago, is in the same bucket because they insist it won't run on
emulated systems such as our Hercules, or Qemu-390 or even Z/PDT.
(Which I am surprised at.)

I believe what you're concerned with just might work on the stuff
stored in the Github repositories for 4.00 but probably not for what
was just released.

Now I'll allow people who know more then I do confirm what I posted or
refute it.

-----
Gregg C Levine ***@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Thanks, I did not know about that one.
I got an off-list reply that the official SUSE and RHEL distros use hardware features not yet available in current versions of Hercules. Can anyone confirm that? If true, can anyone say what features are missing?
Peter
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Ivan Warren ivan@vmfacility.fr [hercules-390]
2016-05-02 22:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregg Levine ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Hello!
Basically the advanced processor features that the newer physical
systems do have. For example the thing that Ubuntu announced not too
long ago, is in the same bucket because they insist it won't run on
emulated systems such as our Hercules, or Qemu-390 or even Z/PDT.
(Which I am surprised at.)
Anyone tried with debian 8 ?

--Ivan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
'\'Fish\' (David B. Trout)' david.b.trout@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 06:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Thanks, I did not know about that one.
I got an off-list reply that ...
Who are you replying to?

Folks, can we have some CONTEXT in your replies please?!
--
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Software Development Laboratories
http://www.softdevlabs.com
mail: ***@softdevlabs.com
S390 s390@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 12:46:11 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Dan Horák dan@danny.cz [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 13:19:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 May 2016 12:46:11 +0000 (UTC)
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
On Sun, 01 May 2016 21:23:13 -0700,
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
It's been quite a while since I last posted here or even since I
ran a copy of Herc (maybe V3.03 or so), and probably longer since I
assisted on the TK4 project. I have a private (non-commercial)
project that would greatly benefit from having an instance of
z/Linux available with which to experiment.
I have searched around but can't seem to find a current
step-by-step to set up and run an instance of z/Linux in a Hercules
machine. I did find Dan Horák's blog here about installing Fedora
generally the instructions should be still valid, we are collecting the
changes and known issues in the Release notes section in
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/s390x/23
And because it's a wiki anybody is welcome to fill the missing info.
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
You seem to be a mind reader, as I too was just about to post
something similar based on my research...
As far as I can tell this is what I've determined, subject to
verification, as I've not had time to try these yet.
Debian S390X - Appears to be good current release 8.0, The tutorial
http://stevesdebianstuff.org/hercules.htm
http://www.josefsipek.net/docs/s390-linux/hercules-s390.html
Seems to go a different route...
Ubuntu - Will NOT WORK requires ZEC12 or later
RHEL - 7.0-7.1 WORK? but 7.2+ are like Ubuntu requires ZEC12
for all RHEL 7.x it should be z196 (or newer)

Fedora is still built for z10 (or newer)


Dan
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
SLES - Seems to be the same for current release, and as you found, a
lot of hoops to jump through to get the ISO. I'd be curious to know
the last version to work with Hercules 3.x
CentOS -4.6 is the last I know to work, and the last release ISO.
ClefOS - Based off CentOS, but unless I am not reading their site
right, seems to be limited in the software available.
I am probably going to just do a Debian install if 8.0 works, since
that is closest to what I use the most, a Ubuntu derivative.
BUT
I would like to get at least any some what current version of SLES
and RHEL going as these two seem to be the heavy hitters in the
"enterprise" level.
I would welcome some definitive responses on what versions work and
links to tutorials especially RHEL and SLES.
Any chance these update requirements will be met in a later Hercules
release? In the PPA's etc., not the compiled one(s). Why? With a
Ubuntu release there is going to be more users come looking for
Hercules to try out the S390 port. AND If Unbuntu did this, I can see
this filtering upstream to Debian in 8+ versions. I am not sure why
Canoncial/Ubuntu did this, but since this is a joint IBM venture I
have my opinion, and it is similar to the whole Ubuntu/Pi fiasco,
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848154 for some background,
although newer Pi2+ can use the ARM version that Canoncial set.
If needed I am all for filing some bugs against this regression, but
is this a kernel issue which if so most likely a dead end to get it
changed, unless Canoncial(Ubuntu), Debian, RH, SUSE could option
different kernels for Hercules use. Or Ubuntu/Canocial and we can
file some in Launchpad. The Ubunto[u] thread had some one mentioning
they would seek to contact Ubuntu control ( :) ), I have not seen any
responses. Unless they are on the Marist list possibly, since the
Ubuntu list seems dead.
I certainly would like this to be resolved to allow Hercules to use
newer z/Linux setups for my own educational purposes.
Comments, corrections, edifications, additions, welcome.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 14:22:28 UTC
Permalink
There was some discussion on the Marist Linux list with regards to
Ubuntu, in particular on zPDT.
2827
2828
2964
2965
zPDT is a CPU model of 1090.
In essence, it requires zEC12 or higher CPU. One of the major
facilities needed is Interlocked Access Facility 2 (IAF2). The Linux
kernel at these levels is using it for atomic operations. Apparently
zPDT does not have IAF2.
At one point the kernel was requiring Transaction Execution Facility,
but from 4.3 on, that was removed. Ubuntu, according to the Marist
list
is a 4.4 kernel.
Hyperion has IAF2, but you will need to build it. Are there
additional
ones? Most of us are familiar with the PFPO issue on Hercules and its
work around.
I am aware of only three issues, today:

- PFPO missing from Hercules (both Hyperion and release)
- DIAGNOSE X'308' missing Program Re-IPL (both Hyperion and release)
- IAF2 available in Hyperion, but not in release

PFPO has a Hyperion work around - use archlvl to fix STFL(E) bit. I
think the releases automatically turn the required bit on.
DIAGNOSE X'308' - don't use it
IAF2 available by building Hyperion locally.

At one point there were issues installing Fedora because of the missing
DIAGNOSE. There is a work around if that occurs, but I have not
recently seen this mentioned on any of the lists.

Most of the reports related to Linux not running on any emulator are
based upon "out of the box" uses of Hercules releases. It is unlikely
that a distro would try to run Hyperion. And they might only try
running Linux with the version of Hercules they distribute. Many are
behind. Some distros have business reasons to not be terribly
aggressive in making Linux work with Hercules.

As Dan explained, it depends upon what processor level the distro
targets in its build.

I do not believe the issues are quite as dismal as some reports would
suggest.

Harold Grovesteen
On Tue, 3 May 2016 12:46:11 +0000 (UTC)
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
On Sun, 01 May 2016 21:23:13 -0700,
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
It's been quite a while since I last posted here or even since I
ran a copy of Herc (maybe V3.03 or so), and probably longer since I
assisted on the TK4 project. I have a private (non-commercial)
project that would greatly benefit from having an instance of
z/Linux available with which to experiment.
I have searched around but can't seem to find a current
step-by-step to set up and run an instance of z/Linux in a Hercules
machine. I did find Dan Horák's blog here about installing Fedora
generally the instructions should be still valid, we are collecting the
changes and known issues in the Release notes section in
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/s390x/23
And because it's a wiki anybody is welcome to fill the missing info.
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
You seem to be a mind reader, as I too was just about to post
something similar based on my research...
As far as I can tell this is what I've determined, subject to
verification, as I've not had time to try these yet.
Debian S390X - Appears to be good current release 8.0, The tutorial
http://stevesdebianstuff.org/hercules.htm
http://www.josefsipek.net/docs/s390-linux/hercules-s390.html
Seems to go a different route...
Ubuntu - Will NOT WORK requires ZEC12 or later
RHEL - 7.0-7.1 WORK? but 7.2+ are like Ubuntu requires ZEC12
for all RHEL 7.x it should be z196 (or newer)
Fedora is still built for z10 (or newer)
Dan
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
SLES - Seems to be the same for current release, and as you found, a
lot of hoops to jump through to get the ISO. I'd be curious to know
the last version to work with Hercules 3.x
CentOS -4.6 is the last I know to work, and the last release ISO.
ClefOS - Based off CentOS, but unless I am not reading their site
right, seems to be limited in the software available.
I am probably going to just do a Debian install if 8.0 works, since
that is closest to what I use the most, a Ubuntu derivative.
BUT
I would like to get at least any some what current version of SLES
and RHEL going as these two seem to be the heavy hitters in the
"enterprise" level.
I would welcome some definitive responses on what versions work and
links to tutorials especially RHEL and SLES.
Any chance these update requirements will be met in a later Hercules
release? In the PPA's etc., not the compiled one(s). Why? With a
Ubuntu release there is going to be more users come looking for
Hercules to try out the S390 port. AND If Unbuntu did this, I can see
this filtering upstream to Debian in 8+ versions. I am not sure why
Canoncial/Ubuntu did this, but since this is a joint IBM venture I
have my opinion, and it is similar to the whole Ubuntu/Pi fiasco,
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/848154 for some background,
although newer Pi2+ can use the ARM version that Canoncial set.
If needed I am all for filing some bugs against this regression, but
is this a kernel issue which if so most likely a dead end to get it
changed, unless Canoncial(Ubuntu), Debian, RH, SUSE could option
different kernels for Hercules use. Or Ubuntu/Canocial and we can
file some in Launchpad. The Ubunto[u] thread had some one mentioning
they would seek to contact Ubuntu control ( :) ), I have not seen any
responses. Unless they are on the Marist list possibly, since the
Ubuntu list seems dead.
I certainly would like this to be resolved to allow Hercules to use
newer z/Linux setups for my own educational purposes.
Comments, corrections, edifications, additions, welcome.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.hercules-390.org
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 23:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
- PFPO missing from Hercules (both Hyperion and release)
- DIAGNOSE X'308' missing Program Re-IPL (both Hyperion and release)
- IAF2 available in Hyperion, but not in release
PFPO has a Hyperion work around - use archlvl to fix STFL(E) bit. I
think the releases automatically turn the required bit on.
DIAGNOSE X'308' - don't use it
IAF2 available by building Hyperion locally.
At one point there were issues installing Fedora because of the missing
DIAGNOSE. There is a work around if that occurs, but I have not
recently seen this mentioned on any of the lists.
Help me out here for a moment... Diagnose X'308' is something expected
(by Fedora and maybe other Linuxes) to be supported by the Real Iron
*hardware*? This has nothing to do with running under z/VM?

Where is this (or any) Diagnose documented, other than the z/VM books?
It's certainly not in the Principles of Operation.

Tony H.
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-04 13:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Harold Grovesteen ***@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
- PFPO missing from Hercules (both Hyperion and release)
- DIAGNOSE X'308' missing Program Re-IPL (both Hyperion and release)
- IAF2 available in Hyperion, but not in release
PFPO has a Hyperion work around - use archlvl to fix STFL(E) bit. I
think the releases automatically turn the required bit on.
DIAGNOSE X'308' - don't use it
IAF2 available by building Hyperion locally.
At one point there were issues installing Fedora because of the missing
DIAGNOSE. There is a work around if that occurs, but I have not
recently seen this mentioned on any of the lists.
Help me out here for a moment... Diagnose X'308' is something expected
(by Fedora and maybe other Linuxes) to be supported by the Real Iron
*hardware*? This has nothing to do with running under z/VM?
Correct. DIAGNOSE X'308' is provided by PR/SM, required on all modern
systems. I have concluded that because it seems to work when running
Linux in an LPAR (as opposed to z/VM). So it isn't exactly provided by
the hardware but for all intents and purposes it is expected and has no
facility list entry for it. Presumably, z/VM provides its own emulated
DIAGNOSE X'308' for guests running in it.

Linux will generally run without it. However, Fedora at one point had
an issue related to it being missing in its installer. The consequence
was setting a file as read-only that the rest of the distro expected to
be read-write. The work around was to change the permissions on the
file during or post install. There were some posts on the Fedora email
list related to it. Do not know the current state of this situation
with more recent versions.
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Where is this (or any) Diagnose documented, other than the z/VM books?
It's certainly not in the Principles of Operation.
Presumably in IBM internal documentation.
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Tony H.
'Peter J. Jansen' peter_j_jansen@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-04 14:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Re. DIAGNOSE X‘308‘ : Thanks for this valuable info. Only now do I understand why a “shutdown reipl” command of (1st level) z/VM 6.3 under Hercules caused unexpected problems for me. I’ll stop using this "reipl" thingy until perhaps DIAGNOSE X'308' gets implemented in Hercules.

Re. SUSE : Some time ago, after some workarounds, I was eventually successful in installing SUSE SLES 12, and later then SLES 12 SP1, under z/VM 5.3 under Hercules, but only when using Hercules Spinhawk 3.12. Under Hercules Hyperion 4.00 I ran into issue #29 as a showstopper that I could not circumvent. The only manner to obtain SLES 12 for me was to use the 6-month trial download from SUSE (after registering), so during this period the updates worked. I say worked, because SLES 12 ran out after 6 months, and SLES 12 SP 1 now is broken for me: the last batch of updates resulted in a looping SLES 12 SP 1 after rebooting. Cause unknown. Please note that neither SLES 12 installation worked for me under Hercules “native” LPAR, only under z/VM (5.3) under Hercules. And even then I had to circumvent STFLE problems, but, miraculously and without me understanding it, NOT with bit 44 or whatever, but with bit 23 (if my counting is correct); I had to patch F3F0FFFB into F360FFFB at location F00 after the STFLE instruction (typically twice during IPLing). However, I encountered numerous problems with SLES 12, and now also with SLES 12 SP1. I do not know whether this is due to Hercules, or due to SLES bugs; people are already mentioning SLES 12 SP2 ...

Re Ubuntu 16.04 : I just verified that this latest z system Linux, that is Ubuntu 16.04, starts installing under Hercules Hyperion 4.00, but after half an hour of burning CPU without further progress I gave up. I might try that again later on.

Peter J. Jansen
pjfarley3@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-04 01:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Harold, that is good information.


Sounds like I should build Hyperion with IAF2 added. And after reading the PoOP on PFPO I can see why it isn't implemented quite yet. That one is a real bear.


Do you know how (or if) we "hobby" users can actually DL a copy of SUSE or RHEL z/Linux, or is that download restricted to actual z hardware users? And if we can DL a copy, will we ever be able to get patches and/or updates without paying the steep support fees?


Peter
Harold Grovesteen h.grovsteen@tx.rr.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-04 13:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Thank you Harold, that is good information.
Sounds like I should build Hyperion with IAF2 added. And after
reading the PoOP on PFPO I can see why it isn't implemented quite yet.
That one is a real bear.
Do you know how (or if) we "hobby" users can actually DL a copy of
SUSE or RHEL z/Linux, or is that download restricted to actual z
hardware users? And if we can DL a copy, will we ever be able to get
patches and/or updates without paying the steep support fees?
Peter
No. I don't know how to do get a copy of SUSE or RHEL. Fedora, which
isn't exactly RHEL, seems to be more friendly to Hercules. I have not
seen any reference to s390x with regards to openSUSE. I personally
don't run Linux with Hercules. But, I do try to track what is happening
with Linux and Hercules functionality.

Harold
pade@trifox.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-05 15:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps I am missing the point here but I have never had any problem downloading copies of SLES or RHEL for 390. I registered for an account on both (no cost) and download all I want, e.g. s390, PowerPC, x86-64, Itanium, etc...
S390 s390@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
2016-05-07 14:33:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 May 2016 08:38:13 -0700,
Post by ***@trifox.com [hercules-390]
Perhaps I am missing the point here but I have never had any problem
downloading copies of SLES or RHEL for 390. I registered for an account
on both (no cost) and download all I want, e.g. s390, PowerPC, x86-64,
Itanium, etc...
The issue is exactly that which you list. Having to create an account to
download.

Basically it boils down to a cultural difference. Not to drive too far
off the reservation.....

SUSE and RH are much more clearly "commercial" operations for their
distros. And this and the hoops "to register" to download are huge turn
offs to those in the Linux community. Linux culture is you go to some
place click download and get the ISO for what ever flavor it is. Updates,
are there for free, think Canoncial/Ubuntu, Debian, etc.. There are
commercial support for these available from places. Most are not after
it. A few might. My company we hired support staff, in other words me and
my staff, versus paying for support. We also don't use SLES or RHEL.

I've been with Linux for a long time, a long time. I've also got
background that goes back to PDP8e's with ETOS to various other setups on
IBM and DEC.

I am not real fond of registering to download an ISO, and to be honest
the way they are listed on RH and SUSE's sites they tend to imply, even
if not the case, but to intensionally imply these accounts are limited
time. Which I get, that SUSE and RHEL are in this for $$$$, but again
that runs into the two sides of the Linux culture war.

If I create an account on RH and grab the S390 ISO, set up things, and
then say 6months to a year later I want to grab the new one does this
"evaluation account" still work? I don't know, I never investigated it.
Simply because RH and I are on two differing sides of the Linux culture,
in a different way than just $$$.

To most here this is SOP, and not really an issue, but to the average
Linux person, and even more so the more "devout" Linux user its a BIG
DEAL. If RH and SUSE are really just after the $$$ from support contracts
then make it easier to download the ISO's. Making it clear that say
after 60 days, you can't update the distro itself, or what ever. I get
why SUSE and RH want this, they want to pass this info on to sales.
Thanks, but no thanks.

R P Herrold herrold@owlriver.com [hercules-390]
2016-05-03 14:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by S390 ***@tampascanner.info [hercules-390]
ClefOS - Based off CentOS, but unless I am not reading their site right,
seems to be limited in the software available.
all the CentOS (RHEL) 6 and 7 packages and updates for which
sources are in the upstream mirror or 'git' are built

-- Russ herrold
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...