Discussion:
Support on Hercules Emulator for VM/370 V6.3
(too old to reply)
tcssouji@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-11 11:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Support team,

We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe environment and investigating for Hercules emulator option.

Below are the few queries to proceed with the setup:

1. Could you please let us know if we can install z/VM 6.3 version on Hercules emulator. If so please share the download link and installation guide.
2. Any official support group to get help for this product in case of any issues in future?

Thank you.



Appreciate your support please.


Regards,
Soujanya
Joe Monk joemonk64@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-11 12:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
z/vm is a an IBM licensed program product.

Good luck in trying to get a license our of IBM to allow you to run on
Hercules.

Joe
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi Support team,
We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe environment and investigating for
Hercules emulator option.
1. Could you please let us know if we can install z/VM 6.3 version on
Hercules emulator. If so please share the download link and installation
guide.
2. Any official support group to get help for this product in case of any issues in future?
Thank you.
Appreciate your support please.
Regards,
Soujanya
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-11 13:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our
applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe
environment and investigating for Hercules emulator option.
If you wish to move off mainframe and onto
x64 or whatever, why do you still wish to use
z/VM? Can't you run on Linux/x64 rather than
do emulation? Running natively is something
like 70 times faster than on Hercules.

(GCCMVS can rebuild itself on native x64
in about 1 minute while it takes about 70
minutes under Hercules - numbers not
super-accurate as weren't done after a
fresh reboot).

How many applications do you have on the
z/VM system currently, and what language
are they written in, and are they 24-bit,
31-bit or 64-bit applications? Do you know
how much memory the biggest application
uses?

Do you want to migrate the applications from
Hercules+z/VM to Linux/x64 slowly or all at
once?
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
1. Could you please let us know if we can
install z/VM 6.3 version on Hercules emulator.
If so please share the download link and installation guide.
Do you wish to do this legally or illegally? If you
want to do it legally, there is a trial version of
z/VM available, but I think it has a time limit of
3 months or something. Also, if you're already
running z/VM on mainframe hardware legally,
you may be able to legally use those same z/VM
installation tapes to run on Hercules as part
of a "disaster recovery" test.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2. Any official support group to get help for this
product in case of any issues in future?
Hercules is a freeware product, so you can
post your questions here or in H390-VM or
hercules-os380 and you can get random
free support. Or you can presumably hire
someone around here as a contractor to
fix problems.

BFN. Paul.
Tcs Souji tcssouji@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 12:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi team,
Thank you so much for your quick response and information ! We would like to brief you on the existing environment for which your support would be required for target setup. 
The challenge here is we do not have source code for 5 binary modules(PASCAL) in z/VM 6.3. Would like to have solution to migrate these binaries.We are exploring multiple options here:
Option 1. We have installed Hercules(trial version) and z/VM 6.0(free version) and executing these binaries in Hercules emulator
Option 2: Migrate the binaries to z/OS environment and execute them
We would like to request you to let us know the below information for the above options :
Option 1: Can z/VM 6.3 be installed on Hercules Emulator ? If so, we can check for license cost.                To execute the binary modules in Hercules do we need any PASCAL compiler/loader, etc or any other third party software to be installed ? 
Option 2: Is it possible ? Any idea on how to migrate and execute ?                 Any support information that can be shared will be of great help !
Appreciate your help and support !
Regards,Soujanya
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our
applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe
environment and investigating for Hercules emulator option.
If you wish to move off mainframe and onto
x64 or whatever, why do you still wish to use
z/VM? Can't you run on Linux/x64 rather than
do emulation? Running natively is something
like 70 times faster than on Hercules.

(GCCMVS can rebuild itself on native x64
in about 1 minute while it takes about 70
minutes under Hercules - numbers not
super-accurate as weren't done after a
fresh reboot).

How many applications do you have on the
z/VM system currently, and what language
are they written in, and are they 24-bit,
31-bit or 64-bit applications? Do you know
how much memory the biggest application
uses?

Do you want to migrate the applications from
Hercules+z/VM to Linux/x64 slowly or all at
once?
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
1. Could you please let us know if we can
install z/VM 6.3 version on Hercules emulator.
If so please share the download link and installation guide.
Do you wish to do this legally or illegally? If you
want to do it legally, there is a trial version of
z/VM available, but I think it has a time limit of
3 months or something. Also, if you're already
running z/VM on mainframe hardware legally,
you may be able to legally use those same z/VM
installation tapes to run on Hercules as part
of a "disaster recovery" test.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2. Any official support group to get help for this
product in case of any issues in future?
Hercules is a freeware product, so you can
post your questions here or in H390-VM or
hercules-os380 and you can get random
free support. Or you can presumably hire
someone around here as a contractor to
fix problems.

BFN. Paul.
#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413 -- #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp #yiv8976613413hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp #yiv8976613413ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp .yiv8976613413ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp .yiv8976613413ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mkp .yiv8976613413ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ygrp-lc #yiv8976613413hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ygrp-lc .yiv8976613413ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413actions {font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity {background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity span {font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity span:first-child {text-transform:uppercase;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity span a {color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity span span {color:#ff7900;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413activity span .yiv8976613413underline {text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413attach {clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px 0;width:400px;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413attach div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413attach img {border:none;padding-right:5px;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413attach label {display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413attach label a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 blockquote {margin:0 0 0 4px;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413bold {font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413bold a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 dd.yiv8976613413last p a {font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 dd.yiv8976613413last p span {margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 dd.yiv8976613413last p span.yiv8976613413yshortcuts {margin-right:0;}#yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413attach-table div div a {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413attach-table {width:400px;}#yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413file-title a, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413file-title a:active, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413file-title a:hover, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413file-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413photo-title a, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413photo-title a:active, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413photo-title a:hover, #yiv8976613413 div.yiv8976613413photo-title a:visited {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 div#yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8976613413ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8976613413yshortcuts {font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413green {color:#628c2a;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413MsoNormal {margin:0 0 0 0;}#yiv8976613413 o {font-size:0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413photos div {float:left;width:72px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413photos div div {border:1px solid #666666;min-height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413photos div label {color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413reco-category {font-size:77%;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413reco-desc {font-size:77%;}#yiv8976613413 .yiv8976613413replbq {margin:4px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg select, #yiv8976613413 input, #yiv8976613413 textarea {font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8976613413 code {font:115% monospace;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8976613413logo {padding-bottom:10px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-msg p a {font-family:Verdana;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-msg p#yiv8976613413attach-count span {color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-reco #yiv8976613413reco-head {color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-reco {margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ov li a {font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ov li {font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-sponsor #yiv8976613413ov ul {margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-text {font-family:Georgia;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-text p {margin:0 0 1em 0;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-text tt {font-size:120%;}#yiv8976613413 #yiv8976613413ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {border-right:none !important;}#yiv8976613413
Joe Monk joemonk64@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 13:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Well you're in luck then.

The author/maintainer of the PASCAL compiler is on this list ...

You can find his really cool work here: http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm

As you probably know, pascal compilers produce p-code which is executed by
the OS specific runtime. So as long as you have the p-code you are good to
go.

Joe
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi team,
Thank you so much for your quick response and information !
We would like to brief you on the existing environment for which your
support would be required for target setup.
The challenge here is we do not have source code for 5 binary
modules(PASCAL) in z/VM 6.3. Would like to have solution to migrate these
binaries.
Option 1. We have installed Hercules(trial version) and z/VM 6.0(free
version) and executing these binaries in Hercules emulator
Option 2: Migrate the binaries to z/OS environment and execute them
Option 1: Can z/VM 6.3 be installed on Hercules Emulator ? If so, we can
check for license cost.
To execute the binary modules in Hercules do we need any
PASCAL compiler/loader, etc or any other third party software to be
installed ?
Option 2: Is it possible ? Any idea on how to migrate and execute ?
Any support information that can be shared will be of
great help !
Appreciate your help and support !
Regards,
Soujanya
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our
applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe
environment and investigating for Hercules emulator option.
If you wish to move off mainframe and onto
x64 or whatever, why do you still wish to use
z/VM? Can't you run on Linux/x64 rather than
do emulation? Running natively is something
like 70 times faster than on Hercules.
(GCCMVS can rebuild itself on native x64
in about 1 minute while it takes about 70
minutes under Hercules - numbers not
super-accurate as weren't done after a
fresh reboot).
How many applications do you have on the
z/VM system currently, and what language
are they written in, and are they 24-bit,
31-bit or 64-bit applications? Do you know
how much memory the biggest application
uses?
Do you want to migrate the applications from
Hercules+z/VM to Linux/x64 slowly or all at
once?
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
1. Could you please let us know if we can
install z/VM 6.3 version on Hercules emulator.
If so please share the download link and installation guide.
Do you wish to do this legally or illegally? If you
want to do it legally, there is a trial version of
z/VM available, but I think it has a time limit of
3 months or something. Also, if you're already
running z/VM on mainframe hardware legally,
you may be able to legally use those same z/VM
installation tapes to run on Hercules as part
of a "disaster recovery" test.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2. Any official support group to get help for this
product in case of any issues in future?
Hercules is a freeware product, so you can
post your questions here or in H390-VM or
hercules-os380 and you can get random
free support. Or you can presumably hire
someone around here as a contractor to
fix problems.
BFN. Paul.
Martin Truebner Martin@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 14:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
So as long as you have the p-code you are good to
go.


That is what I read from Bernds Documentation as well... so

I guess we wait for Bernd to chime in.

Martin
Bernd Oppolzer berndoppolzer@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 21:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello all,

if the binaries are Pascal modules running on z/VM, they are probably
produced by IBMs Pascal/VS compiler. This compiler is a commercial product
of IBM; I used it in the 1990s on VM. Don't know, if it is still
marketed. An old
version of documentation for this compiler is on my Stanford compiler
website,
look here:

http://bernd-oppolzer.de/VS_PASCAL.pdf

This compiler is famous for many different reasons; for example the
first version of
TCP/IP for the mainframe was implemented using this compiler etc. etc.;
my work
on the new Stanford compiler is in many ways inspired by this great
compiler.

Unfortunately, this compiler didn't (AFAIK) produce intermediate P-Code,
and the
original poster probably only has the binaries (the MODULE, I guess),
and nothing else.

It will be very difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct the Pascal
source from the
binaries. On the other hand: if you have Pascal sources, then, of
course, I can help
you with my compiler ...

Anyway, if we could take a look at the binaries, we could maybe get more
ideas
(IIRC, the runtime subroutines of the Pascal/VS compiler started with
the letters
AMPX ... but I may be slightly wrong on this).

HTH, kind regards

Bernd
Post by Martin Truebner ***@pi-sysprog.de [hercules-390]
Post by Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
So as long as you have the p-code you are good to
go.
That is what I read from Bernds Documentation as well... so
I guess we wait for Bernd to chime in.
Martin
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 00:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
This compiler is famous for many different reasons; for example the
first version of
TCP/IP for the mainframe was implemented using this compiler etc. etc.;
Okay, this is intriguing.

I have been working on bring Multics back to life; and of the major missing
pieces is TCP stack, which was an unbundled product and is nowhere to be
found.

It occurred to me that if the Pascal TCP stack source was available (and
unencumbered), then it might be feasible to bring TCP to Multics for the
cost of porting the pCode interpreter; so I thought I would inquire on
status of the Pascal TCP stack?

Thank you,
-- Charles
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 01:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
This compiler is famous for many different reasons; for example the first version of
TCP/IP for the mainframe was implemented using this compiler etc. etc.;
Okay, this is intriguing.
I have been working on bring Multics back to life; and of the major missing pieces is TCP stack, which was an unbundled product and is nowhere to be found.
It occurred to me that if the Pascal TCP stack source was available (and unencumbered), then it might be feasible to bring TCP to Multics for the cost of porting the pCode interpreter; so I thought I would inquire on status of the Pascal TCP stack?
Source for IBM's Pascal TCP/IP stack for VM (often known as "FAL"
because its program ID was 5798-FAL) is probably not available (though
I do believe the source was shipped, at least for the initial PRPQ
version) and is certainly not unencumbered. Sorry...

Are there not plenty of open source C-based TCP/IP stacks around?

Tony H.
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 01:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Source for IBM's Pascal TCP/IP stack for VM (often known as "FAL"
because its program ID was 5798-FAL) is probably not available (though
I do believe the source was shipped, at least for the initial PRPQ
version) and is certainly not unencumbered. Sorry...
Are there not plenty of open source C-based TCP/IP stacks around?
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be very good; porting the pCode
interpreter getting us a robust Pascal compiler and a TCP stack seems like
a path worth investigating.

-- Charles
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 02:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be
very good;
Can you elaborate on that?

I'm horrified that interpreted pCode could
possibly be faster than the output of a C
compiler on any platform.

And what machine code are you talking
about? I looked up Wikipedia and it
seems that Multics ran/runs on GE/Honeywell.
What processor is that? Is there a GCC
target? Are you using a non-GCC compiler,
and if so, what is its name?

And are integers 36 bits?

And can it support an executable that is
3 MiB in size? And can it support an
address space 20 MiB in size?

Thanks. Paul.
Kevin Monceaux Kevin@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I looked up Wikipedia and it seems that Multics ran/runs on GE/Honeywell.
What processor is that?
Some information on the emulator capable of running Multics can be found at:

http://RingZero.WikiDot.com/

I'm glad it was mentioned here. It's been a while since I checked the
status of that project. I started getting to know Multics thanks to the
DPS-8/M emulator, but have forgotten most of what I learned.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:09:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevin Monceaux ***@RawFedDogs.net [hercules-390]
I looked up Wikipedia and it seems that Multics ran/runs on GE/Honeywell.
What processor is that?
http://RingZero.WikiDot.com/
I'm glad it was mentioned here. It's been a while since I checked the
status of that project. I started getting to know Multics thanks to the
DPS-8/M emulator, but have forgotten most of what I learned.
For an introduction to Multics: http://multicians.org/
-- Charles
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be
very good;
Can you elaborate on that?
It's handling of syntax errors tends to be to print a random string.

It's K&R C (at best), so most contemporary code requires a bit of wrangling.

I'm not convinced that it's "standard libraries" are complete or correct.

The C compiler is a 3rd party product; the main compiler for Multics is
PL/1.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I'm horrified that interpreted pCode could
possibly be faster than the output of a C
compiler on any platform.
I'm sure the pCode would be slower, but slow-running software beats
not-running every time.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
And what machine code are you talking
about? I looked up Wikipedia and it
seems that Multics ran/runs on GE/Honeywell.
What processor is that? Is there a GCC
target? Are you using a non-GCC compiler,
and if so, what is its name?
Multics runs on Honeywell 6180 or DPS8/M mainframes; the last hardware was
decommissioned in 2000 (which is why I am subscribed to emulator lists). I
know of no cross-compilers. The C compiler runs under Multics running on
emulated hardware. (Yes; the pCode interpreter would be running on an
emulator, not very fast at all. The original H/w ran at about 1 MIP; the
emulator runs 6-8 MIPs on good hardware.

And are integers 36 bits?
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Yep. Memory is 36 bit words. The addressing scheme is is unusual; process
address space is divided into segments; each segment 256KWs; 32K segments
per process (H/W limit; OS resource limits, mostly on page tables set a
lower limit). Pages are 1K; each segment has it's own access controls and
privileges; segment crossing (data or code) privileges verified by the
hardware.

And can it support an executable that is
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
3 MiB in size? And can it support an
address space 20 MiB in size?
Yes, but at that size you probably need to start being smart with the
binder in order to optimize code layout.

-- Charles
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 04:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be
very good;
Can you elaborate on that?
It's handling of syntax errors tends to be to print a random string.
Ok. That would be annoying.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
It's K&R C (at best), so most contemporary code requires a bit of wrangling.
At around the time ANSI C came out, there
were ANSI to K&R translators available.
Would you be happy using that?

I'm somewhat surprised that it's still only
K&R C. The ANSI committee started in
1983 and there was a draft available in
1987 I believe, which was when the
manual was written.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I'm not convinced that it's "standard libraries" are complete or correct.
I downloaded the manual from here:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/honeywell/multics/HH07-01_C_UsersGuide_Nov87.pdf

and it looks pretty comprehensive to me.

Regardless, it may be useful to port PDPCLIB
or one of the other public domain C runtime
libraries that are now available.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The C compiler is a 3rd party product; the main compiler for Multics is PL/1.
The manual above is labelled "Honeywell".
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I'm sure the pCode would be slower, but
slow-running software beats not-running
every time.
Sure, but a massive manual like that suggests
that there's a massive piece of software
backing it, which I would expect to be
sufficiently robust to handle most utility
programming.

Have you run into an actual problem that
can't be worked around?
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Multics runs on Honeywell 6180 or DPS8/M
mainframes; the last hardware was
I'm still unclear as to what this different
hardware is. With the mainframe you have
S/370 code which still runs on z/OS.

Is Honeywell 6180 still runnable on DPS8/M
the same way? Or is it the reverse? Or are
these 2 completely independent instruction
sets?

Assuming 6180 is like S/370, it means if a
compiler targets the 6180, that will cover
everything.

So we're just looking for a 6180 target.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
decommissioned in 2000
I am surprised that real hardware was around
to 2000 yet no-one was inspired to add a GCC
target.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I know of no cross-compilers.
It doesn't need to be a cross-compiler. I would
have expected a native version of GCC to be
available on ASCII hardware that was still being
used in 2000.

Anyway, it is sufficient if the compiler just
generates 6180 code. It doesn't need to
be for Multics. But so far I haven't been
able to find any discussion of people
wanting a 6180 target for an old version
of GCC.

If 6180 code can be generated, a native
Multics compiler can be built when a
suitable C runtime library is made available,
which, with PDPCLIB, is a possibility.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
And are integers 36 bits?
Yep. Memory is 36 bit words.
And from the compiler manual, I can see that
"long" is not just 64 bits, it is 72 bits! Way
back then!
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
And can it support an executable that is
3 MiB in size? And can it support an
address space 20 MiB in size?
Yes,
Ok, cool.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
but at that size you probably need to start being
smart with the binder in order to optimize code layout.
Why? Isn't modern hardware fast enough to
throw any such issue into the bin?

BFN. Paul.
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 05:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Have you run into an actual problem that
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
can't be worked around?
I haven't looked at it very deeply. I've mostly been working on the
emulator, getting existing Multics code running. I don't have the source
for the C compiler, so if it misbehaves, it is difficult to tell if the
issue is a problem with the emulator or the compiler. Thus, experimenting
with the C compiler has been a low priority. I had a poor experience early
on, probably due to emulator bugs,
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Multics runs on Honeywell 6180 or DPS8/M
mainframes; the last hardware was
I'm still unclear as to what this different
hardware is. With the mainframe you have
S/370 code which still runs on z/OS.
6180 and DPS8/M are the same architecture; different generations (and
marketing).
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Is Honeywell 6180 still runnable on DPS8/M
the same way? Or is it the reverse? Or are
these 2 completely independent instruction
sets?
Almost identical instruction sets; some of the memory management
instructions changed, but that is invisible at the application level.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming 6180 is like S/370, it means if a
compiler targets the 6180, that will cover
everything.
Yes;
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
And from the compiler manual, I can see that
"long" is not just 64 bits, it is 72 bits! Way
back then!
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
And can it support an executable that is
3 MiB in size? And can it support an
address space 20 MiB in size?
Yes,
Ok, cool.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
but at that size you probably need to start being
smart with the binder in order to optimize code layout.
Why? Isn't modern hardware fast enough to
throw any such issue into the bin?
6 to 8 MIPS in the emulator.
Perhaps. Segment size is limited to 256K words, so a large image is going
to span segments. Depending on the code generated, segment crossing might
be expensive, indicating the need to put some though into the organization
of the image. I don't think it would have a profound impact, but it would
bear some analysis at some point.

It occurs to me that the big hurdle might be stack space; I would have to
check with the experts, but I suspect that 255K word stack is a hard limit.

I don't think that there is any reason that 6180 backend for GCC could not
be written and used to cross-compile code, but I suspect that GCC is too
much code to run on the emulator. Maybe some of the earlier GCC compilers.
The Portable C Compiler might be a better candidate.

-- Charles
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 06:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Assuming 6180 is like S/370, it means if a
compiler targets the 6180, that will cover
everything.
Yes;
Cool.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
It occurs to me that the big hurdle might be stack
space; I would have to check with the experts,
but I suspect that 255K word stack is a hard limit.
Is that 255 * 1024 * 4 bytes? ie basically 1 MiB.

GCCMVS 3.2.3 v8.5 is able to compile itself with
a 262 KB stack. I'm not sure how much that stack
size can be reduced too. It is just the result of
doubling or whatever whenever there was an issue. :-)
So I would expect GCC/6180 to work within that
stack limit.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I don't think that there is any reason that 6180
backend for GCC could not be written and used
to cross-compile code,
Note that the i370.md, which has things like
this in it:

;
; tsthi instruction pattern(s).
;

(define_insn "tsthi"
[(set (cc0)
(match_operand:HI 0 "register_operand" "d"))]
""
"*
{
check_label_emit ();
mvs_check_page (0, 4, 2);
return \"CH^I%0,=H'0'\";
}"
[(set_attr "length" "4")]
)

is 5000 lines long.

There's also another 5000 lines of supporting
C & H files.

Just to provide scope of what is probably required.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
but I suspect that GCC is too much code to run
on the emulator. Maybe some of the earlier
GCC compilers.
I'm only familiar with GCC 3.2.3 and thereabouts,
but from the figures you have provided so far, I
don't see any barrier.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
The Portable C Compiler might be a better candidate.
Not familiar with that either.

BFN. Paul.
Bernd Oppolzer berndoppolzer@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 19:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hello Mark,

some remarks on this; I had to think about such topics when extending
Stanford Pascal, see below ...


Am 13.12.2017 um 09:21 schrieb Mark Morgan Lloyd
Going somewhat OT for this ML for which I apologise.
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
I don't think that there is any reason that 6180 backend for GCC could
not be written and used to cross-compile code, but I suspect that GCC is
too much code to run on the emulator.  Maybe some of the earlier GCC
compilers. The Portable C Compiler might be a better candidate.
I believe that one issue is that somewhere in the C standard is a
requirement that any valid pointer can be cast to an integer, and any
integer can be cast to a pointer (even if this subsequently segfaults
when dereferenced). That has an implication for null handling, since on
this type of architecture it's no longer safe to assume that zero cast
to an integer and null cast to an integer are equivalent (and vice versa).
I implemented in 2016 a new heap allocation method in Stanford Pascal,
using new predefined functions ALLOC and FREE. The old function NEW
(and MARK, RELEASE) was kept, because it was used heavily in the compiler.
ALLOC and FREE use the same algorithm as the LE memory allocation of today.
ALLOC and FREE allocates storage OUTSIDE of the preallocated heap segment
of Stanford Pascal on an as needed base (in 64 kB chunks; larger, if a
larger
area is required in one single allocation); the overall size is limited
only by
your region capacity. In a later stage, I will try to make the chunk
size controlable
by run time option.

I also added some pointer arithmetic functions to Stanford Pascal, look
here:

http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9k12.htm

BTW: I don't think that it is necessary in general to be able to convert
pointers
to integers and vice versa. If you look at my new functions PTRADD and
PTRDIFF,
this is what is really needed, but not PRT2INT (which I implemented,
too, but IMO
a clean program should not contain PRT2INT). The well known workaround in
other Pascals (overlay of pointers and integers with a variant
structure) is not
needed any more with PRT2INT.

Interesting: even at the P-Code level there is a difference between
adding integers
(ADI) and adding an integer to a pointer (ADA), subtracting integers
(SBI) and
subtracting two pointers, yielding an integer result (SBA). ADA and SBA
are new
P-Code instructions which I inserted in 2016.

BTW: the nil pointer is 0xFFFFFFFF in Stanford Pascal, not 0x0, although
0x0
will not be treated as a valid pointer in most cases.

Best regards

Bernd
All in all, the segmented architectures were the offspring of the IBM
7000 era, which hadn't yet decided that it was highly desirable to limit
the number of word formats that the hardware had to deal with (i.e. 36-
or 48-bit words tended not to be flat integers, addresses didn't map to
integers, and so on). The IBM S/360, with its undifferentiated register
file etc., was the progenitor of just about every architecture in
current use, and delving into the alternative universe of Multics etc.
can yield surprises. HTH.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 23:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I don't have the source for the C compiler, so
if it misbehaves, it is difficult to tell if the issue
is a problem with the emulator or the compiler.
Thus, experimenting with the C compiler has
been a low priority. I had a poor experience
early on, probably due to emulator bugs,
I thought of another option.

You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.

Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.

BFN. Paul.
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 23:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I thought of another option.
You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.
Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.
In any case, what are the programs that are going to use the TCP/IP
stack going to be written in? PL/I? The cruddy C? They will have to be
able to call the API somehow, or else directly issue the Jason Winter
style instruction.

Tony H.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-14 00:20:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.
Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.
In any case, what are the programs that are going to use the TCP/IP
stack going to be written in? PL/I? The cruddy C? They will have to be
able to call the API somehow, or else directly issue the Jason Winter
style instruction.
I don't understand your point.

The original issue was creating a TCP/IP
stack for Multics. Applications were not
mentioned.

Are you saying that it is pointless to create
a TCP/IP stack for Multics because the
actual applications won't work because of
lackluster language support?

Also I don't understand what you are
referring to about "have to call the API
somehow". I don't know what your point is.

I assumed that there would be a small
assembler function that issues a JW-style
TCP/IP instruction, and that you are then
free to write your application in any
language, including assembler, and just
call that small assembler routine.

BFN. Paul.
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-14 02:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.
Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.
In any case, what are the programs that are going to use the TCP/IP
stack going to be written in? PL/I? The cruddy C? They will have to be
able to call the API somehow, or else directly issue the Jason Winter
style instruction.
I don't understand your point.
The original issue was creating a TCP/IP
stack for Multics. Applications were not
mentioned.
What use is a TCP/IP stack without an application to use it? It's an
OS function or subsystem or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't
do anything by itself. Like a file system or VTAM or anything else, it
provides services that have to be callable by an application program.
Unless your OS is some sort of walled-garden thing like those toy
computers for kids where you aren't allowed to write a program, but
can only run the few "apps" that are included. Or like a pocket
calculator, if you like.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Are you saying that it is pointless to create
a TCP/IP stack for Multics because the
actual applications won't work because of
lackluster language support?
No - I was just pointing out that to be of any use a TCP/IP stack will
have to be callable somehow from somewhere. And since the available C
is said to be cruddy, I wondered what language the apps would be
written in. Since I understand most of Multics itself is written in
PL/I, that would seem to be the logical language to write both the
stack and the apps in, since presumably they figured out linkage
conventions way back when. What other languages are available on
Multics? I certainly don't know, but I'd guess Fortran, maybe Algol,
maybe even COBOL? The languages that were popular at that time (which
didn't include C, certainly; presumably it was a late add-on).
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Also I don't understand what you are
referring to about "have to call the API
somehow". I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how to better put it. Someone will want to write an app -
let's say an FTP program or a telnet server. It will need to call APIs
provided by the TCP/IP stack if it wants to talk to some other network
endpoint.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I assumed that there would be a small
assembler function that issues a JW-style
TCP/IP instruction, and that you are then
free to write your application in any
language, including assembler, and just
call that small assembler routine.
Sure. Assuming Multics has an assembler language. But even that
mimimalist (as far as the amount of TCP/IP stack code to be written)
API requires that the caller be able to format arguments appropriately
and process results. Can you do that in Multics COBOL or Multics C or
Multics Fortran or Multics C?

If I understand correctly, there is an emulator akin to Hercules but
for a very different architecture. It runs on Intel, I believe. So
your FTP app will have to be able to format arguments and such in some
way that the Winter-like instruction can deal with. Will it
necessarily be easier to write the Winter-like instruction than to
write the same code in the native (emulated) machine language (or more
likely PL/I)? Who knows...

Tony H.
Joe Monk joemonk64@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-14 03:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Why are we even having this discussion?

Multics supports X.25 natively. Thus an x.25 packet driver on the PC can be
used with ethernet to do IP to a simulated m Multics host.

All of the Multics PL/1 code supports X.25 and there are documented
APIs/interfaces...

Joe
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.
Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.
In any case, what are the programs that are going to use the TCP/IP
stack going to be written in? PL/I? The cruddy C? They will have to be
able to call the API somehow, or else directly issue the Jason Winter
style instruction.
I don't understand your point.
The original issue was creating a TCP/IP
stack for Multics. Applications were not
mentioned.
What use is a TCP/IP stack without an application to use it? It's an
OS function or subsystem or whatever you want to call it. It doesn't
do anything by itself. Like a file system or VTAM or anything else, it
provides services that have to be callable by an application program.
Unless your OS is some sort of walled-garden thing like those toy
computers for kids where you aren't allowed to write a program, but
can only run the few "apps" that are included. Or like a pocket
calculator, if you like.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Are you saying that it is pointless to create
a TCP/IP stack for Multics because the
actual applications won't work because of
lackluster language support?
No - I was just pointing out that to be of any use a TCP/IP stack will
have to be callable somehow from somewhere. And since the available C
is said to be cruddy, I wondered what language the apps would be
written in. Since I understand most of Multics itself is written in
PL/I, that would seem to be the logical language to write both the
stack and the apps in, since presumably they figured out linkage
conventions way back when. What other languages are available on
Multics? I certainly don't know, but I'd guess Fortran, maybe Algol,
maybe even COBOL? The languages that were popular at that time (which
didn't include C, certainly; presumably it was a late add-on).
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Also I don't understand what you are
referring to about "have to call the API
somehow". I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how to better put it. Someone will want to write an app -
let's say an FTP program or a telnet server. It will need to call APIs
provided by the TCP/IP stack if it wants to talk to some other network
endpoint.
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
I assumed that there would be a small
assembler function that issues a JW-style
TCP/IP instruction, and that you are then
free to write your application in any
language, including assembler, and just
call that small assembler routine.
Sure. Assuming Multics has an assembler language. But even that
mimimalist (as far as the amount of TCP/IP stack code to be written)
API requires that the caller be able to format arguments appropriately
and process results. Can you do that in Multics COBOL or Multics C or
Multics Fortran or Multics C?
If I understand correctly, there is an emulator akin to Hercules but
for a very different architecture. It runs on Intel, I believe. So
your FTP app will have to be able to format arguments and such in some
way that the Winter-like instruction can deal with. Will it
necessarily be easier to write the Winter-like instruction than to
write the same code in the native (emulated) machine language (or more
likely PL/I)? Who knows...
Tony H.
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2018-06-14 19:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Hi Charles. Not sure if you're still around,
but I have a revision to this suggestion.

On MSDOS it was normal to call iNT 21H
to get OS services.

On MVS it was normal to call various SVC
numbers to get OS services.

I don't know what Multics does.

But instead of creating a new instruction like
Jason Winter did, it might be better to modify
the emulator so that when an SVC, e.g.
SVC 120 is issued, the emulator's handling
of the SVC can be intercepted such that if
the SVC number is 120 and R0 is set to
some special value, then the emulator passes
the request on to the host's TCP/IP
implementation.

That way when your Multics application does
a TCP/IP request, it appears that someone
has implemented a standard OS API rather
than a special CPU instruction. The OS API
can change at a later date too if desired, to
do the TCP/IP without using the host's
implementation. There's probably not much
advantage in doing that though.

BFN. Paul.
I don't have the source for the C compiler, so
if it misbehaves, it is difficult to tell if the issue
is a problem with the emulator or the compiler.
Thus, experimenting with the C compiler has
been a low priority. I had a poor experience
early on, probably due to emulator bugs,
I thought of another option.

You could use the same trick that Jason Winter
did to enable TCP/IP on MVS 3.8j, ie create a
new instruction that gives access to the host
TCP/IP stack.

Although if the C compiler/emulator are still
not robust enough to compile and run a
TCP/IP application like "ftp", that still won't
work for you.

BFN. Paul.
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2018-06-14 19:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
Hi Charles. Not sure if you're still around,
but I have a revision to this suggestion.
On MSDOS it was normal to call iNT 21H
to get OS services.
On MVS it was normal to call various SVC
numbers to get OS services.
I don't know what Multics does.
But instead of creating a new instruction like
Jason Winter did, it might be better to modify
the emulator so that when an SVC, e.g.
SVC 120 is issued, the emulator's handling
of the SVC can be intercepted such that if
the SVC number is 120 and R0 is set to
some special value, then the emulator passes
the request on to the host's TCP/IP
implementation.
We decided that the best approach was to implement a smart device
controller that accepts device commands like "socket", "accept", "bind",
"read", "write", and so on; it serves as an interface with the host's
socket library.

Multics makes it fairly easy to integrate a new device into the system: you
add the device name and channel address to the the configuration deck, and
then device allocation, sending CCWs and handling interrupts are all
available as library functions.

-- Charles
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2018-06-14 22:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
We decided that the best approach was to implement
a smart device controller that accepts device
commands like "socket", "accept", "bind", "read", "write",
and so on; it serves as an interface with the host's socket library.
Ok, sounds like a great solution.

BFN. Paul.

Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Are there not plenty of open source C-based TCP/IP stacks around?
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be very good; porting the pCode interpreter getting us a robust Pascal compiler and a TCP stack seems like a path worth investigating.
Surely PL/I would be the Multics language to write TCP/IP in...

Tony H.
Charles Anthony charles.unix.pro@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:40:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Charles Anthony ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Are there not plenty of open source C-based TCP/IP stacks around?
The Multics C compiler doesn't seem to be very good; porting the pCode
interpreter getting us a robust Pascal compiler and a TCP stack seems like
a path worth investigating.
Surely PL/I would be the Multics language to write TCP/IP in...
Sadly, my PL/I skills are weak. I know of one person working on a stack for
a SLIP connection over the emulated serial line interface, but a wiring a
tun/tap device into the emulator and doing a more direct stack would be
slicker.

-- Charles
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 02:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
if the binaries are Pascal modules running on z/VM, they are probably
produced by IBMs Pascal/VS compiler. This compiler is a commercial product
of IBM; I used it in the 1990s on VM. Don't know, if it is still marketed. An old
version of documentation for this compiler is on my Stanford compiler
http://bernd-oppolzer.de/VS_PASCAL.pdf
FYI there is quite a bit of discussion of this and other Pascal
compilers in the VMSHARE archives from the 1980s.

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=PASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/read?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=PROB

Tony H.
Bernd Oppolzer berndoppolzer@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 03:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
if the binaries are Pascal modules running on z/VM, they are probably
produced by IBMs Pascal/VS compiler. This compiler is a commercial product
of IBM; I used it in the 1990s on VM. Don't know, if it is still marketed. An old
version of documentation for this compiler is on my Stanford compiler
http://bernd-oppolzer.de/VS_PASCAL.pdf
FYI there is quite a bit of discussion of this and other Pascal
compilers in the VMSHARE archives from the 1980s.
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=PASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/read?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=PROB
Tony H.
Thank you very much for these links;
I read this infos with great interest.
(The third link yields an error 500, BTW).

I now know the name of the lead developer of Pascal/VS (Steve Mueller).
And I read with interest that Melinda Varian worked on the FTP
component of TCP/IP for VM, using VS/Pascal :-)

It seems that the Stanford people migrated from their own compiler
to Pascal/VS in the 1980s, but McGill university improved and continued
to use
the Stanford compiler until the end of the Music era; that was my starting
point in 2011 (I downloaded the compiler from the SIM390 emulator
running MUSIC/SP and ported it to VM/370 R6 on Hercules, first;
in the beginning pass 1 had about 6000 lines and today it has almost 16000,
and the source program scanner is a new separate module,
2500 more lines).

Thanks again ... have a nice day.

Bernd
Tony Harminc tharminc@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-13 23:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Post by Tony Harminc ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=PASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=MEMO
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/read?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=PROB
Tony H.
Thank you very much for these links;
I read this infos with great interest.
(The third link yields an error 500, BTW).
Sorry - I cut&pasted from the wrong place; that third one should
follow the pattern of the first two:
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=VSPASCAL&ft=PROB
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
I now know the name of the lead developer of Pascal/VS (Steve Mueller).
I remember some (sometimes heated) discussions with Steve back in the
day. Some were about Pascal, but he also got into the OCO debate that
was raging around that time. IIRC he was involved with at least one
other somewhat non-mainstream IBM product for VM, but my aging brain
is not producing the name of it.

In general you can browse and to some extent search the VMSHARE
archives by starting at the main page
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare
but the list and search functions are *very* strange and limited (to
some extent they try to duplicate the way VMSHARE itself worked), and
I believe Google et. al. do not have search access, assuming they
honour robots.txt .
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
And I read with interest that Melinda Varian worked on the FTP
component of TCP/IP for VM, using VS/Pascal :-)
Melinda was at times very self-deprecating, but certainly did not lack
experience with many different technical things.
Post by Bernd Oppolzer ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
It seems that the Stanford people migrated from their own compiler
to Pascal/VS in the 1980s, but McGill university improved and continued to use
the Stanford compiler until the end of the Music era; that was my starting
point in 2011 (I downloaded the compiler from the SIM390 emulator
running MUSIC/SP and ported it to VM/370 R6 on Hercules, first;
in the beginning pass 1 had about 6000 lines and today it has almost 16000,
and the source program scanner is a new separate module,
2500 more lines).
There is reference to several Pascal compilers on VMSHARE. Discussion
there suggests that Pascal 8000 it was at some point a commercial
product, but I suspect the version on Hercules is reasonably
unencumbered.

Tony H.
Bernd Oppolzer berndoppolzer@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 21:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Thank you very much for that ...

For completeness: the New Stanford compiler produces P-Code in the first
pass (PASCAL1).
This P-Code is the translated to 370 machine code in the second pass
(PASCAL2) ...
that's why it is possible, BTW, to link external FORTRAN and ASSEMBLER
objects since
the last release (December 2017).

But: this is not true for the Windows, OS/2 and Unix variants; there the
P-Code is
executed directly by a P-Code interpreter (PCINT) ... that's why (at the
moment)
only external Pascal objects can be called on these platforms.

Apart from this difference, the language is exactly the same on all
those environments.

More information here:
http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm
and here:
https://www.facebook.com/StanfordPascal/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

Thanks, kind regards

Bernd
Post by Joe Monk ***@gmail.com [hercules-390]
Well you're in luck then.
The author/maintainer of the PASCAL compiler is on this list ...
You can find his really cool work here: http://bernd-oppolzer.de/job9.htm
As you probably know, pascal compilers produce p-code which is
executed by the OS specific runtime. So as long as you have the p-code
you are good to go.
Joe
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 19:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
The challenge here is we do not have source
code for 5 binary modules(PASCAL) in z/VM 6.3.
Would like to have solution to migrate these binaries.
Can you provide more information about
these modules?

When were they written? The VM load module
format seems to have changed between VM/370
and z/VM so that you can't take z/VM modules
and run them on VM/370. You can take a VM/370
module and run it on z/VM though.

Can you show the size of the modules,
like this:

/(0009) listf mvsendec module a (date Filename Filetype Fm Format Recs Blocks Date Time MVSENDEC MODULE A1 V 59184 3 79 10/16/16 1:04 Ready; T=0.01/0.01 19:12:20

And provide a hex dump, like this:

000000 000201C8 00020000 0002DF30 0002DF30 ...H............
000010 000125D6 00000000 00000000 00000161 ...O.........../
000020 4CD000AE 00000000 00AE0000 02C5E2C4 <}...........ESD
000030 00000000 0004990C 0000137E E9F0F0F0 ......r....=Z000
000040 F4F9F940 00000000 00000000 00000000 499 ............
000050 F0F1F2F3 F4F5F6F7 F8F9C1C2 C3C4C5C6 0123456789ABCDEF
000060 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000070 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000080 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000090 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000A0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000B0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000C0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000D0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000E0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
0000F0 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000100 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000110 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000120 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000130 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000140 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000150 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 ................
000160 A4A28187 857A4094 A5A28595 84858340 usage: mvsendec
000170 4C859583 82618485 83826185 9583A361 <encb/decb/enct/
000180 848583A3 6E404C89 95868993 856E404C dect> <infile> <
000190 96A4A386 8993856E 15008595 838200C5 outfile>..encb.E
0001A0 D5C3C200 859583A3 00C5D5C3 E3008485 NCB.enct.ENCT.de
0001B0 838200C4 C5C3C200 848583A3 00C4C5C3 cb.DECB.dect.DEC
0001C0 E3009585 858440A3 9640A297 85838986 T.need to specif
0001D0 A8408595 83968485 40969940 84858396 y encode or deco
0001E0 8485404D 82899581 99A84096 9940A385 de (binary or te
0001F0 A7A35D15 00990099 8200A600 86899385 xt)..r.rb.w.file
000200 40969785 95408599 99969915 00A68200 open error..wb.
000210 C7C3C3D4 E5E25A5A 58F0F008 07FFC26E GCCMVS!!.00...B>
000220 00021228 47F0F00A 04D4C1C9 D50090EC .....00..MAIN...
000230 D00C18CF 58F0D04C 50D0F004 50F0D008 }....0}<&}0.&0}.
000240 18DF41F0 F14850FD 004C47F0 C02CC26E ...01.&..<.0{.B>
000250 05C018B1 58A0C68E D203D068 C692D203 .{....F.K.}.FkK.


So that we can try to guess which compiler
was used. Also look in the hex dump for
any dates, or any copyright notices, that
might tell you the name of the compiler.

Also, is it not possible to rewrite these
5 utilities in a different language, like C?
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Option 1. We have installed Hercules(trial version)
Hercules is free, not a trial.
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
and z/VM 6.0(free version)
z/VM is a trial, not free.
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
and executing these binaries in Hercules emulator
Yes, you can certainly try that, in fact,
you SHOULD try it, because it will
answer one of your questions about
whether your Pascal compiler has a
requirement for a runtime library.
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Option 2: Migrate the binaries to z/OS
environment and execute them
I think it is (nominally) impossible to do that,
because of the different load module formats.
As I said, I don't think you can even go from
z/VM to VM/370.
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Option 1: Can z/VM 6.3 be installed on
Hercules Emulator ? If so, we can check for license cost.
Yes it can, but the z/VM trial will expire after
a short while, and then you will be running
it illegally. And IBM will not sell you a proper
licensed version of z/VM, because they don't
like the fact that you are running on someone
else's hardware.

However, if you're willing to buy a z/VM license,
can't you run it on a partition on the same
hardware your z/OS runs on?
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
To execute the binary modules in Hercules
do we need any PASCAL compiler/loader,
etc or any other third party software to be installed ?
I suggest you install the trial z/VM on Hercules
so that the above question can be answered.

And if it works without any extra runtime
required, then try using vmarc to take the
module from z/VM to the VM/370 sixpack 1.2
and see what happens. Don't bother doing
that if it doesn't even work on z/VM though.
Post by Tcs Souji ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Option 2: Is it possible ? Any idea on how
to migrate and execute ?
Any support information that can be shared
will be of great help !
Actually, I have thought of another option.
If it is S/370 code rather than P-code, you
can probably disassemble the VM code,
and then assemble it on MVS.

And actually, if you do that, you may be able
to run on VM/370 after all. Do you know how
much memory these 5 utilities use?

BFN. Paul.
' Richard Pinion' rpinion@netscape.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-11 15:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html> <head> </head> <body style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none">&nbsp;</span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text" > <p><DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">You can investigate IBM's zPDT environment.&nbsp; I'm not sure</FONT><DIV><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">if zPDT is available to be used for the type of processing you</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">want&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: small;">to do.&nbsp; I think its main focus is for third party mainframe</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: small;">software development.&nbsp; I would start by asking your local IBM</SPAN></DIV><DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2">representative.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif">https://www-356.ibm.com/partnerworld/wps/servlet/ContentHandler/pw_com_zpdt</FONT><BR></FONT><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">--- hercules-***@yahoogroups.com wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">From: "***@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]" &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">To: &lt;hercules-***@yahoogroups.com&gt;</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Support on Hercules Emulator for VM/370 V6.3</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;">Date: 11 Dec 2017 13:23:04 &#43;0000</SPAN><BR><BR> <SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN> <DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;"> <DIV> <DIV> <P>---In hercules-***@yahoogroups.com, &lt;***@...&gt; wrote :<BR>
<BR>
&gt; We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup. <BR>
&gt; We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our<BR>
&gt; applications on Mainframe hardware. <BR>
&gt; We are planning to move out of Mainframe<BR>
&gt; environment and investigating for Hercules emulator option. <BR>
<BR>
If you wish to move off mainframe and onto<BR>
x64 or whatever, why do you still wish to use<BR>
z/VM? Can't you run on Linux/x64 rather than<BR>
do emulation? Running natively is something<BR>
like 70 times faster than on Hercules.<BR>
<BR>
(GCCMVS can rebuild itself on native x64<BR>
in about 1 minute while it takes about 70<BR>
minutes under Hercules - numbers not<BR>
super-accurate as weren't done after a<BR>
fresh reboot).<BR>
<BR>
How many applications do you have on the<BR>
z/VM system currently, and what language<BR>
are they written in, and are they 24-bit,<BR>
31-bit or 64-bit applications? Do you know<BR>
how much memory the biggest application<BR>
uses?<BR>
<BR>
Do you want to migrate the applications from<BR>
Hercules&#43;z/VM to Linux/x64 slowly or all at<BR>
once?<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Below are the few queries to proceed with the setup:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; 1. Could you please let us know if we can<BR>
&gt; install z/VM 6.3 version on Hercules emulator.<BR>
&gt; If so please share the download link and installation guide.<BR>
<BR>
Do you wish to do this legally or illegally? If you<BR>
want to do it legally, there is a trial version of<BR>
z/VM available, but I think it has a time limit of<BR>
3 months or something. Also, if you're already<BR>
running z/VM on mainframe hardware legally,<BR>
you may be able to legally use those same z/VM<BR>
installation tapes to run on Hercules as part<BR>
of a "disaster recovery" test.<BR>
<BR>
&gt; 2. Any official support group to get help for this<BR>
&gt; product in case of any issues in future?<BR>
<BR>
Hercules is a freeware product, so you can<BR>
post your questions here or in H390-VM or<BR>
hercules-os380 and you can get random<BR>
free support. Or you can presumably hire<BR>
someone around here as a contractor to<BR>
fix problems.<BR>
<BR>
BFN. Paul.<BR>
</P>

</DIV>



<DIV style="color: #fff;height: 0;"></DIV>













</DIV></DIV><BR>&nbsp;<BR><HR>Netscape.&nbsp; Just the Net You Need.</DIV></div></div></p>

</div>


<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>






<div style="clear:both"> </div>

<div id="fromDMARC" style="margin-top: 10px;">
<hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
Posted by: &quot; Richard Pinion&quot; &lt;***@netscape.com&gt; <hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
</div>
<div style="clear:both"> </div>

<table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; color: #2D50FD;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" >
<a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/messages/82707;_ylc=X3oDMTJwYjUzYzd1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEbXNnSWQDODI3MDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNTEzMDA2NzM3?act=reply&messageNum=82707">Reply via web post</a>
</td>
<td>&bull;</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" >
<a href="mailto:***@netscape.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bhercules-390%5D%20Re%3A%20Support%20on%20Hercules%20Emulator%20for%20VM%2F370%20V6%2E3" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">
Reply to sender </a>
</td>
<td>&bull;</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;">
<a href="mailto:hercules-***@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bhercules-390%5D%20Re%3A%20Support%20on%20Hercules%20Emulator%20for%20VM%2F370%20V6%2E3" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">
Reply to group </a>
</td>
<td>&bull;</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;" >
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcWUyN2JzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDbnRwYwRzdGltZQMxNTEzMDA2NzM3" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a>
</td>
<td>&bull;</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px;color: #2D50FD;" >
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/conversations/topics/82704;_ylc=X3oDMTM1ZGFiMTluBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEbXNnSWQDODI3MDcEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxNTEzMDA2NzM3BHRwY0lkAzgyNzA0" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a>
(4)
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>


<div id="megaphoneModule">
<hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
<div>
<div class="stream" style="margin-bottom:10px;">
<div style="background-color:white;">
<div class="sn-img" style="display:inline;"><img name="tn_file" style="padding:0px 10px;vertical-align:top;margin-top:5px;" src="https://s.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/megaphone/1464031581_phpFA8bON" height="82" width="82"></div>
<div class="mod-txt" style="display:inline-block;">
<a rel="nofollow" name="sub_url" target="_blank" href="https://yho.com/1wwmgg" style="color:#0000FF;display:block;margin-left:5px;text-decoration:none;"><span style="font-size:15px;">Have you tried the highest rated email app?</span></a>
<div style="max-width:530px;padding:2px 5px;">With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div> </div>

<hr style="height:2px ; border-width:0; color:#E3E3E3; background-color:#E3E3E3;">
</div>

<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


<div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;">

<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

Community email addresses:<BR>
&nbsp; Post message: hercules-***@yahoogroups.com<BR>
&nbsp; Subscribe:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com<BR>
&nbsp; Unsubscribe:&nbsp; hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com<BR>
&nbsp; List owner:&nbsp;&nbsp; hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com<BR>
<BR>
Files and archives at:<BR>
&nbsp; <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390</a><BR>
<BR>
Get the latest version of Hercules from:<BR>
&nbsp; <a href="http://www.hercules-390.org">http://www.hercules-390.org</a><BR>
<BR>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->

</div>




<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">

<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZTg0azZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdmdocARzdGltZQMxNTEzMDA2NzM3" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span>

<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
<li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;">
<span class="cat"><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hercules-390/members/all;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbmQ1dDJoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEc2VjA3Z0bARzbGsDdm1icnMEc3RpbWUDMTUxMzAwNjczNw--" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span>
<span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">4</span>
</li>
</ul>
</div>


<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcmhlNnFwBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzM0MjA2NARncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyODE5NDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDZ2ZwBHN0aW1lAzE1MTMwMDY3Mzc-" style="float: left;"><img src="Loading Image..." height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;"> &bull; <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style="text-decoration: none;">Privacy</a> &bull; <a href="mailto:hercules-390-***@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> &bull; <a href="https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div>
</div>
<br>

<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->

</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->


<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">

<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->



</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->

<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>

<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=342064/grpspId=1707281942/msgId=82707/stime=1513006737" width="1" height="1"> <br>

<img src="http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=515FB27823A7407E&a=10001310322279&js=no&resp=img&cf12=CP" width="1" height="1">

<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->

</body>

<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}

#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}

#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}

#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}

#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}

#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}

#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}

#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}

#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}

#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}

.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}

.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}

.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}

.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}

.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}

blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}

.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}

.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}

dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}

dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}

dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}

div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}

div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}

div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}

div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}

div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}

.green {
color: #628c2a;
}

.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}

o {
font-size: 0;
}

#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}

#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}

#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}

#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}

#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}

.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}

#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}

#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}


#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}

#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}

#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}

#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}

#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}

#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}

#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}

#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}

#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>

<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->
kerravon86@yahoo.com.au [hercules-390]
2017-12-11 16:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ' Richard Pinion' ***@netscape.com [hercules-390]
You can investigate IBM's zPDT environment.
I'm not sure if zPDT is available to be used for
the type of processing you want to do.
As far as I know, zPDT is explicitly not allowed
to be used for a production load, because of
this exact thing - IBM doesn't want people
migrating off their expensive IBM hardware.

BFN. Paul.
Mike Schwab Mike.A.Schwab@gmail.com [hercules-390]
2017-12-12 04:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Can the application run under VM/370 (or VM/380)?
Post by ***@yahoo.com [hercules-390]
Hi Support team,
We are looking support for Hercules emulator setup.
We are using z/VM370 version 6.3 for our applications on Mainframe hardware.
We are planning to move out of Mainframe environment and investigating for
Hercules emulator option.
1. Could you please let us know if we can install z/VM 6.3 version on
Hercules emulator. If so please share the download link and installation
guide.
2. Any official support group to get help for this product in case of any issues in future?
Thank you.
Appreciate your support please.
Regards,
Soujanya
--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
Loading...